Still concentrating a Hammond in two pounds and 1 gallon

[Theo Verelst]

If you live under the assumption, might sound more like a corollary, that all that improvement in technology brings is less weight and more quality power, the only products of significance would be super light and small computer systems to run music programs on that by now are so perfect, there's nothing more than a buyers market where customers of new musical instruments invest in, well, the perfect Hammond sound at less than a kilo and taking the space of amobile phone.

 

Wait, you would need speakers, and those 100W Leslies need power. Or do they come in milk package size and weight, too?

 

My opinion is clear: those software makers have made nothing much that makes me eagerly want their musical software, there's of course a computer-becomes-more-powerful curve going on, and it seems people are a bit at a loss what do do with that...

 

T.

[Song80s]

The tech in music production is very ambitious, especially looking backwards 10-20 years.

 

Yes, our discerning music ears pivot when a software B3 thru studio monitors is compared to a Hammond B3 + Leslie in a nice room.

 

same with a grand piano in a nice room vs a well sampled AP thru speakers.

 

And its not just all about us. I consider my listening audience. They say the instrument realism is amazing.

I mostly take the 'realism ' for granted and get picky for more/better.

 

will we see the same rate of 'improvement ' over the next 10 years vs the last 10 years ?

[ not a question for the purists ]

 

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

Reaity rears it's ugly head.

 

First requirement for going with all analog technology is a huge budget. Second requirement is a spacious, great sounding room that is fully isolated from all external noise (we hold a monthly open mic in a great sounding space with a tuned and maintained Steinway baby grand. It is located at a 4 way stop in a moderately busy area, when a Harley comes to that intersection it will be heard). Third requrement is either a seasoned, top notch tech on staff or learning how to refurbish and properly tweak vintage gear like a lovely old Hammond C3 (this is where the huge budget comes in, paying the tech!!!!).

 

So, fully and correctly wired and filtered, properly isolated floors, walls etc. It isn't going to be cheap and anything less is just settling. This is to say nothing of gigging, which I do constantly.

 

Acceptance of unexpected interruptions due to equipment failure is assumed. Vacuum tubes have an estimated duty cycle, some exceed, some fail early. The vintage tubes made in Europe, the USA and to some degree Canada (I have some sweet Canadian made Sylvania 12ax7s) are certainly better made than current Russian and other offerings. The huge budget will come in handy finding tested, top quality vintage NOS tubes, especially matched pairs and quads for power amplifiers. And, they will still go bad, probably not at your convenience. In a gigging context, the pros who make sufficient pay will have roadies load in their lovely tube amps with backups, hacks like me bring a single solid state amp that will not fail. I am not paid to futz around with dying vacuum tubes. In 40 plus years of gigging, I've had enough vacuum tube failures, done with that forever.

 

If you simply want to play and listen, now you are golden. If you want to record these instruments and do them justice, the fun has just begun. Ever mic a Leslie so the recording actually sounded like what you were hearing? I don't recall ever hearing a recording of a Hammond with Leslies that sounded like the ones I've heard in the real world. The same is true of symphonies, my small gourd m'bira with stereo tremolo holes, 12 string guitars, singers etc.

 

Living in a small but pleasant condo with some external noise issues and a minimal budget, my path is clear. As an example, the IK Multimedia Leslie doesn't sound just like a real Leslie in a great room. Since a recording of a real Leslie in a great room doesn't sound like a real Leslie in a great room either, I have other things to worry about.

 

It is important that we all have our fun! I do hope you are having yours, I am doing the best I can under the circumstances. For me, it is worse to allow "this isn't quite good enough" to impinge on my desire to be creative. That's my choice, everybody gets to make their own choice based on circumstance. Cheers, Kuru

[Theo Verelst]

From my point of view, it's like there's a lot of electronics going on, and of course computers and DSP chips have gotten more powerful, but there's down-weighing on the technology, and there's little it seems that is in praise of the higher ways of progress.

 

In the 70s there was Lexicon, maybe some of the synthesizer companies and then there was digital recording, more affordable equipment, but the music wasn't making all too much of the current technology happen it seems, and certainly current music doesn't create much of a Zeitgeist to pull up scientific efforts with.

 

Without certain bodies of people, the copyist and treacherous culture, and the appeal of that music culture to let's say the nerdy fellow man, certain temptations wouldn't be as effective, and the uplifting of people's spirit with modern musical instruments would work so much better. That's based on having been raised with good music and some taste, I suppose I feel for the often young persons who endure some dj pooring out his (her) music on suspecting audiences, and prefer a much stronger actual music scene, of the capacity of the people I was lucky to hear some of when I grew up.

 

T

[Song80s]

this is an excellent discussion and touches on the intersection or marriage

of creativity , music production, and brute processing power, plus interesting software programming.

 

That alone is a lot to chew on.

[KuruPrionz]

From my point of view, it's like there's a lot of electronics going on, and of course computers and DSP chips have gotten more powerful, but there's down-weighing on the technology, and there's little it seems that is in praise of the higher ways of progress.

 

In the 70s there was Lexicon, maybe some of the synthesizer companies and then there was digital recording, more affordable equipment, but the music wasn't making all too much of the current technology happen it seems, and certainly current music doesn't create much of a Zeitgeist to pull up scientific efforts with.

 

Without certain bodies of people, the copyist and treacherous culture, and the appeal of that music culture to let's say the nerdy fellow man, certain temptations wouldn't be as effective, and the uplifting of people's spirit with modern musical instruments would work so much better. That's based on having been raised with good music and some taste, I suppose I feel for the often young persons who endure some dj pooring out his (her) music on suspecting audiences, and prefer a much stronger actual music scene, of the capacity of the people I was lucky to hear some of when I grew up.

 

T

 

We agree completely on this.

Technology has made it very easy for people to jump in and create "music".

 

On the positive side, it makes it possible for artists to create something that would have been out of reach 20 years ago.

 

I remember very well purchasing an album because I loved the single on the radio and then discovering that there were maybe 2-3 songs out of 12 on the LP that were any good at all. I would have done better buying the single!!!

As my tastes expanded I realized this was not the norm for Jazz or Classical musics.

That bar was raised in the 60's with artists like The Beatles for Pop and Marty Robbins for Country (yes, Country is music! :- D) started making albums with much better songs on them overall.

 

Now that the crap has been filtered out we can safely wax nostalgic for times gone by but the reality is that there was a ton of crap music back then too.

 

The good news is - there are many like myself - folks of humble means who now have access to tools that allow us to create, record and share the music that we have a personal investment in hearing.

The difficulty is finding the gold nugget in the sand on the beach. There is an unsurmountable surplus of crap music. Nobody will ever live long enough to sift through the music that comes out in one year and find the good music.

 

So it is very easy to become pessimistic. I am positive, have been recording my own songs written over a span of 45 years or so and I will be playing guitar on 2 albums of solid, beautiful songs a friend of mine has written as well.

I am late to create a legacy but not too late!!!!

Cheers, Kuru

 

[Song80s]

[quote=

Now that the crap has been filtered out we can safely wax nostalgic for times gone by but the reality is that there was a ton of crap music back then too.

 

The good news is - there are many like myself - folks of humble means who now have access to tools that allow us to create, record and share the music that we have a personal investment in hearing.

The difficulty is finding the gold nugget in the sand on the beach. There is an unsurmountable surplus of crap music. Nobody will ever live long enough to sift through the music that comes out in one year and find the good music.

 

 

that's a segueway . The 'swamping ' and ease of availability of millions of new songs daily on the digital music sites. The cumulative volume of mediocrity [?]can obscure the next " Beatles " or whatever starving brilliant artist.

The artist has to find a way to rise above and beyond the volume. Making great new music , by itself, is not enough, IMO, to get at significant recognition.

 

I am sure a similar challenge has been the case for the artist for many decades, even centuries. But more currently, I think there was a tipping point when media got digitized a few decades back.

[KuruPrionz]

[quote=

Now that the crap has been filtered out we can safely wax nostalgic for times gone by but the reality is that there was a ton of crap music back then too.

 

The good news is - there are many like myself - folks of humble means who now have access to tools that allow us to create, record and share the music that we have a personal investment in hearing.

The difficulty is finding the gold nugget in the sand on the beach. There is an unsurmountable surplus of crap music. Nobody will ever live long enough to sift through the music that comes out in one year and find the good music.

 

 

that's a segueway . The 'swamping ' and ease of availability of millions of new songs daily on the digital music sites. The cumulative volume of mediocrity [?]can obscure the next " Beatles " or whatever starving brilliant artist.

The artist has to find a way to rise above and beyond the volume. Making great new music , by itself, is not enough, IMO, to get at significant recognition.

 

I am sure a similar challenge has been the case for the artist for many decades, even centuries. But more currently, I think there was a tipping point when media got digitized a few decades back.

 

I don't disagree but sadly I see no simple solution moving forward. I have forged a writing/recording alliance with a creative, quirky young lady who has a unique voice and an intuition for good grooves. She is also beautiful, a plus and happily in a long term relationship, another plus. I am just another old guy, need a face to put in front of the songs. I don't know what will happen, right now it is fun and good things are in flux. At least it is a proven strategy...

 

[Song80s]

[q.

 

I don't disagree but sadly I see no simple solution moving forward. I have forged a writing/recording alliance with a creative, quirky young lady who has a unique voice and an intuition for good grooves. She is also beautiful, a plus and happily in a long term relationship, another plus. I am just another old guy, need a face to put in front of the songs. I don't know what will happen, right now it is fun and good things are in flux. At least it is a proven strategy...

 

thats a golden formula. I recommend a partner/copyright contract just in case the pennies and dollars find your recording work.

 

Its rare when you can find 2 musicians who want to get clear ground rules of engagement. Mostly, its try as you go or lets see what happens when we are rich/famous etc etc

[KuruPrionz]

[q.

 

I don't disagree but sadly I see no simple solution moving forward. I have forged a writing/recording alliance with a creative, quirky young lady who has a unique voice and an intuition for good grooves. She is also beautiful, a plus and happily in a long term relationship, another plus. I am just another old guy, need a face to put in front of the songs. I don't know what will happen, right now it is fun and good things are in flux. At least it is a proven strategy...

 

thats a golden formula. I recommend a partner/copyright contract just in case the pennies and dollars find your recording work.

 

Its rare when you can find 2 musicians who want to get clear ground rules of engagement. Mostly, its try as you go or lets see what happens when we are rich/famous etc etc

 

Yes, I have a good friend who spent 37 years doing EVERYTHING at a local TV station and he is well equipped with all manner of contracts. I'm sure he has one that could be "adjusted" to suit the situation.

Much cheaper to have it reviewed than written!

 

To add, I did a "one chord song" jam band on a couple of Weds evenings at a local brew pub as sort of "secret audition" and got Katie up there for a short set. She has that charisma "thang", really gets into the music and draws the attention of everybody in the room (not just the guys). You don't see that often, I was able to watch everybody watch her. Totally reliable, if I don't contact her (this was a test, several instances), she will contact me. If she says she will be there at 1pm, she is there. Very busy kid but straight up with no games coming at me. Has an incredibly well behaved pit bull also, a good sign. Bentley lies down on the floor and waits until our session is over. He doesn't sniff, poke around or do anything at all, impressive.

 

So I think I found a live one!

[Outkaster]

I'm trying to understand what the point of this thread is. I will tell you one thing you never get the real presence of a Hammond and Leslie, there isn't anything like it. No clone will ever get that. The more I work with theses instruments it becomes apparent.

[Song80s]

I'm trying to understand what the point of this thread is. I will tell you one thing you never get the real presence of a Hammond and Leslie, there isn't anything like it. No clone will ever get that. The more I work with theses instruments it becomes apparent.

 

its not that difficult. Get past the usual keyboard gear etc etc. Think stream of consciousness.

 

Go to Theo's 2nd post as we expound further.

[Outkaster]

Too much trouble Greg.

[Song80s]

Too much trouble Greg.

 

LOL. I know. Some of us have time to kick it around

[Theo Verelst]

It's possible to do much better Hammond sims, for example, it's also possible to produce a sound that's alright for transistor radio and little home speakers, but not achieving the full sound. So the thread title was to accentuate the contrast in striving for some actually achievable, and for something impossible.

[KuruPrionz]

It's possible to do much better Hammond sims, for example, it's also possible to produce a sound that's alright for transistor radio and little home speakers, but not achieving the full sound. So the thread title was to accentuate the contrast in striving for some actually achievable, and for something impossible.

 

I've not tried this one, have you? It looks interesting, possibly a step up from the previous offerings.

 

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/hammondb3x/

 

They are one of those companies where waiting can bring stupid low prices. $300 is a bit more than I would pay. The Leslie is really good, I got that in a sale last Sept - buy one get 10 free. The TRacks version is the one to get, you can use it as an autonomous plugin.

Still, real speakers with stuff spinning out in the real world is not going to come alive out of a pair of studio monitors no matter how we may wish for it.

And that is your impossible. So it goes...

Cheers, Kuru

 

 

[El Lobo]

I will tell you one thing you never get the real presence of a Hammond and Leslie, there isn't anything like it. No clone will ever get that. The more I work with theses instruments it becomes apparent.

Still, real speakers with stuff spinning out in the real world is not going to come alive out of a pair of studio monitors no matter how we may wish for it.

And that is your impossible. So it goes...

I always say there is no substitute for actually moving air. You will never be able to simulate the sound of standing in a room with the rotary speaker swirling the sound around.