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Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA #2995960 06/26/19 07:48 AM
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J. Dan Offline OP
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How many of you run direct? Pedal board or amp sim and just a powered wedge? Do you ever do feedback?

One thing I've noticed is that if the volume is just right and the position/angle, etc is just right, you can KIND of make it work, but not the same as an amp. So just curious how you guys handle that? Sometimes I get feedback I don't want, as well. A PPA is full range and directional and doesn't always give the feedback you want, when you want, where you want, if you know hat I mean. I'm sure pickup selection matters as well. I've noticed a huge difference between my Strat and my Explorer.

Disclosure: I'm not a "real" guitar player. I'm a keyboard player who plays guitar on some songs....thus the light guitar rig. I might only play on half a dozen songs in a night and it's largely just rhythm. Depends on the gig - I mostly do fill in stuff and just to fill what is needed for the gig.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
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Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2995990 06/26/19 01:40 PM
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Been using Multi-FX with Amp Modeling for a long time, for ease of set-up, fewer plugs & cables, less gear to haul, you get the idea. I usually go direct into the FOH system, no Amps, no Monitors to haul that way, and I can have stereo sound. When I do bring an Amp for my MFX, it's a Keyboard Amp, not a Guitar Amp. Sending Amp Modeling into a Guitar Amp sounds bloody awful, IME; sending Speaker sims through effects is even worse.

I LOVE controlled Feedback, one of my favorite sounds, and I had one of the original Boss Feedbacker pedals as a mainstay in my pedalboard for years. Finally sold it when vintage prices became absurd.

Currently for feedback, I either use the Feedbacker effect built into my Boss MFX, or a Digitech Freqout pedal on my pedalboard. FWIW, I'm very impressed with the Freqout, however, unlike the Boss Feedbacker, it will not work as a Sustainer. With the Boss effect, the Feedback sustains for as long as you hold the pedal down; the Freqout tracks your Guitar's signal, and will drop off as your signal drops, no matter how long you hold the pedal down. OTOH, the Freqout is far more versatile than the Boss effect, in terms of sounds and settings. Turn "DRY" & "MOMENTARY" to Off, and listen to what it does; you won't get that sound out of a cranked Tube Amp. If you need feedback, check out the Freqout.


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Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2996001 06/26/19 02:38 PM
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Back in the day we avoided feedback at all costs due to the genre(s) we played (i.e. Country, Country Rock and classic Rock and Roll, Rockabilly, Jazz, etc.). I would send my keyboard direct to the PA. Each guitar player and the bass player had to control their stage and venue volume and were not allowed in the PA. The two Sax, flute and the trumpet players were mic'ed. The drums were not mic'ed. There were usually 3 vocal mics. This was with a full band. The sized down version was one sax, 2 guitars, bass and drums with 3 vocal mics. Only the vocals and the sax mic went to the PA.


Fast forward and everything can be mic'ed or go direct today even though the band disappeared on me (some of us still get together now and then. We still don't use feedback so I can't be of much help. Winston gives excellent advice above and maybe Scott will chime in. They have more experience working the FOH or with the FOH. I can run my multi-effects pedal and my amp with XLR outs and guitar and mic direct. But, I'm still in the avoid the feedback mode LOL! I think Winston's suggestion of using a feedback pedal is a great idea as you have some control much like using pedals for OD and Distortion at lower volumes instead of cranking up a tube amp and having to mic it.? For me in the guitar player mode "going direct" can mean going direct into an amp without pedals as opposed to going direct to the PA. My pedal board and my multi-effects are no longer in use. I'm only using my new compressor pedal for a clean boost these days. Good luck in your search J. Dan! cool


Take care, Larryz
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2996003 06/26/19 02:55 PM
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Can't help with that J.Dan, all I can say is; that I never got the same effect as a cranked tube amp, and positioning myself in front of the cabs for that feedback and over/undertones. Nowadays I sit at home with a small amp and pedal board and practice my stuff at super low volumes. Haven't played out since the late 60's and early 70's.


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Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: desertbluesman] #2996123 06/27/19 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by desertbluesman
Can't help with that J.Dan, all I can say is; that I never got the same effect as a cranked tube amp, and positioning myself in front of the cabs for that feedback and over/undertones. Nowadays I sit at home with a small amp and pedal board and practice my stuff at super low volumes. Haven't played out since the late 60's and early 70's.


DBM, you bring up a few good points.. First, the reason I don't bring all that out is as I said I have a whole keyboard rig to bring out and don't play as much guitar, but that brought me to you practicing at home....

LOT's of folks are now going to these little 15W boutique amps. How does THAT change the way you approach controlled feedback?


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2996132 06/27/19 06:54 AM
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I've gone direct to PA and monitors with a DigiTech GNX4 digital-modeler/multi-effects and various pedals before and after it, and also paired that along with a real-live tube-amp simultaneously (THAT was pretty cool, "best of both" and VERY versatile). My Boss RT-20 Leslie-sim pedal feeding Left to the amp and Right to the DigiTech GNX4 and PA and monitors created a HUGE stereo perceived rotation-effect that was incredible.

My little Fuchs Lucky 7 (7 watt tube-head) came stock with a seemingly magical 12AX7/ECC83 preamp-tube in socket V1 that makes a big difference in singing harmonic-overtone-feedback; I tried other tubes, and quickly figured out that I wanted to LEAVE THAT ONE IN THERE. grin

Now, I've also used a secret-weapon for musical feedback at any volume, clean or dirty...

...my beloved and fairly rare Maniac Music Sustainiac Model C 'acoustic feedback generator'- which induces actual acoustic-feedback and literally endless sustain by actually physically vibrating the guitar via a vibrating-transducer that clamps onto the guitar's headstock... Incredibly cool. rawk

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Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2996208 06/27/19 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Dan
DBM, you bring up a few good points.. First, the reason I don't bring all that out is as I said I have a whole keyboard rig to bring out and don't play as much guitar, but that brought me to you practicing at home....LOT's of folks are now going to these little 15W boutique amps. How does THAT change the way you approach controlled feedback?


My little Egnater Tweaker head is 15 watts, and I use it at very low volumes. However it is pretty loud when I turn it up, Deluxe Reverb loud. I do not use controlled feedback, but I do use a tube overdrive stomp which imitates controlled feedback and under/overtones to a small degree, so I just use the sustain of the pedal to get a small amount of that. Of course it is not like my long gone hundred watt Plexi and the Sunn 6-12 cabinet, but it suffices for home use. If I played out of course I would use my Hot Rod Deluxe, but I do not foresee that happening in this lifetime. I think the Tweaker head could stand up to a moderately loud situation however. I was surprised at how loud it is back when I bought it.


dbm
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Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2996370 06/28/19 01:57 AM
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Most of the time, I cheat - I touch the headstock to the amp cabinet, and mute the strings I don't want to have feed back.

However, I've also had good luck when using a Bose L1 as an FRFR amp. I hold the guitar neck parallel to the linear array column, and the feedback is controlled and predictable smile

J. Dan, I double on keys and have found a way to emulate guitar feedback with synths. Basically it involves layering a sine wave 19 semitones (octave+fifth) above the fundamental, and bringing it in with a pedal or wheel to add "faux feedback." If you add a second feedback note, tune it 31 semitones (2 octaves+fifth) above the main sound. Have the first feedback note decay over about 3 to 4 seconds to a lower sustain level, while the second note fades up during that time...it actually sounds pretty cool.

To hear this effect applied to a synth sound, go to https://tinyurl.com/y7njnm2y and check out the solos at 16:05 and 17:03. To hear this technique applied to sampled guitar, go the 7:35 second mark at https://tinyurl.com/y7tdntdf.

For more information, go to the Tips section at http://www.craiganderton.com, and scroll down to the tip "171117 Synthesizer Meets Feedback Guitar." It's fun smile

Last edited by Anderton; 06/28/19 02:03 AM.
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: Anderton] #2996412 06/28/19 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
Most of the time, I cheat - I touch the headstock to the amp cabinet, and mute the strings I don't want to have feed back.

However, I've also had good luck when using a Bose L1 as an FRFR amp. I hold the guitar neck parallel to the linear array column, and the feedback is controlled and predictable smile

J. Dan, I double on keys and have found a way to emulate guitar feedback with synths. Basically it involves layering a sine wave 19 semitones (octave+fifth) above the fundamental, and bringing it in with a pedal or wheel to add "faux feedback." If you add a second feedback note, tune it 31 semitones (2 octaves+fifth) above the main sound. Have the first feedback note decay over about 3 to 4 seconds to a lower sustain level, while the second note fades up during that time...it actually sounds pretty cool.

To hear this effect applied to a synth sound, go to https://tinyurl.com/y7njnm2y and check out the solos at 16:05 and 17:03. To hear this technique applied to sampled guitar, go the 7:35 second mark at https://tinyurl.com/y7tdntdf.

For more information, go to the Tips section at http://www.craiganderton.com, and scroll down to the tip "171117 Synthesizer Meets Feedback Guitar." It's fun smile


Good to see you here 'bouts, Mr. Anderton! Rock on. Y' know, some day, I'll hafta build that long overdue Quadrafuzz... rawk cool


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Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2996609 06/29/19 04:28 PM
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Great tips here. Yes I know about putting feedback effects on keys, was specifically asking about real feedback live on guitar.

That said, I do have a keyboard solo patch that has that feedback effect. On my Kronos, the ribbon controller brings it in. On top of that, I layered 2 patches with different pitch bend amounts going through the same amp sim, so that when I bend, it creates this awesome dissonance with sidebands. We did a bigger show last night and I decided to bust out the Keytar - an old Roland AX7 with wireless MIDI. It took a MIDI solutions box in the middle, but I managed to get the D Beam to control the "feedback". Turned out pretty awesome. End of the solo, I used my left thumb to sustain the last note while I used my right hand to trigger the feedback with the D Beam then do a final dive using the ribbon with my left index finger. Fun stuff!

But that was last night. Tonight I'm back to keys and guitar....bringing out my strat through the pod.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2997228 07/04/19 09:06 AM
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Shifting gears a little to feedback elimination or avoidance.....

I'm, in the rare situation, playing some lead this Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Specifically actually harmonizing with the lead guitar, but lead none the less. In rehearsal I'm getting unwanted feedback. I have to hear myself, but running through the pod and my QSC K10 even at lower practice volumes seems to have a tendancy to feed back. I can only imagine what it will do at stage volumes.

What SHOULD help is that I plan on using IEM's. Only problem is that there will still be a wedge as backup and I think it will be the same mix as my IEM's, which means if I have my guitar in my IEM's, the wedge will make it feedback. I don't see an answer other than having a separate mix for the wedge.

Thoughts?

FWIW, song is Detroit Rock City. I'm of course playing the chords, but also the higher harmony on the solo.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2997229 07/04/19 09:15 AM
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If it's a powered monitor, I'm thinking of just asking for it to be turned off, and if for some reason my IEM's fail and I need it, I can turn it on. I have control of my monitor mix with my iPhone. I just can't see having an IEM mix in that monitor, especially since with IEM's, I need EVERYTHING.....drums, etc. When I'm using just a wedge, the stage is loud and I really only need vocals and my keys and guitar. Like in my IEM's, they block everything...so I'll need drums in my IEM's. With them out, I'm right next to drums and would absolutely not want them in my monitor. But if it's the same mix, then they'll be there if I have them in my ears. Thus the problem with my guitar. For me to have it loud enough in my ears, it's going to be feeding back from the monitor uncontrollably. One thing I can do to help with my Line6 patch is really back off the compression and drive, but that will impact the sound. I'll lose all my sustain, for one. I could bring my Explorer instead of my Strat. The strat seems to be more susceptible to the feedback for some reason. Both guitars have custom PUPs. Well, not "custom". Just not stock. BTW my strat is a HSS strat and I am using the humbucker for this.

I can totally crank through my practice amp at home but the Pod through any kind of PA or monitor just seems to feedback like a MOFO. Maybe I need to mess with the patch during soundcheck?


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2997230 07/04/19 09:17 AM
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Also, quick responses are appreciated. I'm driving to the lake from roughly 11am-3pm on the 4th and directly loading in and sound checking. So any suggestions would most valuably be implemented by around 5pm CST on the 4th, not to say I can't fix it for the next 2 gigs on the same stage the rest of the weekend. But it would be awesome to have it all lined out at the initial sound check!

Big show! This was this same gig last year (me in back on keys):

[Linked Image]

Looks from the pic like I was using my strat that gig. I used to always use my Explorer. Haven't used it in quite a while. It got wet one gig when we got rained on and wasn't the same after that. I never really busted it out again, just switched to the Strat, since it DOES have a Humbucker. Still plays a lot different. Just reminded me I need to get that Explorer back into shape and start playing it again. Loved that guitar.

Last edited by J. Dan; 07/04/19 09:22 AM.

Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2997231 07/04/19 09:26 AM
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Just thought of something. My Shure PSM 200 IEM wireless transmitter has 2 inputs with independent volume. Maybe, I split off my DI into the second input. Then, keep Guitar OFF in my monitor mix (or just low enough so it doesn't feedback in the monitor) and instead, turn it up on my second IEM channel so it's in my ears.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2997232 07/04/19 09:29 AM
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And while I'm bringing my QSC K10 just in case, he'll probably have some other 15" 2-way wedge already there. Last year playing the gig, it sounded so horrible that during break I ran to my car and grabbed the QSC. The 15" 2-way was so distorted that I couldn't even tell what notes I was playing. I mean, Sister Christian on the Piano may as well have been AC/DC.....just horrible. Not that AC/DC is bad, just not what you want to hear when you're trying to play a piano ballad. I was shocked that my little K10 sounded so much better. Wish I remembered what he was using for my monitor - pretty sure it was an EV, and I know it was 15" 2-way. Just distorted and horrible, especially for piano. Sounded OK on organ, but that's an instrument that sounds better distorted.


EDIT: Actually, the picture I posted is the gig with the monitor I hated - if you zoom in you can see it. I still don't know exactly what it was, but maybe somebody can identify. I just could NOT go on with that monitor and switched to my K10 during break. It's on my right, your left, right next to my Strat on the stand.

Last edited by J. Dan; 07/04/19 09:33 AM.

Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2997246 07/04/19 01:17 PM
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A question, J. Dan- in this case, the problem that you're wanting to eliminate, what kind of feedback are you referring to here- sustaining, musical harmonic-overtone feedback; or, squealing, whistling, 'electronic sounding' parasitic and/or microphonic feedback?


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Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2997256 07/04/19 02:25 PM
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J. Dan, I'm just throwing out an idea with regard to your monitor(s) causing feedback that I'm seeing in the picture. The one next to the Strat is aimed at you and your mic from the side (It looks like there is another one at the bottom of the drums aimed across the same way). The monitor should be out in front of you, your mic and your keyboard and aimed back at you. Having the speaker(s) on the side in line and aimed at your mic can cause feedback no matter what else you do. Just a thought... cool


Take care, Larryz
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: Larryz] #2997261 07/04/19 03:08 PM
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My first thought is Parametric EQ/Notch Filter to knock out the feedback frequency.

Sideways thought - In reference to trying to simulate feedback from a KB sound, I'm home today, working on Music, was going to plug one of my KB Synths into the Freqout, see how they worked together.


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Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2997266 07/04/19 03:40 PM
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Definitely not mic feedback. If I mute the strings it stops. Can't do monitor in front, not only no room, but my keyboards would block it.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2997283 07/04/19 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Dan
Definitely not mic feedback. If I mute the strings it stops. Can't do monitor in front, not only no room, but my keyboards would block it.


Aaaah. So acoustic/physical feedback. I believe that the only ways to reduce or eliminate that here would be reduction of gain and volume; if you make small reductions in gain here and there in various places along the signal-path, as well as the overall volume of your playing in the monitor(s) around you you should be able to reduce or eliminate the problem without totally neutering the tone and character- as long as some of that tone and character isn't dependant on the harmonic-overtones and sustain enhanced or created by the feedback!

Now- some sort of limiter in-line might even help, to put an effective ceiling on your signal... ?


Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

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Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2997312 07/05/19 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by J. Dan
Definitely not mic feedback. If I mute the strings it stops. Can't do monitor in front, not only no room, but my keyboards would block it.


Sometimes guitars sitting on stands will start feeding back for no reason at all and/or it's caused by room air or room floor vibrations, fans, etc. When you walk up and touch the strings it stops. It will also stop when your fingers are touching the strings while you are playing. The springs on the bottom of the snare drum can do something very similar until you walk over and release the springs till the drummer gets back. Try unplugging the Strat when it's not in use. If that solves the problem you could run a Boss inline tuner pedal and mute the guitar while it's on the stand. +1 on Caevan's suggestion if it's a gain or volume issue...good luck! cool


Take care, Larryz
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: Caevan O'Shite] #2997327 07/05/19 12:52 PM
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In addition, work on damping and muting with both fretting and picking fingers and hands; practice with EXTRA gain and stubborn feedback, to give your damping and muting skills a real workout; try rolling-back your guitar's volume-control just enough to reduce or eliminate problematic feedback; maybe even try a noise-gate of one kind or another.

Acoustic/physical feedback is something that I often PURSUE, and I've cultivated my approach to both attaining it and controlling it.


Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

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Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2997500 07/06/19 07:53 PM
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Just a follow up - turned out he gave me separate mixes for my IEM and wedge. Wedge was really just there in case IEMís failed. Iíve played 2 of the 3 nights and the sound is phenomenal. I have just enough guitar in the wedge that if I face i can get feedback if I try, but itís clear as day in my ears. I should mention this is a very loud band, so I have to really crank the monitor to hear when not using IEMs - much more than any other band I play with. I think that coupled with the horn driver pointing at me is the biggest source of problem


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2997511 07/06/19 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Dan
Just a follow up - turned out he gave me separate mixes for my IEM and wedge. Wedge was really just there in case IEMís failed. Iíve played 2 of the 3 nights and the sound is phenomenal. I have just enough guitar in the wedge that if I face i can get feedback if I try, but itís clear as day in my ears. I should mention this is a very loud band, so I have to really crank the monitor to hear when not using IEMs - much more than any other band I play with. I think that coupled with the horn driver pointing at me is the biggest source of problem



like Sounds like you've got that under control, then. cool Especially if you "have just enough guitar in the wedge that if [you] face it [you] can get feedback if [you] try, but itís clear as day in [your] ears"- a win-win, as long as there's adequate limiting in your IEM's to protect your ears when there's feedback.


Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~
_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: Caevan O'Shite] #2997533 07/07/19 08:02 AM
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J. Dan Offline OP
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Yep - have the
Shure PSM200
System Iíve used for years. One challenge is getting the mix right so nothing hits the limited because then it squashes the rest of he mix. First night my vocal started out too hot and was doing that. Cut it back and it was great. One thing I never got just right was the lead guitar since he has multiple amps and 3 channels of the mix including amps and effects at. Even the third gig (tonight) some songs he was on the loud side and others I had trouble hearing his m in my ears. Oh, and another channel for his acoustic (up to 4) and talk box came through his vocal mic. So really 5 channels in my IEM mix to get him just right.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Feedback: Amp Sim + PPA [Re: J. Dan] #2997536 07/07/19 01:55 PM
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Caevan O'Shite Online Content
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Originally Posted by J. Dan
One challenge is getting the mix right so nothing hits the limited because then it squashes the rest of he mix. First night my vocal started out too hot and was doing that. Cut it back and it was great.


Interesting! Good to know! I haven't used those and didn't realize that, though it should be almost obvious.

Originally Posted by J. Dan
One thing I never got just right was the lead guitar since he has multiple amps and 3 channels of the mix including amps and effects at. Even the third gig (tonight) some songs he was on the loud side and others I had trouble hearing his m in my ears. Oh, and another channel for his acoustic (up to 4) and talk box came through his vocal mic. So really 5 channels in my IEM mix to get him just right.


Wow! That's pretty "busy"! crazy


Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~
_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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