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How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success #2990514 05/21/19 11:50 AM
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In 2016, 14-year-old Billie Eilish, a Los Angeles-based dancer and musician, uploaded her first song, “Ocean Eyes,” to SoundCloud late one night. She had only intended for one person to listen to it: her dance teacher. When she woke up the next day, the song had gone viral on the streaming platform.

It inspired myriad, unofficial remixes, some of which caught the ear of the recording industry. The teen who had recorded a song for fun in her bedroom had suddenly signed with Darkroom and Interscope Records. From there, things took off. In the spring of 2017, her song “Bored” was featured in the first season of Netflix’s 13 Reasons Why, and in August, she dropped her critically acclaimed EP, Don’t Smile At Me.

Now, a mere three years since that fateful SoundCloud upload, she has just released her first album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? and dominated a night at Coachella with a performance critics called “a triumph.” Now 17, Eilish has already crafted one of 2019’s most critically and commercially successful releases. She’s a certified teenage pop star — a part she has had zero interest in playing by the rules since day one.

8 " easy steps":
https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stories/billie-eilish-introduction/

-Start young

-Do it yourself

-Defy labels

-Be an open book

-Stay grounded

-Be original

-Absorb everything

-Keep creating

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Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: GregC] #2990516 05/21/19 11:56 AM
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Here's a good music success story. Check out the articles ' 8 steps'.

I never heard of the artist until now. Of course, this artist level of success has to practically smack me in the forehead, due to all the ' noise ' in the business.

Would you want to be 16 or 18 yrs of age these days , like Ms Eilish ?

#9 step might be a dose of good luck. Or is that cynical and there is lots of room for music success and recognition like what Billie now has achieved ?

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: GregC] #2990522 05/21/19 01:09 PM
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[old man]
Whatever. I'm in the middle of a dance production that's doing an arrangement of one of her tunes as an instrumental. It is musically indistinguishable from a zillion other songs.

What she has is a particular aesthetic that no one else with talent has currently married to a "pop"-accessible musical style.

She is not "preternaturally gifted"; history is full of talented teenaged performers and writers. Consider that she's a home schooled child of parents who are "in the business", and her position is even less exceptional.

In fact, that article conveniently leaves out the fact that she's an LA child of parents in the music/acting business. There's 'Step 1' for you; be born into it!

Also, none of those "steps" are keys to success, nor are they really "steps" per se.

Plus, I do all those things, and am still struggling. razz

Fluff piece that could be summed up as: "A child of Hollywood actors hits the zeitgeist of angsty teen rebellious upper-middle-class white girls in 2019 and becomes a pop sensation with some relatively pedestrian pop songwriting and production."

Ok, maybe I'm just feeling cranky.
[/old man]

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: BluMunk] #2990523 05/21/19 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: BluMunk
[old man]
Whatever. I'm in the middle of a dance production that's doing an arrangement of one of her tunes as an instrumental. It is musically indistinguishable from a zillion other songs.

What she has is a particular aesthetic that no one else with talent has currently married to a "pop"-accessible musical style.

She is not "preternaturally gifted"; history is full of talented teenaged performers and writers. Consider that she's a home schooled child of parents who are "in the business", and her position is even less exceptional.

In fact, that article conveniently leaves out the fact that she's an LA child of parents in the music/acting business. There's 'Step 1' for you; be born into it!

Also, none of those "steps" are keys to success, nor are they really "steps" per se.

Plus, I do all those things, and am still struggling. razz

Fluff piece that could be summed up as: "A child of Hollywood actors hits the zeitgeist of angsty teen rebellious upper-middle-class white girls in 2019 and becomes a pop sensation with some relatively pedestrian pop songwriting and production."

Ok, maybe I'm just feeling cranky.
[/old man]


its ok ! I am 'old ' too, at 66.

Your points are solid on her incredible success. I listened to some of her material- I didn't want to zing it, as she is 18 yrs old. Her peer group is a million other teens.

I guess musicians like you and I have no other choice but to continue to persevere and create.

To add my crankiness, yesterday, I was sitting around in the ' minor surgery ' room at Kaiser- having a melanoma on my arm removed. The doc was late.

To my waiting enjoyment , they had The Beatles White Album [1968] playing. Heard all of side 1 and 2, mostly Lennon songs.

I complimented the nurse on her choice of waiting music. She gave me that puzzled look and the ' huh ? what ? ' that 25 yr olds reserve for seniors.

She says; " Ohhhhh, that. The 85 yr old lady before you [in the same procedure room] wanted that, It was either " popular country " or " Oldies" music. So we switched to " Oldies " for her. "

Me: "What ?? Beatles are timeless classic, not ' old '. ". Then I stopped and thought;. Awwwshit. You can't fight the future. And protest that music from 1968 is ' not old '.

Just another reminder of the world we live in today.



Last edited by GregC; 05/21/19 01:25 PM.
Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: GregC] #2990529 05/21/19 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: GregC

Me: "What ?? Beatles are timeless classic, not ' old '. ". Then I stopped and thought;. Awwwshit. You can't fight the future. And protest that music from 1968 is ' not old '.

Just another reminder of the world we live in today.


I know the feeling working in a record store around 1980 and already heard teens refer to Beatles as "bubblegum" music really got to me. I listen to a lot of the rock from the 60's and 70's now and think, I liked this, this was popular??? The stuff that seems to of held up was the R&B and Soul music and great writers like the Beatles.

Last edited by Docbop; 05/21/19 01:52 PM.
Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: Docbop] #2990533 05/21/19 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: Docbop
Originally Posted By: GregC

Me: "What ?? Beatles are timeless classic, not ' old '. ". Then I stopped and thought;. Awwwshit. You can't fight the future. And protest that music from 1968 is ' not old '.

Just another reminder of the world we live in today.


I The stuff that seems to of held up was the R&B and Soul music and great writers like the Beatles.


I agree. Beatles, classic R & B, Marvin Gaye is timeless. I think its because of the great song writing. Also innovative studio recording. For me, these groups/genre is where it mostly began. Its not about 1 or 2 songs, its about the entire song writing portfolio of these artists.

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: GregC] #2990534 05/21/19 02:32 PM
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Her music expresses the feeling emptiness to me; it's depressing, unattractive, and tedious. Nothing in common with great music.

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: Jazz+] #2990538 05/21/19 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Her music expresses the feeling emptiness to me; it's depressing, unattractive, and tedious.


Maybe that's why it strikes a chord with people her age.


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Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: MAJUSCULE] #2990544 05/21/19 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: MAJUSCULE
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Her music expresses the feeling emptiness to me; it's depressing, unattractive, and tedious.


Maybe that's why it strikes a chord with people her age.


could be. 15 million fans on Instagram. Sounds like a lot of angst and depression out there, given your possible theory.

"Instead of keeping everything confined to a journal, her artistic progression is chronicled online. Eilish is very much a product of the internet, both in what she has been exposed to and how she interacts with fans. "

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: GregC] #2990555 05/21/19 05:05 PM
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I'm 62, and share the view that it's hard to think of Beatles music as anything other than classic and innovative . . . and while I'm sure many "youngsters" blissfully dismiss it as "old," I've also happily seen evidence suggesting that many among the newest generation of music lovers view it as creative and even fresh.

I have a 13 year-old stepdaughter, and she and her dance classmates are absolutely nuts about the music of The Beatles, Queen and Elton John (with both of the latter affinities well pre-dating the related movies), and they genuinely gush about how great that music is.

They know I perform live music, so I consequently get peppered with questions about various artists (but invariably mostly those three) and their music, and I'm constantly amazed at the depth and breadth of their questions and of the knowledge they've already acquired. The only modern artist they appear to be as equally enamored with is Charlie Puth, who seems to me to be multiple levels above much of the modern fare. Impressive.

But - just when I become convinced that the upcoming generation of music lovers (or at least the segment that is seriously interested in music) have a great deal of substance and gravity in their musical choices, I'm inexplicably subjected to an evening of YouTube fare that runs the gamut from nonsensical "humor" to the mantras of angst and depression referenced above. But those sessions usually thankfully end as quickly and inexplicably as they began - and the Beatles/Queen/John/Puth reign resumes.

I want to think those quick fits of YouTube forays are the product of simple curiosity rather than any real interest . . . but who knows.

All I do know is that the musical tastes of teenagers - as in most things teenager - are hard to peg.


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Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: rickp] #2990558 05/21/19 05:44 PM
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I'm young and hip...in my 40s, so obviously qualified to speak about current pop music. wink

I thought Ocean Eyes was lame and boring. Turned it off after 15 seconds. I hope my teen daughter does not discover it. Don't want to hear it around the house. Now, the Beatles are welcome to come over anytime. There you have it folks! Ha ha!


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Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: rickp] #2990580 05/21/19 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: rickp
I'm 62, and share the view that it's hard to think of Beatles music as anything other than classic and innovative . . . and while I'm sure many "youngsters" blissfully dismiss it as "old," I've also happily seen evidence suggesting that many among the newest generation of music lovers view it as creative and even fresh.

I have a 13 year-old stepdaughter, and she and her dance classmates are absolutely nuts about the music of The Beatles, Queen and Elton John (with both of the latter affinities well pre-dating the related movies), and they genuinely gush about how great that music is.

They know I perform live music, so I consequently get peppered with questions about various artists (but invariably mostly those three) and their music, and I'm constantly amazed at the depth and breadth of their questions and of the knowledge they've already acquired. The only modern artist they appear to be as equally enamored with is Charlie Puth, who seems to me to be multiple levels above much of the modern fare. Impressive.

But - just when I become convinced that the upcoming generation of music lovers (or at least the segment that is seriously interested in music) have a great deal of substance and gravity in their musical choices, I'm inexplicably subjected to an evening of YouTube fare that runs the gamut from nonsensical "humor" to the mantras of angst and depression referenced above. But those sessions usually thankfully end as quickly and inexplicably as they began - and the Beatles/Queen/John/Puth reign resumes.

I want to think those quick fits of YouTube forays are the product of simple curiosity rather than any real interest . . . but who knows.

All I do know is that the musical tastes of teenagers - as in most things teenager - are hard to peg.


good post. I like to read how ' music taste ' does not fall into tidy demographic buckets.

I have wished that retro, esp 60's/70's would come back strong. When we had the Sargent Pepper anniversary I hoped that was the beginning of a retro wave. It wasn't.

Its great that your stepdaughter/friends have ' discovered' Beatles and our other high quality favorites.

Its my opinion that this demographic - teens and 20 something are most open minded to new music. And that certain preferences are formed.

To contrast, many of my acquaintances in their 50's/60's are not as interested or open minded to new music. Either music is not a big deal to them or they have prefs that were shaped when they were teens/20's. I am referring to the casual music fan.

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: GregC] #2990589 05/21/19 09:43 PM
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It'd be great if music fell into tidy demographic buckets, but no such luck based on my experience.

Even though I'm approaching 60, I have to keep an open mind. My three bands play largely to the retiree circuit in Florida (not a bad gig, really) and I find myself segmenting and sub-segmenting as any marketeer would do.

Age is segment (obviously) but economic success seems to matter as well. The wealthy retiree clubs seem to prefer different tunes than the more middle class ones. And the Grateful Dead tribute band strangely draws across all demographics, including younger people.

The acoustic trio seems to do better at the more aged and wealthy events. Like the museum gala events. The stage band does better at country club event parties where dancing is expected. And the Dead act is all about live parties where alcohol etc. is in abundance.

We're learning to narrow our demographic in each group, and play what they like to hear. Anything after 1980 is a careful choice, but we do a few.

I think that's the difference between being an entertainer and an artist.


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Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: cphollis] #2990592 05/21/19 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: cphollis
It'd be great if music fell into tidy demographic buckets, but no such luck based on my experience.

Even though I'm approaching 60, I have to keep an open mind. My three bands play largely to the retiree circuit in Florida (not a bad gig, really) and I find myself segmenting and sub-segmenting as any marketeer would do.

Age is segment (obviously) but economic success seems to matter as well. The wealthy retiree clubs seem to prefer different tunes than the more middle class ones. And the Grateful Dead tribute band strangely draws across all demographics, including younger people.

The acoustic trio seems to do better at the more aged and wealthy events. Like the museum gala events. The stage band does better at country club event parties where dancing is expected. And the Dead act is all about live parties where alcohol etc. is in abundance.

We're learning to narrow our demographic in each group, and play what they like to hear. Anything after 1980 is a careful choice, but we do a few.

I think that's the difference between being an entertainer and an artist.


I think its good to have a fair understanding of our music audience . Not only who you are performing to but who you will potentially perform to, or the audience you would like to capture or perform to. Or find out how to increase your ' market share' in a business way of speaking.

Since you are a live performer, you have good experience and also a handle on the 'data' as you perform in Florida. Its my observation that Arizona and Florida have similar demographics, thus a similar music listening demographic.

And as this demographic grows in Florida/Arizona, performance bands like yours can continue to thrive.

I make a distinction between the somewhat captive audience at your venues and the overall demographic audience that is the casual listener that might d/l songs on iTunes, Spotify, etc.

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: GregC] #2990608 05/21/19 11:46 PM
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I saw this the other day. I found it kind of refreshing.

DAN RATHER: "Do you like the way country music is going today?"

VINCE GILL: "I do. It's not my cup of tea, but I don't know if I was Merle Haggard's cup of tea when I first got going. And I don't know if Merle Haggard was Roy Acuff's cup of tea. I don't know if Roy Acuff was Jimmie Rodgers' cup of tea. You know what I'm saying? To me, to be "that" guy that looks back, you sound like a curmudgeon, you sound like you're bitter, you sound like all those things. I love seeing kids come along and being moved by what they're moved by. I don't care that they're not moved by the same things I am. I love seeing young people just out there doing what they love. There's not a rule book that says you have to like this, or it doesn't count or you're not as good. I'm not gonna be that guy. There's a lot of it I'm not crazy about but it's not personal. They don't have anybody cheering for them harder than I do."
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Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: Steve Nathan] #2990616 05/22/19 12:49 AM
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I’m behind that 110%. It’s marketing/media that intentionally conflates success with exceptionalism that makes me get cranky.

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: BluMunk] #2990629 05/22/19 01:31 AM
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As a DJ I listen to hundreds of new songs a month. Most only take a few seconds... ugh... bland... same ol' same ol'... goes nowhere... heard it before...

A few months ago I clicked on Bury A Friend.

Hmm... what's this... that's different... definitely stands out... cool lyrics...

I have no idea if Billie Eilish is going anywhere beyond where she is (which is not in Ariana Grande territory by any means!) but it takes A LOT to stand out in the crowded field of contemporary pop - something she's already pulled off quite well IMO. Someone to watch...

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: BluMunk] #2990655 05/22/19 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: BluMunk
I’m behind that 110%. It’s marketing/media that intentionally conflates success with exceptionalism that makes me get cranky.



I largely agree with you, BluMunk, with a few points:

I hate to sound like a grammar Nazi, but I wouldn't use “exceptionalism” but instead, “exceptionality” (my apologies,!)

It's larger than marketing/media, imo, this topic gets into cultural gatekeeping. The most obvious example in music currently are “The Voice” and “American Idol”, and the godfather of this current scene, Simon Cowell.
In music production, the current scene started with Mutt Lange and Shania Twain and Max Martin

My wife, an avid jazz/R&B fan, likes to watch “Voice” so we've kept tabs on this for quite some time.

Out of the four finalists, none are truly exceptional, but the best is Andrew Severner, who has a Seger-ish gravelly, soulful quality and honest delivery. Rod is also good. Marliyn is absolutely unexceptional in every way and her “Unforgettable” duet with John was not only forgettable, but insulting before I forgot it!

Gyth is absolutely sub-par, pitchy and has a fast vibrato on held notes that any real NYC vocal coach would not stand for.

But he’s playing to the crowd and Blake is coaching him with canny song choices and saying things like “You’re the next winner” every time he speaks. So he will “go far”

Shawn Sounds was the real deal, soulful and church trough and through and completely flawless and musical to the nth degree. Of course he didn't make it to the finals.

There was also a white girl who played keyboards, sang powerfully and rapped credibly! And she made great song choices, too! (I am blanking on her name) and of course she got cut.

The song choices of most of the contestants was mostly horrible, “current” songs with no real verses, choruses, bridges or hooks.... and the coaches choices were not any better!

Would Aretha have gotten to the “Voice” finals? (not a “cover model”)) Dylan? (no charisma) Bowie? ( too weird) Marvin? (too political, too graphic)

And all of these “contests” are “guided” anyway.... (I can’t say how I know, but all of us in the biz talk to each other, word travels)

And NBC is debuting “Songland” .... “in search of the next great song” ..... with judges and panelists of only two (maybe) know halfway anything about what constitutes a song!

When the “current popular music scene” has has 90% (at least) of their “hits” written by the same four people for the past decade and a half, homogeneity results and risk aversion becomes the norm.

This has nothing to do with “out of touch old men” ranting ( I listen to EVERYTHING), but has to do with a decades long assessment of “culture”

There’s PLENTY of GREAT music being made under the radar, but you better believe nothing gets past the gatekeepers to the mass audience of any quality, heart or substance.

I know this post is about Ms Elish, but I am speaking to the larger issue of cultural gatekeeping, of which the puff piece on her is definitely part of.

And, yeah she’s OKAY, but not exceptional, she only seems a bit out of the norm because Max Martin and the three other guys didn't write her songs. And at least she sings with a clear, vibrato less sound and seems to have good pitch. (Not that millennial half choked vibrato! blech)

.

Last edited by jimkost2002; 05/22/19 10:14 AM.

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Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: jimkost2002] #2990662 05/22/19 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
[q

There was also a white girl who played keyboards, sang powerfully and rapped credibly! And she made great song choices, too! (I am blanking on her name) and of course she got cut.

The song choices of most of the contestants was mostly horrible, “current” songs with no real verses, choruses, bridges or hooks.... and the coaches choices were not any better!

Would Aretha have gotten to the “Voice” finals? (not a “cover model”)) Dylan? (no charisma) Bowie? ( too weird) Marvin? (too political, too graphic)

And all of these “contests” are “guided” anyway.... (I can’t say how I know, but all of us in the biz talk to each other, word travels)


This has nothing to do with “out of touch old men” ranting ( I listen to EVERYTHING), but has to do with a decades long assessment of “culture”

There’s PLENTY of GREAT music being made under the radar, but you better believe nothing gets past the gatekeepers to the mass audience of any quality, heart or substance.

.


strong post, Jim, you made several good points.

its style over substance , 95% of the time. Being young and cute, or young and charming is the key requirement. The white girl who played keys, rapped, might be a good example of dismissing strong talent.

I think the contest shows you refer to are all pre-scripted, pre-planned. The 'drama' is contrived and the audience are treated like gullible sheep who will clap and cheer at the right moment.

we can poke fun at ourselves, our age , and be self deprecating. Because this dissipates the superficial observation " oh, right, dude, you are a geezer and thats why you think like that. " This, by itself, deserves another post topic- how our knowledge and history and wisdom gets marginalized and dismissed.

While the discussion is focused on ' performance ', I think the nature of Internet media is an obstacle , as it buries real talent, and allows mediocrity and marginalizes proven musical skill and folks who can really play an instrument. Sound Cloud is a good example. Sound Cloud is like a sea of blips bleeps and bloops by teens and 20 somethings who have also mastered Internet media like YouTube, Facebook and Instagram. .
There probably isn't a venue for mature listeners who would give mature and accomplished musicians and creative song writers a chance, as they are swamped by tons of ' product' .

That said, I am skeptical that a Lennon or Bowie would thrive today if they were 18-20.
They would have a chance if they mastered the Internet media- YouTube, Facebook and Instagram, SoundCloud, etc.

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: GregC] #2990698 05/22/19 03:36 PM
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Substitute the Beatles for Glen Miller. Then substitute Glen Miller for Rudy Vallee, then substutite....you get the idea. Or switch it to country. Keep going back until you get to Gene Autry. All huge in their day. All their fans went on about how horrible modern music was. My grandmother hated the WW2 big bands because she was a flapper from the 20's. When it comes to generational taste in music Snoop Dogg still has the best quote ever. "If you don't like something, it wasn't made for you".

Vince Gil has it absolutely right.

Bob


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Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: Jazzmammal] #2990700 05/22/19 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jazzmammal
Substitute the Beatles for Glen Miller. Then substitute Glen Miller for Rudy Vallee, then substutite....you get the idea. Or switch it to country. Keep going back until you get to Gene Autry. All huge in their day. All their fans went on about how horrible modern music was. My grandmother hated the WW2 big bands because she was a flapper from the 20's. When it comes to generational taste in music Snoop Dogg still has the best quote ever. "If you don't like something, it wasn't made for you".

Vince Gil has it absolutely right.

Bob


Sure, lets go back to 18th century classical music [ which I love] grin

I am familiar with the ' generational bias' argument. It is a good neutralizer.

I am more inclined to stick to/analyze the song writer skill. I think song writing for pop music has gotten more " Productionalized " in the past 19 years.

I enjoy what technology has done for us. But in the studio, I think it is often heavily utilized for new material . Where studio Production managers are equal to the actual song writer.

And are there more studio musicians these days ? I am saying less, since its gotten easier to substitute virtual instrument tracks.

None of this is news but I wanted to lay out a perspective on the impact to song writing over the past 19 years. And do most of todays song writers have an instrument skill ?

Back in the days of covered wagons, many a song writer likely had good command of an instrument.

Last edited by GregC; 05/22/19 03:53 PM.
Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: Jazzmammal] #2990721 05/22/19 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jazzmammal
Substitute the Beatles for Glen Miller. Then substitute Glen Miller for Rudy Vallee, then substutite....you get the idea. Or switch it to country. Keep going back until you get to Gene Autry. All huge in their day. All their fans went on about how horrible modern music was. My grandmother hated the WW2 big bands because she was a flapper from the 20's. When it comes to generational taste in music Snoop Dogg still has the best quote ever. "If you don't like something, it wasn't made for you".

Vince Gil has it absolutely right.

Bob


And, without wanting to sound like a broken record, yes, Vince Gil is absolutely right. People like what they like, and that's awesome. Complaining that what is popular shouldn't be popular is the worst kind of narrow-minded elitism.

However, at the same time, it's quite reasonable to talk about (in still mostly subjective ways) whether a thing is "good" or not. Whether it's unique, or boundary-pushing or enduring.

It's the old argument about whether you can claim that anything that is popular is "bad". Well, what is bad? If being popular is a litmus for good, then all true criticism about art or skill in any arena vanishes, and all discussion about the merit of something is answered by statistics on sales.

There's got to be room for: "Yes, this is popular, yes it's fine that people like it, and they should go on listening to the things they enjoy . . . but also their tastes are unimaginative, and they are satisfied by fundamentally simple and easily manufactured stimuli."

It's insanely annoying (and inaccurate) to have someone explain that the thing you like is actually not worth liking, but it's equally annoying (and inaccurate) to have someone explain that because they like a thing it has intrinsic artistic value.

It's great to like a McDonalds burger, but "billions served" doesn't mean they make burgers worth emulating or holding up as objects of culinary excellence.

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: BluMunk] #2990725 05/22/19 05:20 PM
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God, some of these replies.

Obviously, a 17 year old with Tourettes does not have the same motivations and experiences and most of you. You can pull her songs apart as mechanically as you want. Thant's hardly the point, is it?

I can tell you that my 14 year old daughter and my 17 year old daughter, whose playlists contain everything from Miles to Die Antwoord, both feel a deep connection to her music. Her productions and songs she writes with her brother resonate with them and their friends. THAT is what is preternatually gifted about her. And if you think that it all sounds the same as other pop songs, you obviously are not listening with an ear nuanced enough in that genre in the same way that i think 80% of all blues song sound identical.

I'm sure all of your criticisms are valid, but that does not invalidate her accomplishments or the high regard others have for her.


"For instance" is not proof.
Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: zeronyne] #2990731 05/22/19 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: zeronyne
. . .both feel a deep connection to her music. Her productions and songs she writes with her brother resonate with them and their friends. THAT is what is preternatually gifted about her.

I'm sure all of your criticisms are valid, but that does not invalidate her accomplishments or the high regard others have for her.


And God, some people cannot handle discussion about artistic skill without getting huffy about it.

You're right. Some people really like her music. It doesn't mean she's "preternaturally gifted". Even of some people really feel a deep connection to her music.

Again, if that's the bar for being "gifted" then everyone is gifted, and there's no conversation to be had.

I think the discussion in this thread is mostly centered around pulling apart the difference between being liked and being good/exceptional/gifted.

I'd love to hear about the ways in which her songwriting, production, or vocal ability rises to the level of "gifted" but no one has presented that argument, least of all the article in the OP which basically says the steps to being a global icon involve "staying grounded" "do it yourself" and "start young".

Again (and then I'll stop banging my head against this wall). She clearly has talent. It's fine to like her. But "she evokes a response in people" is not, in and of itself, a meaningful argument when discussing the artistic value of a thing, or comparing one piece of art to another.

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: BluMunk] #2990734 05/22/19 06:03 PM
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Not unless you're going into the deeper conversation about what art actually is. wink


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Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: Jazzmammal] #2990755 05/22/19 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jazzmammal
Substitute the Beatles for Glen Miller. Then substitute Glen Miller for Rudy Vallee, then substutite....you get the idea. Or switch it to country. Keep going back until you get to Gene Autry. All huge in their day. All their fans went on about how horrible modern music was. My grandmother hated the WW2 big bands because she was a flapper from the 20's. When it comes to generational taste in music Snoop Dogg still has the best quote ever. "If you don't like something, it wasn't made for you".

Vince Gil has it absolutely right.



Bob



Vince Gill has it PARTLY right.

i keep hearing all these half-baked relativistic comparisons like the above....
Personally, it has nothing to do with likes and dislikes (as i said I listen to EVERYTHING), but more with cultural gatekeeping and homogeneity.

Bob, the continuum you mention didn't have four people writing all the songs or a bunch of gatekeepers with contests for the next “voice” or people who didn't have technical familiarity with the music of their predecessors.....
And if you want a comparison with European Classical Music, Boulez said “the old monuments need to be destroyed” in his 20s, but conducted Bruckner and Mahler in his 60s.

Last edited by jimkost2002; 05/22/19 08:37 PM.

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Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: jimkost2002] #2990759 05/22/19 08:58 PM
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A short while back our brother Markyboard recommended a book called "Who Needs Classical Music?" in this thread.

I stumped up my cash and grabbed a copy. I note the debate here covers a lot of the ground that the book does.

Specifically:
- the relative value of different types of music
- that different music is designed for different purposes
- music as "art"

Those of you who are finding your passions inflamed by this discussion may also find it worth checking out. I quite enjoyed it, which is not to say I agreed with every point made in the book. The author certainly knows his subject. Caveat: The writing is quite dense and sometimes repetitive.

As far as the format of the article with its "8 steps" goes, I wouldn't be getting too bent out of shape about that. The purpose of articles of this nature is to attract clicks and to satisfy the rules of SEO, not reveal an overlooked secret to success that we can all follow. A less hyperbolic headline and format would not serve this purpose.

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: CowboyNQ] #2990816 05/23/19 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: CowboyNQ
The purpose of articles of this nature is to attract clicks and to satisfy the rules of SEO, not reveal an overlooked secret to success that we can all follow.


Exactly.


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Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: BluMunk] #2990952 05/23/19 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: BluMunk
[quot


I think the discussion in this thread is mostly centered around pulling apart the difference between being liked and being good/exceptional/gifted.

I'd love to hear about the ways in which her songwriting, production, or vocal ability rises to the level of "gifted" but no one has presented that argument, least of all the article in the OP which basically says the steps to being a global icon involve "staying grounded" "do it yourself" and "start young".

Again (and then I'll stop banging my head against this wall). She clearly has talent. It's fine to like her. But "she evokes a response in people" is not, in and of itself, a meaningful argument when discussing the artistic value of a thing, or comparing one piece of art to another.



I appreciate your good comments.

My motivation on posting about this new artist and her popular success was an attempt to better define the ' volume' or her large degree of acceptance and musical ' likability' with her listener demographic { teens and others].

I am clueless at getting at the 'real facts' for Ms Ellish's success. The 8 steps by the article author, Ms Laura Stavropoulo are, well, they are basic and somewhat general . " keep creating", " be original". Ok, most artists are already doing that.

There are some clues in the 8 steps, but there is more involved.

I think its important to figure out the ' right questions ' to the O/p. Thats why KC is great, 100's of accomplished musicians here, with varying degrees of experience and success.

IOW, yeah, I am critical too, have my opinions, but that might get in the way of getting to the ' right questions' of the artists musical success.

I think part of the research is to interview a sample of her 15 million listeners. Which is an awesome task- to get into the heads of listeners of their favorite artist.

I will make a 'presumption '. Many of her fans like and identify with her vocal, the emotion, lyrics story line, her videos, her presentation. And finally the musical accompaniment. I think she is excellent at ' connecting ' and projecting sincerity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm0MGnuRnH0

Yes, what happens here on KC ,is the inevitable 'opinion ' of her musical accompaniment , her handling of song melody.

My quest is about getting at the key questions. With that we find the answers.

Re: How its Done-8 steps From Bedroom Musician to Global Success [Re: zeronyne] #2991202 05/25/19 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: zeronyne
...if you think that it all sounds the same as other pop songs, you obviously are not listening with an ear nuanced enough in that genre in the same way that i think 80% of all blues song sound identical.


Very well said, agree completely. My opinion about pop music as art is we as old farts are not qualified to judge stuff like this.

At age 73 I try to keep an open mind about this. I listen to a fair amount of modern pop and EDM stuff. Some of it I actually like. I keep thinking about back in the day I only liked maybe 10% of what I heard on the radio. I thought then most of it was commercial pap which is about the same as now. I think most of us think the same, the difference in opinions comes from people disagreeing about WHICH 10% is the good stuff.

I'm semi-retired from the CPA firm but I still handle some tax cases on a part time basis. The office manager has two daughters who work there part time. One is 30 and the other is 26. They've known for years I've been a musician all my life. Just a few weeks ago I was in the office and the subject of modern music came up. I mentioned I've watched a ton of vids about big name DJ's working with all their equipment to remix tracks they are freely given by different artists in order to create something new. In one vid it was two big name DJ's that of course I had never heard of but they were talking about big shows with 40,000 people so they must be somebody. They demonstrated how they did completely different remixes of the same, exact source material.

As soon as I started talking about that the girls completely changed their attitudes and starting talking about shows they've been to and saw that exact same thing being performed live and how awesome it was, I should have been there, etc, etc. Just the fact that I showed them I had some kind of clue about this as an old guy completely opened them up. They appreciated the fact that here is an old fart who is making an effort to understand the kind of music they love. I'm sure when it comes to music all they hear from older people is how crap this stuff is, it's not real music and all that.

That kind of attitude by older folks is not fair and and it's not right.

Bob


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