Music Player Network Home Guitar Player Magazine Keyboard Magazine Bass Player Magazine EQ Magazine
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#2983037 - 04/02/19 07:37 AM 7ths Chords
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 981
Loc: Virginia
Writing a couple of Blues songs this weekend in Major keys, I found myself using 7ths in the 1,4(7/,&5(7) for the first two bars.

It made me think about those days when our band was covering a lot of Hank Williams songs and Mansion On The Hill came to mind. Hank used a lot of 7ths there as well.

Do you guys use the 7ths often? Is is more prominent in any genre?

Top
GP Island
#2983039 - 04/02/19 07:55 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 12001
Loc: Northern California
I use tons of 7ths through entire tunes...I abuse 7ths, 9ths and 6ths (13ths) too! They add a ton of color. I will use them in minor keys as well...I love 7th's! cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2983097 - 04/02/19 12:11 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 7665
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Well, they're essential for blues (C&W styles, too) & almost any rock tune, eh ?
Common even in European classical.
Other than tweaking the 3rd, it's the most musical effect available.

Are they new to you or something, Doc ?
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2983106 - 04/02/19 12:45 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: d / halfnote]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 981
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: d / halfnote

Are they new to you or something, Doc ?

No. Among the first chords I learned some 70+ years ago. They just seemed to always fit where they fit if you know what I mean.

But when I was writing this melody the other day, I realized how dramatic they were. Especially when I use the G7 then hammer on the Gmaj.


Edited by DocPate (04/02/19 12:48 PM)

Top
#2983139 - 04/02/19 03:25 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate]
desertbluesman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 4993
Loc: Near Phoenix Az
I use dominant 7ths, minor 7ths, and major 7ths all of the time, although I do not think about that at all. Once I write or learn a song it is ingrained in the hands (for as long as I practice it regularly) So although I use them, I rarely consciously think about that in my practice or performance.
_________________________
dbm
If it sounds good, it is good !!
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=143231&content=music
Harvey Cedars is my stage name on Soundclick

Top
#2983156 - 04/02/19 04:28 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate]
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 7665
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: DocPate
Originally Posted By: d / halfnote

Are they new to you or something, Doc ?

No. Among the first chords I learned some 70+ years ago. They just seemed to always fit where they fit if you know what I mean.

But when I was writing this melody the other day, I realized how dramatic they were. Especially when I use the G7 then hammer on the Gmaj.


There are a number of things I might point out abt the inter-related qualities of 7ths as intervals but that may be too broad a subject for here.

I will mention that on of my fave uses of the chord form(s) is doing something like a
[ V IV I ] progression that becomes a [ I bVII IV ] progression
(or vice versa).
Is that the kinda idea yer looking for ?
Maybe not since it's really abt
a similar progression involving the 7th as a chord rather than an interval...

There are also, of course, numerous ways to make more subtle use in chord substitutions.
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2984988 - 04/13/19 04:52 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Larryz
I use tons of 7ths through entire tunes...I abuse 7ths, 9ths and 6ths (13ths) too! They add a ton of color. I will use them in minor keys as well...I love 7th's! cool



As usual, I concur with Bro. Larry. Playing 9ths, 11ths and 13ths add color and interest to your harmonies as well as offering melodic opportunities.
They are called "dominant extensions". It is important to mention that there is only one dominant chord in the harmonized scale- the V7. This holds true whether your playing in "Tertian" (harmony in thirds,) or "extended" (harmony in 7ths) harmony.



Edited by Fred_C (04/13/19 04:57 PM)
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2985046 - 04/14/19 09:25 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 12001
Loc: Northern California
Thanks Brother Fred, Your knowledge and your comments (and not just because you concurred with me), just goes to show what a valuable asset you are to this guitar forum! thu
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2985049 - 04/14/19 09:36 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 981
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: Larryz
Thanks Brother Fred, Your knowledge and your comments (and not just because you concurred with me), just goes to show what a valuable asset you are to this guitar forum! thu


All I can add is AMEN

Top
#2985084 - 04/14/19 02:39 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Thanks, gents. I try to make a positive contribution to any thread I participate in.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2985321 - 04/15/19 06:26 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
Bluesape Moderator Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 11764
Loc: Ottawa
I use 7ths and 9ths all the time. I find that they work just fine in major and minor keys. Will often use a 7th to resolve the 5 in a minor 12 bar run. Extremely versatile!
_________________________
Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never!

Top
#2985618 - 04/17/19 08:49 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Bluesape]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Bluesape
I use 7ths and 9ths all the time. I find that they work just fine in major and minor keys. Will often use a 7th to resolve the 5 in a minor 12 bar run. Extremely versatile!


When playing Blues i ,often resolve to the major 3rd.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2985625 - 04/17/19 09:20 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 5328
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
When playing Blues i ,often resolve to the major 3rd.


The Picardy third.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2985692 - 04/17/19 12:54 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Scott Fraser]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
When playing Blues i ,often resolve to the major 3rd.


The Picardy third.


Exactly! Sounds great!
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2985776 - 04/18/19 05:02 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 981
Loc: Virginia
I can see that Fred. Playing blues in E minor the Major G does make sense.

Top
#2985787 - 04/18/19 06:24 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate]
CEB Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 13315
7ths. I'm a disciple of James Burton.
_________________________
"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!
So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

Top
#2985797 - 04/18/19 06:55 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: DocPate
I can see that Fred. Playing blues in E minor the Major G does make sense.



G# .
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2985840 - 04/18/19 12:10 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 981
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Originally Posted By: DocPate
I can see that Fred. Playing blues in E minor the Major G does make sense.



G# .

You're the teacher and master but I'm confused. Isn't E minor:

i – E minor, E minor seventh (Emin, Emin7)
iidim – F# diminished, F# minor seventh flat five (F#dim, F#m7b5)
III – G major, G major seventh (Gmaj, Gmaj7)
iv – A minor, A minor seventh (Amin, Amin7)
v – B minor, B minor seventh (Bmin, Bmin7)
VI – C major, C major seventh (Cmaj, Cmaj7)
VII – D major, D dominant seventh (Dmaj, D7)


Edited by DocPate (04/18/19 12:11 PM)

Top
#2985860 - 04/18/19 02:48 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Yes. I guess I didn't explain. I was discussing playing the A minor Pentatonic over a Blues in A Major. In that instance, the V7 chord would be E7. I was thinking about resolving to the Major 3rd tone of the E7 (G#) rather than the root (E) or the b7 (D). Also, resolving the I chord (A) to the Major 3rd (C#) rather than the predictable Root (A). You can get a nice bluesy sound by bending the b3 (C) into the C#. Sorry. I should have mentioned that.

In my defense, I should mention that I still have not replaced my dead computer, so I am posting from my phone. I hate typing with my thumb, so I'm trying to keep my comments short. You know, I can do almost everything from my phone, but still need a damn computer for the rest.

BTW. I do NOT consider myself a teacher and certainly not a master
I'm a guitarist, just like you and everyone else on this forum. I also belong to the Jazz Guitar Forum and there are numerous members whose expertise and abilities are light years ahead of mine.

_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2985880 - 04/18/19 05:16 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 981
Loc: Virginia
You underrate yourself Fred.

Very knowledgeable! I understand now where you are coming from.

Top
#2985933 - 04/19/19 07:43 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 12001
Loc: Northern California
Brother Fred, Maybe you can find a keyboard that plugs into that phone of yours or get yourself a tablet with a big typing screen? Compared to me, you are both a teacher and a master LOL! cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2985947 - 04/19/19 08:57 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Bro. Larry,

The main requirement for a computer is that my hard drive contains a multitude of important WORD documents like my resume, DD214 etc., as well as several musical charts two of which I paid to have created for me. These documents are very important to me.

Thank you for the kind compliment, but I stopped teaching and performing about 5 years ago. I now play solely for my own enjoyment and to feed my musical "soul".

I come to this forum and the JGF to "hang out" with other musicians. If I can offer information that will benefit others, I am happy to do so. However, it is not my intention to be pedantic or to set myself up as some sort of "expert".As a matter of fact, I am considering purchasing a one year membership to Truefire for $200. They boast 140 Jazz courses and I can continue learning without spending $50/hour for private instruction. I might even take a "Rockabilly" course or two and get into some "Texas Swing". I am a student of the guitar.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2985983 - 04/19/19 12:29 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
20k Club

Registered: 04/05/02
Posts: 24962
Loc: The Great Spirit's Handprint o...
My own introduction to m7, Maj7, and other voicings beyond plain m and Maj and R5thR "Power Chords" came unexpectedly from Andy Summers' delicious, ear-tweaking chord-work in the Police's "Roxanne" back in the '80s; I was never the same. I learned it from "TAB" in an issue of Guitar for the Practicing Musician, and rounded-out the experience by listening very closely to the original recording via my Walkman headphones and concluding that there were a few small errors in the magazine's printed version! Multi-level learning and shaping all-around. Ever since, so much of my own music has so rarely used the more typical garden-variety voicings and grips that when I do, it stands out and sounds like a musical "effect"!

Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
When playing Blues i ,often resolve to the major 3rd.


The Picardy third.


Exactly! Sounds great!


I believe that I ran across that in the ends of some passages in a Beatles song; "Things We Said Today", perhaps... ?
_________________________
Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~
_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

Top
#2986016 - 04/19/19 03:25 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
@Caev,

That's exactly the methodology I use to learn new music. First, I listen to as many recordings of the tune as I can find. I want to hear what other artists think. I steal some ideas. Then, I learn an arrangement from a chart. Then, I'll memorize it and finally, I'll incorporate the ideas I stole and add some of my own ideas. It is important to sound like you, rather than someone else when playing Jazz and Blues.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986024 - 04/19/19 04:09 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 981
Loc: Virginia
WTF???

"The Beatles had a knack for creating great chord progressions. One of the unique blends of chord work comes from a concept called subdominant minor harmony. The effect is so cool that when I learned of this little technique I would introduce it to my students as Beatleism. The reason is that SDM harmony is common element in Beatles music. I think that the Beatles just found the sound and decided to run with it. Paul McCartney had stated that the Beatles had to figure stuff out because they didn’t use theory at the time. It was trial and error and imagination that made them great.

I use the term Beatleism because it is an amusing way to remember a powerful technique. The technique is to use the b6 (Ab) tone to create the interaction of major scale with outside elements. The C major scale does not have a b6 (Ab) tone. The outside chords that contain the b6 note in relation to the C major scale create an interplay with the C major scale chords because they resolve into the chords and enhance the sounds. The b6 element moves into the G chord, the A minor chord, The E major chord is a great example as is the Bb chord. Both the E maj (G# note) and Bb (Ab note) chord contain a b6/#5 note. The b6/#5 note resolves into the C major scale chords with a powerful chord motion.

Ab, Bb, And C maj line up quite nicely. Subdominant minor harmony can be used in many different situations. If your chord progression needs a boost, you can weave some subdominant minor harmony into your progressions. Experiment with simple chord progressions in the key of C to work the magic. Almost any chord or group of chords that have a b6 in relation to the chord progression at hand can be used. To keep it simple use the term Beatlism, just remember what it represents. The b6 note in outside chord structures can be used for any key. Whatever the key is, track down the b6 property and use it for the outside chords.

Another good technique is to use substitutions to spruce up your chord progressions. Substitutions are chords that have the same harmonic cadence of the chord progression but with different chords. The idea is to create variations of the chords sound without changing the properties of the chord motion. Here is a sample in the key of C.

The chords of the C major scale are:

I C maj, II Dmin, III Emin, IV Fmaj, V G7, VI Amin *VII B-7b5 and VIII C maj

The I, III, and VI chords are tonic chords/ used for stability and rest.

The II, IV, and *VII chords are subdominant chords/ used for motion. They should resolve into a more powerful chord.

The V and and *VII chords are dominant chords/ they sound great when resolving into a tonic chord.

The *VII is a dual function chord, If it moves into a dominant chord it acts like a subdominant chord. If it moves into a tonic chord, it acts like a dominant chord.

The chords of like cadence can be substituted for each other. Play the examples below to experience the effect.

I Cmaj, VI Amin, IV Fmaj, V G7.

VI Amin, I Cmaj, IV Fmaj, *VII B-7b5

III Emin, VI Amin *VII B-7b5 V G

I Cmaj, VI Amin, IV F, V G7.

P.S. You can also double up on your cadence experiments with your own progressions."


https://symposium.music.org/index.php/49...lation-concepts


Edited by DocPate (04/19/19 04:10 PM)

Top
#2986074 - 04/20/19 05:39 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
SMH is a very interesting concept of which I was previously unaware.

You taught me something, Doc. Thanks!
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986089 - 04/20/19 07:37 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 981
Loc: Virginia
Fred, it taught me something as well. Interesting articles.

Top
#2986094 - 04/20/19 07:57 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 12001
Loc: Northern California
Brother Fred, Texas Swing and Rockabilly are a couple of my favorite genres. Both still use a clean sounding guitar and a lot of 7th, 9th and 6th chords too! Your equipment and jazz background should fit right in.

Like you, I'm staying home and playing for my own enjoyment these days but I do get together every other week or so and play with the guys just for practice and for fun. I have one more wedding commitment and that's going to be my last performance (other than an open mic or benefit gig once in a blue moon!). cool


Edited by Larryz (04/20/19 08:11 AM)
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2986121 - 04/20/19 10:58 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 981
Loc: Virginia

+1 Larry on your music choice. Me too?


I guess it takes at least 2 guitar players to adequately play the SMH

Interesting though

Read more: http://guitarplayersforum.boards.net/thread/794/subdominant-minor-harmony#ixzz5lexGr0wY

Top
#2986282 - 04/22/19 06:09 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Bro. Larry,

Yeah, love Texas Swing, Rockabilly and of course 30's & 40's Swing Jazz.

I'm excited about learning some new music. The Truefire membership is going to be my 70th b'day present to myself. I'm certain that some of those 140 Jazz courses will benefit me.

I thought about acquiring a new instrument, but truthfully, I don't need any more guitars. I am a Jazz and Blues player and my little collection will handle both genres with ease.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986290 - 04/22/19 07:45 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 12001
Loc: Northern California
Brother Fred,


It's never too late for us old dogs to learn some new tricks! I know you will go far on your new journey and the music will provide you with endless hours of joy! The Truefire membership looks interesting and I'll bet you'll find some great teachers that will get you moving and inspire you to learn more! Like you, I have more than enough guitars, but I may add one more and call it my 70th LOL!

I love jazzing up the old country tunes, working on a few old jazzy standards, playing rockabilly, etc. I'm doing my on thing more and more these days and always on the lookout for new ways to use chords to back up my vocals...I have forgot more than I know and I plan to revisit some of those tunes and maybe take a few lessons too! Good luck and good playing to you! thu
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2986316 - 04/22/19 10:56 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
surfergirl Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/12/17
Posts: 196
Loc: Waialua, Hi
Fred C, FYI: Truefire has a sale, $109. for a year. They also have individual lessons on sale. I'm looking at a country rhythm lesson for $25., regular price $39.

Oh oh, sale ends tomorrow.


Edited by surfergirl (04/22/19 11:09 AM)

Top
#2986325 - 04/22/19 11:43 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: surfergirl]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Surfergirl,

Thanks for the heads-up, but I can't pull the trigger right now. I have to buy a new computer. I am doing everything from my phone and although convenient, it's also a PIA. My birthday is in July and that's when I'll pull the trigger.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986327 - 04/22/19 12:08 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Bro. Larry,

I kinda'wish I could afford a new instrument, but everything I want is $1300-1800 and that expenditure would only buy "different" not "better". I DON'T NEED ANY MORE GUITARS! I would be spending money for no other reason than to spend money. I am very happy with my guitars.

I think I can hear my Peerless Monarch 16 calling to me from a guitar stand across the room. I'm gonna'go play now. I believe that when I "play", I play stuff I already know. When I "practice", I work on stuff I can't play.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986380 - 04/22/19 08:06 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 12001
Loc: Northern California
Brother Fred, was your Peerless guitar made in Korea? Do you have the stock pickup(s) in it? And, what do you think of the guitar? The guitar I'm looking into is made by Peerless. Thanks for any likes or dislikes info you can provide! cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2986404 - 04/23/19 03:50 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 11655
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I'm confused....

Does that model make 7th chords sound better? Otherwise...

Whassup with the bulletin board? ? idk

Or, another case of "message board ADHD"? wink

Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2986409 - 04/23/19 04:50 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Bro. Larry,

Peerless is a family owned and operated company in Korea. They make very high quality instruments and are very reasonably priced.

My Monarch 16 is absolutely gorgeous. It is unique because it was designed by Lou Del Rosso, the owner of Guitars-n-Jazz in Summit, New Jersey and is only available from Guitars-n-Jazz. Like many Jazz guitars, only has one pickup in the neck position. Interestingly, it is a mini-humbucker and remains stock. The tone is so beautiful that I have not felt the need to upgrade. I have no idea what brand of pickup it is.

I can unhesitatimgly recommend Peerless guitars. They are beautifully crafted, with tone and playability rivaling the best (and more expensive) instruments available. They are highly respected on the JGF and I would buy another Peerless in a heartbeat.

I'm guessing that you're thinking about the Conti guitars which are made by Peerless. IMO, an excellent choice.

Let me know if you have more questions.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986415 - 04/23/19 06:49 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 12001
Loc: Northern California
Thanks Brother Fred! Yes, I am looking at the Conti Heirloom made by Peerless and I am finally going to stop procrastinating and order one. I love the clean sounds of a good quality jazz guitar. I play mostly rhythm guitar on the clean setting and use the chords to back up my vocals. I plan to revisit some of the old standards and relearn the backing and passing chords in those tunes. I do like to improvise and play a little lead guitar as well. I'll keep you posted on how it works out when I get my hands on one! I had to wait until my special order strings came in as I can send them in with my order and they will set up the guitar to my preferred string gauge. So I'm ready to pull the trigger! cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2986417 - 04/23/19 06:56 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 12001
Loc: Northern California
Yes Fang, that model makes the 7th chords sound better.
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2986419 - 04/23/19 07:33 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
I don't know why you bother.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986421 - 04/23/19 07:46 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Yea. I love the beautiful, complex tone of a hollow body archtop too.

Man, you're going top shelf! I thought you were looking at the "Entrada". Is the "Heirloom" pressed or carved? I feel confident that you are going to love your Peerless. They really do make fine guitars.

Looking forward to reading your first impressions.

BTW: My Monarch 16 is also solid wood (Spruce/Maple) pressed, not carved. GORGEOUS ARCHTOP!!!

P.S. What kind (brand, set) of strings are you playing? I've been playing D'Addario EPN115 Pure Nickel 11-48 on my hollow bodies add D'Addario EXL115w 11-49 wound 3rd on my Sheraton.


Edited by Fred_C (04/23/19 07:54 AM)
Edit Reason: Add P.S.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986439 - 04/23/19 09:07 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 5328
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Larryz
Brother Fred, was your Peerless guitar made in Korea? Do you have the stock pickup(s) in it? And, what do you think of the guitar? The guitar I'm looking into is made by Peerless. Thanks for any likes or dislikes info you can provide! cool


Peerless are fabulous guitars. They made archtops for Gretsch, Epiphone & a few others before putting their own name on headstocks. Very fine instruments, but if you want to step up a notch in price & quality, take a look at some Eastmans.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2986443 - 04/23/19 09:39 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Scott Fraser]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Larryz
Brother Fred, was your Peerless guitar made in Korea? Do you have the stock pickup(s) in it? And, what do you think of the guitar? The guitar I'm looking into is made by Peerless. Thanks for any likes or dislikes info you can provide! cool


Peerless are fabulous guitars. They made archtops for Gretsch, Epiphone & a few others before putting their own name on headstocks. Very fine instruments, but if you want to step up a notch in price & quality, take a look at some Eastmans.


Scott,

I absolutely agree that Eastman makes a very fine guitar.


Peerless archtops go up to around $2500. Isn't this about what an Eastman costs? Both companies are "building to a price ppint" and at any given price ppint, compete with each other.

While at GnU I played a Peerless Gigmaster Jazz and an Eastman AR371. BOTH of these instruments were the manufacturers' take on an ES175. Both instruments cost around $1,000, both were excellent quality and NEITHER sounded like an ES175. They both had their own sonic character. I should mention that playability was excellent on both. I finally decided on the Peerless Monarch 16 at $1400. IMO, the level of performance was worth the incremental increase in price.

"Different strokes for different folks". Be well and play well, my friend.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986468 - 04/23/19 12:00 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 981
Loc: Virginia

Top
#2986471 - 04/23/19 12:37 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 5328
Loc: Los Angeles


The 5120 is a very nice & affordable archtop. I have one in sunburst. Love it, but the pickups are lackluster, & the bridge hardware is a bit cheap. Upgrading to better pickups & a solid bar bridge, like a Tru-Arc or Compton turns this into a great instrument. They have been replaced by the 5420 series, which includes better (IMO) blacktop Filtertron pickups, bound F holes, & a classier headstock. I have one of these too, & it's currently my main gig axe. I keep the 5120 tuned to open D, which has assured it an ongoing place in my collection. Hard to go wrong with a Gretsch.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2986487 - 04/23/19 02:50 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Scott Fraser]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
I have become a true believer regarding electronics upgrades (pots, caps, and especially pickups).

I have witnessed the sonic miracle that a pickup upgrade can provide.


Edited by Fred_C (04/23/19 02:51 PM)
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986519 - 04/23/19 08:45 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 12001
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Larryz
Brother Fred, was your Peerless guitar made in Korea? Do you have the stock pickup(s) in it? And, what do you think of the guitar? The guitar I'm looking into is made by Peerless. Thanks for any likes or dislikes info you can provide! cool


Peerless are fabulous guitars. They made archtops for Gretsch, Epiphone & a few others before putting their own name on headstocks. Very fine instruments, but if you want to step up a notch in price & quality, take a look at some Eastmans.


Scott,

I absolutely agree that Eastman makes a very fine guitar.


Peerless archtops go up to around $2500. Isn't this about what an Eastman costs? Both companies are "building to a price ppint" and at any given price ppint, compete with each other.

While at GnU I played a Peerless Gigmaster Jazz and an Eastman AR371. BOTH of these instruments were the manufacturers' take on an ES175. Both instruments cost around $1,000, both were excellent quality and NEITHER sounded like an ES175. They both had their own sonic character. I should mention that playability was excellent on both. I finally decided on the Peerless Monarch 16 at $1400. IMO, the level of performance was worth the incremental increase in price.



Thanks Scott, but I already pulled the trigger today on the 2 pickup Conti Heirloom. It cost $1,948 + $126 to upgrade the gig bag to a hard shell case + $74.95 shipping for a total of $2,148.95. It should be here within a couple weeks. I have friends that I have played with that have both electric and acoustic Eastmans and +1 they are great guitars!


@ Fred, I use GHS pure nickel Rollerwound 10-50's and a special order single 18 gauge wound 3rd. The rollerwounds are half way between a flatwound and a roundwound. They squeak a little less and allow me to bend a little on the 1st 2nd and 3rd strings. They are not dull like flatwounds and the bass really comes through nicely. The Conti guitars come stock with 11-48 GHS roundwounds with a wound 20 gauge 3rd, so I'm sending them a set of my strings, so their tech can set up my new baby...I hope Mr. Conti likes them!


I checked with them today on the carved vs pressed question. This is a solid spruce top with solid maple back and sides. The solid spruce top is pressed into shape. The only way to tell that it's not laminate (besides the increased acoustic volume and tone) is to remove a pickup and look at the edge of the pup cavity. Mine is in the Natural Blonde honey finish with the gold finger tail piece, gold Tom bridge on top of floating ebony, gold volume and tone knobs, gold tuners, ebony fret board with pearl and abalone inlays...can't wait to get this baby home! cool

This is what she will look and sound like in more capable hands. Robert Conti will make me a DVD of him playing my guitar before he ships it out with his name on the headstock to insure it meets with his approval. I love that headstock BTW! Mine is the same finish as this one:



cool

ps. I will be able to play those better sounding 7th chords on this baby LOL!




Edited by Larryz (04/23/19 09:18 PM)
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2986536 - 04/24/19 04:00 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 11655
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
How about either one of THESE "old timers"? wink





Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2986606 - 04/24/19 10:12 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 5328
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Scott,
I absolutely agree that Eastman makes a very fine guitar.
Peerless archtops go up to around $2500. Isn't this about what an Eastman costs? Both companies are "building to a price ppint" and at any given price point, compete with each other.


I haven't checked in on Peerless for a while, & it seems their pricing is moving to a more premium range. When I was last in a buying mood I think the Peerless line topped out around $1500.
Plus, I was fortunate to be able to get a couple new Eastmans at well under street price by being in the right place at the right time with the right friendly local dealer.

Quote:
While at GnU I played a Peerless Gigmaster Jazz and an Eastman AR371. BOTH of these instruments were the manufacturers' take on an ES175. Both instruments cost around $1,000, both were excellent quality and NEITHER sounded like an ES175.


I'm betting they both were better guitars than the Gibson. Around the time I picked up my first Gretsch I also tried an ES175. Besides being a truly ugly blue, it played terribly, wasn't set up right (this at a Gtr Ctr) had rough fret edges, etc. Honestly, a $300 Epiphone would beat that Gibson.

Quote:
They both had their own sonic character. I should mention that playability was excellent on both. I finally decided on the Peerless Monarch 16 at $1400. IMO, the level of performance was worth the incremental increase in price.
"Different strokes for different folks". Be well and play well, my friend.


I haven't had the pleasure of playing many of the higher end Peerless models, since, once they became better known under their own name, Peerless stopped being available at my local mom & pops store. But my mid-range Epiphones & Gretsches are mostly Peerless, & those have been great guitars.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2986607 - 04/24/19 10:19 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: whitefang]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 5328
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: whitefang
How about either one of THESE "old timers"? wink


Whitefang


Nice. That Stromberg headstock is very reminiscent of the Höfner headstock.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2986645 - 04/24/19 04:27 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Bro. Larry,

Congrats again on your beautiful new archtop.

I hope it brings you many years of enjoyment and may it motivate you to learn as much as you can about playing our chosen instrument, the guitar
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986646 - 04/24/19 04:45 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Scott Fraser]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Scott,

Thank you for your excellent response.

I absolutely agree with all of your observations.

I concur wholeheartedly regarding Gibson. They appear to not care about shoddy craftsmanship at all. In addition they are exhorbitantly priced. In general, I don't think that a Gibson is a good "Value Proposition".

I have gotten to the point where I would prefer an import costing $1500-2000. For that money, I could own a well-crafted, visually beautiful, sonically breathtaking, stage worthy instrument.

In all fairness, I should mention that there are a lot of Gibson players on the JGF who love their instruments. Well yeah, they're playing L-5's, Byrdlands, Super 400's and the like. Hell, if I could afford to spend $8,000-10,000 on a guitar, I had damn well better be happy with it!

_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986666 - 04/25/19 02:51 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
AFTERTHOUGHT:

If I were to purchase a "high end" instrument, it would probably be a Heritage.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986668 - 04/25/19 04:04 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Scott Fraser]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 11655
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Nice. That Stromberg headstock is very reminiscent of the Höfner headstock.


Stromberg seems to have had TWO headstock designs over the years. Sure, one reminiscent of the Hofner, and the other(and more familiar) looks like what TACOMA based their headstock on. wink As Hofner started 'bout 20 years earlier, but in Europe, and Stromberg in Boston, it would be hard to ascertain if the similarity was intentional or not.

And Fred----with ya 100% on the HERITAGE thing. wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2986695 - 04/25/19 06:57 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 12001
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Bro. Larry,

Congrats again on your beautiful new archtop.

I hope it brings you many years of enjoyment and may it motivate you to learn as much as you can about playing our chosen instrument, the guitar



thu
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2986710 - 04/25/19 08:24 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 5328
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
I concur wholeheartedly regarding Gibson. They appear to not care about shoddy craftsmanship at all. In addition they are exhorbitantly priced. In general, I don't think that a Gibson is a good "Value Proposition".


Hopefully the regime change at Gibson will change all that & they will once again become synonymous with high quality instruments. They've just emerged from a very dark period.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2986713 - 04/25/19 08:35 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Scott Fraser]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
+1.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986900 - 04/26/19 03:59 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 11655
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I might facetiously disagree with Fred in that Gibson cared SO much about shoddy craftsmanship that they seemed to make it a top priority! wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2986933 - 04/26/19 07:01 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: whitefang]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 981
Loc: Virginia
Gibson obviously had problems over the past few years. Not only with poor quality on their top-of-the-line? guitars but with the penalties imposed over the endangered wood species. But it does seem like the new CEO and Board have the correct priorities now. Only time will tell if the Company can regain the image and value proposition they once held.

I for one am willing to give them a chance to prove themselves (since I'm not planning to shell out several thousand bucks for a new Les Paul grin ). I still consider them right up there with Martin for an acoustic guitar. Particularly if I'm wanting the deep resounding bass for the Delta Blues.

Top
#2986961 - 04/26/19 08:44 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: whitefang]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Good point.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2986962 - 04/26/19 08:46 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
Hey, it's your money.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2987090 - 04/27/19 03:49 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 11655
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
OK, so let's say...

I wish to buy an LP, but don't wish to pay thousands of dollars for the supposedly "poor quality" newer instruments, so which year would any consider a good "cut-off" year for purchasing a "previously owned" model? idk
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2987127 - 04/27/19 08:57 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: whitefang]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 981
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: whitefang
OK, so let's say...

I wish to buy an LP, but don't wish to pay thousands of dollars for the supposedly "poor quality" newer instruments, so which year would any consider a good "cut-off" year for purchasing a "previously owned" model? idk
Whitefang


I think Gibson began to have quality issues around 2010. In 2009 or thereabouts, they had the "wood" issue and spent a lot of bucks to try to defend their position. It was around this time that they began to have financial problems and as a result traded the typical Gibson quality for more profits. So, I probably would opt for a pre-2010 guitar if I were to look for a used one.

Top
#2987184 - 04/27/19 09:37 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
20k Club

Registered: 04/05/02
Posts: 24962
Loc: The Great Spirit's Handprint o...
Originally Posted By: DocPate
I think Gibson began to have quality issues around 2010. In 2009 or thereabouts, they had the "wood" issue and spent a lot of bucks to try to defend their position. It was around this time that they began to have financial problems and as a result traded the typical Gibson quality for more profits. So, I probably would opt for a pre-2010 guitar if I were to look for a used one.


Try long before that. My 1996 Les Paul had some SERIOUS quality issues and never should have left the factory the way it was, but I got it effectively brand-new for a used price considerably less than a third of its list-price at the time and I got most of what I wanted in a Les Paul.

But decades before that, a company called Norlin had acquired the Gibson brand, and wreaked all manner of crap substandard quality on Gibson's materials and design in their flagship lines... I thought that this was well known...
_________________________
Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~
_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

Top
#2987204 - 04/28/19 04:03 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 11655
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
OK. Thanks, I think....
hitt
wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2987242 - 04/28/19 02:56 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 5328
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Caevan O'Shite
But decades before that, a company called Norlin had acquired the Gibson brand, and wreaked all manner of crap substandard quality on Gibson's materials and design in their flagship lines...


Quite analogous to Fender's CBS period.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2987243 - 04/28/19 02:59 PM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: whitefang]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 5328
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: whitefang
OK, so let's say...
I wish to buy an LP, but don't wish to pay thousands of dollars for the supposedly "poor quality" newer instruments, so which year would any consider a good "cut-off" year for purchasing a "previously owned" model? idk
Whitefang


What I would recommend would be getting a PRS, since I feel they've perfected what Gibson started, design-wise. And apparently Gibson felt threatened enough by PRS's competition that they sued when PRS came out with a single cutaway LP-like design.
Also Eastman has an LP design guitar, which I haven't played, but if everything else which Eastman has made holds true, it will be a superior alternative to the Gibson. Ditto Heritage.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2987427 - 04/30/19 03:59 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Scott Fraser]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 11655
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
All fine ideas, sure, but.....

"LP like" isn't really an "LP". wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2987452 - 04/30/19 06:39 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: whitefang]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2198
Loc: PA
I owned a Guild Bluesbird AAA for a couple of years. It was designed on the LP formula of a solid maple top on a mahogany body. Somewhat different in that the body was "chambered" rather than solid. So, it was considered a "semi-hollow" design. Ditto the Carvin Sh550 I owned. Both guitars were essentially shaped like a LP. Both were gorgeous instruments
And both were under $2K.

If I were interested in a Les Paul, I would probably buy an Epiphone for around $700, upgrade the pickups for around $250 and wind up with a nice LP for around $1K.

On a related topic, there are several videos on YouTube which compare an Epi Sheraton II with an ES335 and videos detailing the Epi ES335 PRO. It looks and sounds really nice.

I have no interest in owning a $4K+ Gibson.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
#2987473 - 04/30/19 08:08 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 12001
Loc: Northern California
I have only owned 2 LP's. The LP Deluxe I bought in 72 and wish I had never sold back around '84. And, the LP Classic I own now that I bought about 2 years ago to finally replace the one I sold. I am more than happy with the one I own now and it cost me $1,600 new. It did have a quality control issue with the output jack as did my Epiphone ES-175. I had both of them fixed by my tech for $40 bucks. cool


Edited by Larryz (04/30/19 08:25 AM)
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2987639 - 05/01/19 04:46 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
10k Club

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 11655
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
If the only quality issues with the newer LPs is electronics, that sounds like an easy( albeit not really all that cheap) fix. Then the problem becomes finding a good enough and reliable enough tech to help with it? wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2987644 - 05/01/19 05:22 AM Re: 7ths Chords [Re: whitefang]
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 7665
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Re the apparent shift here from discussion of musical interval effects, all companies can have quality control issues at any time.
This relates a bit to the concurrent "boutique or brand" thread.

In the (actually increasing) range of product, uh, producers in the modern world there's in fact less diff between some items (So, yes, "LP-like can be more LP than an LP") but still a flawed item can occur.
My perennial advice on acquisitions applies.

Further (& a bit controversially) I'll assert that between what are viewed a totally diff types of instruments, those diffs are often psychological as much as actual.
There are ways to make very diverse gear combinations sound like each other.
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  A String, Bluesape, myles_rose