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#2947572 - 09/11/18 06:43 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: Reezekeys]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Itís not much. So few are offering poly after touch to begin with. The pressure strip for mono AT is just to differentiate between the flagship and more affordable giggerís instrument.
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#2947579 - 09/11/18 07:08 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: ElmerJFudd]
jefsco Offline
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yamaha just keeps cranking keyboards out lately.... like
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#2947583 - 09/11/18 07:15 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: Bif_]
Legatoboy Offline
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The organs in the MX-88 were better than the previous ones Yamaha had in their boards up to and including the original CP boards...I sold the MX for an SP6 (I'm very happy BTW). The new Yamaha organs were more usable with a better Leslie Sim, still not up to Kurzweil KB3 though or Korg CX-3 (the CX-3 being the best of those imho)... also the ones in the original Montage I noticed in my weekly playing of that ax in GC close to work, they are better also than previous with a bit more grind and better sim. in them but nothing to write home about!


Edited by Legatoboy (09/11/18 08:21 AM)
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#2947610 - 09/11/18 08:39 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: Reezekeys]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
IMO: no release velocity is not that much of an issue to me, however my hat is off to anyone that really makes use of it - I tried a few times, but the ability to vary my "key-off" technique is just not that good. I'd be curious to know if there really are a decent number of keyboardists that use rv.

I'd say RV is not for consciously "using." It's for programming in sounds (or taking advantage of factory-programmed sounds) that better respond to your touch. For example, a real piano decay sounds different if you release the key very slowly than it does on a normal lift (assuming the sustain pedal is not depressed). Therefore, playing slowly and softly on a keyboard that can sense release velocity could provide a more authentic piano sound. So it's not that you intentionally lift more slowly when you want that sound; rather it's that, when you naturally play more softly and slowly, you can better get the sound you'd want when playing that way. Or for string passages, you might want more abrupt decays when you're playing quickly/aggressively, and a slightly longer decay when moving among notes more slowly. (I am using "decay" in these examples to refer to what, in synth terms, would happen in the "release" phase, and that is what can be altered with release velocty.)
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#2947612 - 09/11/18 08:45 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: Legatoboy]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Legatoboy
The organs in the MX-88 were better than the previous ones Yamaha had in their boards up to and including the original CP boards

That's interesting, I was under the impression that the MX and CP sounds were all taken from the Motif XS. Maybe some effects differences?

Originally Posted By: Legatoboy
also the ones in the original Montage...are better also than previous with a bit more grind and better sim

The older S30/S80 had a great tube organ sound. I could not duplicate it in the XS/XF environment. The tube overdrive effect was better in the old series. I haven't played a Montage yet, I'd be curious to know if the Montage/MODX compares.
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#2947616 - 09/11/18 08:51 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: Legatoboy]
benj2017 Offline
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Registered: 08/07/18
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Originally Posted By: Legatoboy
The organs in the MX-88 were better than the previous ones Yamaha had in their boards up to and including the original CP boards..


So I own the Motif XF8, MOXF6, MOX6, and the MX49, and I haven't really noticed any difference in the overall organ sound in any of the keyboards that use the XF Samples (all of which I happen to own)

I haven't dug too deeply into the MX so it's possible that the presets are just edited better and have been tweaked to allow for the MX's more limited FX palette. However, I think the base samples are the all the same. (I could be wrong on this)

I've been wondering lately if adding a Ventilator would make using the Motif organs more fun, as one of the major limitations seems to be the Leslie. I think you would also need some sort of Vibrato/Chorus pedal (or you could just use the Yamaha onboard FX), and then you could just strip the Yamaha Voices down to the basic Elements (i.e., samples) and run them dry to the Vent and FX pedal(s).

Obviously wouldn't be a completely authentic Hammond experience but for basic pads and solos it might be adequate for cover bands, and one-offs.

Anyone tried this?


Edited by benj2017 (09/11/18 08:53 AM)
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#2947618 - 09/11/18 08:59 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: benj2017]
Legatoboy Offline
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Quote:
I haven't dug too deeply into the MX so it's possible that the presets are just edited better and have been tweaked to allow for the MX's more limited FX palette. However, I think the base samples are the all the same. (I could be wrong on this)


I believe you may be correct about the editing but the Leslie Sim has defiantly been enhanced and some of the presets just seem better than the older ones in my CP-50 and probably the CP-5...can't comment on the Motif XF8, MOXF6, MOX6's .... and in fact those are 1 generation newer I believe in the XF8 than the original CP's...
I just know the MX was better than the old ones I had in the CP-50 and some other Yammy boards of that vintage...they preformed better on the gig too. Though they really are not my cup of tea...I'll take the old CX-3 in the Kronos over the Yamaha, Roland synth organs and that over the KB3 in the SP6 which is the 2nd best I feel right now


Edited by Legatoboy (09/11/18 09:02 AM)
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#2947621 - 09/11/18 09:07 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: benj2017]
timwat Offline
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Originally Posted By: benj2017
I've been wondering lately if adding a Ventilator would make using the Motif organs more fun, as one of the major limitations seems to be the Leslie. I think you would also need some sort of Vibrato/Chorus pedal (or you could just use the Yamaha onboard FX), and then you could just strip the Yamaha Voices down to the basic Elements (i.e., samples) and run them dry to the Vent and FX pedal(s).

Obviously wouldn't be a completely authentic Hammond experience but for basic pads and solos it might be adequate for cover bands, and one-offs.

Anyone tried this?


I've done something somewhat similar - because my unweighted keyboard is a Nord Wave, my "organ" solution is a static "organ-ish" patch through an EH Lester K.

I'm presuming the best Yamaha organ patch will be more authentic than my Wave patch, and forum consensus is that the Vent is a better sim pedal than the Lester K.

Still, I have to tell you - my bandmates are in love with this. Just last gig, my seasoned pro guitar player came up at set break and offered, "Man, Tim, your organ sound is awesome. Especially love whatever Leslie pedal you use - that thing sounds incredible to me."

The trick, of course, is to feed the pedal a completely dry, unmodulated, no-vibrato, no-chorus version and let the pedal sim do all its magic on its own.

Anyway, its the way I currently keep myself from buying a dedicated clonewheel.

Back on on-topic, this MODX looks pretty interesting to me.

So is it essentially Montage-class sounds, in a smaller, feature de-limited package? Sort of like a Yamaha Krome?

Does anyone know how much the 76 key version is purported to weigh?
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#2947622 - 09/11/18 09:09 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: Legatoboy]
benj2017 Offline
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Registered: 08/07/18
Posts: 33
Gotcha,

If you go over to the Motifator forum and do a search, there was a whole big controversial discussion/rant/war about whether there was any difference in sound between the Motif XF and the MOXF.

I think the overall conclusion that there wasn't any changes in FX or samples, etc. However it sounds like you are comparing to the pre-XF sounds which were likely on the CP50.

I owned an MO8 prior to my current boards, and I can definitely 100% say the organ/leslie improved when the XF series came out. Since this is what the MX soundset draws from, I'd say we probably agree on that.

I remember demoing the MOXF organs against the Nord Electro at GC when it first came out and thinking they weren't that far off. However, I think the Yamaha starts to suffer when the Leslie is spinning fast and when you use voices that incorporate samples with the higher harmonic drawbars pulled out.
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#2947623 - 09/11/18 09:11 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: timwat]
benj2017 Offline
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Registered: 08/07/18
Posts: 33
Originally Posted By: timwat
Originally Posted By: benj2017
I've been wondering lately if adding a Ventilator would make using the Motif organs more fun, as one of the major limitations seems to be the Leslie. I think you would also need some sort of Vibrato/Chorus pedal (or you could just use the Yamaha onboard FX), and then you could just strip the Yamaha Voices down to the basic Elements (i.e., samples) and run them dry to the Vent and FX pedal(s).

Obviously wouldn't be a completely authentic Hammond experience but for basic pads and solos it might be adequate for cover bands, and one-offs.

Anyone tried this?


I've done something somewhat similar - because my unweighted keyboard is a Nord Wave, my "organ" solution is a static "organ-ish" patch through an EH Lester K.

I'm presuming the best Yamaha organ patch will be more authentic than my Wave patch, and forum consensus is that the Vent is a better sim pedal than the Lester K.

Still, I have to tell you - my bandmates are in love with this. Just last gig, my seasoned pro guitar player came up at set break and offered, "Man, Tim, your organ sound is awesome. Especially love whatever Leslie pedal you use - that thing sounds incredible to me."

The trick, of course, is to feed the pedal a completely dry, unmodulated, no-vibrato, no-chorus version and let the pedal sim do all its magic on its own.

Anyway, its the way I currently keep myself from buying a dedicated clonewheel.



Does the Lester K have a vibrato/chorus effect? I was just checking out the Vent and it doesn't seem to...
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#2947624 - 09/11/18 09:18 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: benj2017]
timwat Offline
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Originally Posted By: benj2017
Does the Lester K have a vibrato/chorus effect? I was just checking out the Vent and it doesn't seem to...


No sir. Just Fast / Slow / Brake, and overdrive.

Some speed and balance adjustments as well, but no adjustments to ramp acceleration time. The larger Lester G provides that, I believe, as well as a compressor if you wanted it.
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#2947625 - 09/11/18 09:24 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: timwat]
Legatoboy Offline
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Quote:
However, I think the Yamaha starts to suffer when the Leslie is spinning fast and when you use voices that incorporate samples with the higher harmonic drawbars pulled out.
\

Without a doubt, you are correct...I never brought the mod-wheel fully forward on fast when I went from Choral to Tremolo ..and yes it gets worse with patches using the upper drawbars.. it gets cheesy very fast at the top end of the Leslie simm. and unfortunately is still somewhat horrible... good in a pinch though as long as you don't max out the Leslie modulation on the brighter Hammond organ patches. The Slow speed on the MX's Leslie simm rotation is also weak..wouldn't punch through the guitars w/strong rotation sense unless they were playing at a lower volume...


Edited by Legatoboy (09/11/18 09:41 AM)
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#2947627 - 09/11/18 09:32 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
Reezekeys Offline
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Loc: NYC area
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
I'd say RV is not for consciously "using." It's for programming in sounds (or taking advantage of factory-programmed sounds) that better respond to your touch. For example, a real piano decay sounds different if you release the key very slowly than it does on a normal lift (assuming the sustain pedal is not depressed). Therefore, playing slowly and softly on a keyboard that can sense release velocity could provide a more authentic piano sound. So it's not that you intentionally lift more slowly when you want that sound; rather it's that, when you naturally play more softly and slowly, you can better get the sound you'd want when playing that way.

Any piano libraries out there that do this Ė use a different decay/release sample with a low release velocity? I haven't heard of one but of course it could exist.

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Or for string passages, you might want more abrupt decays when you're playing quickly/aggressively, and a slightly longer decay when moving among notes more slowly. (I am using "decay" in these examples to refer to what, in synth terms, would happen in the "release" phase, and that is what can be altered with release velocty.)

That's exactly what I tried using rv to do - the feature seems built for this. Maybe if I practiced a lot more I could get it together but I was never able to get the release lengths to sound the way I wanted, no matter how hard I tried.

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#2947630 - 09/11/18 09:46 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: timwat]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: timwat
Originally Posted By: benj2017
Does the Lester K have a vibrato/chorus effect? I was just checking out the Vent and it doesn't seem to...

No sir. Just Fast / Slow / Brake, and overdrive.

If your goal is authenticity, CV in a pedal would be problematic because the percussion would end up going through the CV as well, which you don't want. Of course, that happens with rompler-based organ-with-percussion sounds anyway. You might be able to address that by layering a no-percussion drawbar sound (which would go through the CV effect) with a percussion-only sound (which would not), and then send that combination out to your Lester/Vent/whatever.
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#2947638 - 09/11/18 10:24 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
benj2017 Offline
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Registered: 08/07/18
Posts: 33
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: timwat
Originally Posted By: benj2017
Does the Lester K have a vibrato/chorus effect? I was just checking out the Vent and it doesn't seem to...

No sir. Just Fast / Slow / Brake, and overdrive.

If your goal is authenticity, CV in a pedal would be problematic because the percussion would end up going through the CV as well, which you don't want. Of course, that happens with rompler-based organ-with-percussion sounds anyway. You might be able to address that by layering a no-percussion drawbar sound (which would go through the CV effect) with a percussion-only sound (which would not), and then send that combination out to your Lester/Vent/whatever.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Anyway, I'm happy with my Nord/Yamaha combo for now. I feel like the two boards balance each other out.
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#2947642 - 09/11/18 10:33 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: benj2017]
benj2017 Offline
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Registered: 08/07/18
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So my two general complaints/concerns about this keyboard are the lack of bank/voice buttons, and the issue that was/is present in the Montage with not being able to select midi channels for the performance parts. (They are fixed at 1-16)

Without going into a bunch of detail, I like to play the MOXF sounds from my Nord Stage and this is much easier if I create my layers and splits on the Yamaha (in Song/pattern mode) with the Melas tools and then just assign the ones to be played by the Nord to the same midi channel. Then I just run the MOXF in Master mode and play any additional voices on the MOXF's keyboard. I also typically send program changes from the Yamaha to the Nord to select either my default midi controller patch or a custom one for a specific song.

That being said, it seems like a pretty sweet board and I'll probably buy one eventually... cry

Damn you Yamaha!
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#2947655 - 09/11/18 11:18 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: benj2017]
mojkarma Offline
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Registered: 09/18/17
Posts: 47
Originally Posted By: benj2017
So my two general complaints/concerns about this keyboard are the lack of bank/voice buttons


As a Montage owner I have to say, the existing buttons on the right of the screen aren't a big help for selecting sound either. To select sounds directly, they have to be put into the live set list. That list consist of 16 pages, each page contains 16 slots. Those buttons on the right can be used to select the 16 pages (you do this by pressing of of the buttons in the first four columns) and 16 slots within each page (the last four columns).
So, 256 performances can be accessed with just two button presses.
The big problem - at least for me - is that those button are not at all labeled as sound selection buttons. Selecting sounds is just their second or third function. You cannot write down where your needed performances are, like for example A-8 what would mean, page A, slot number 8. Instead, you have to visually memorize the relative position of the buttons (they are lit) and that is hardly possible.
It is really bad and I use the setlist maker app on my ipad to select my needed performances.
So, selecting those slots in the liveset mode is not really more difficult on the modx then it is on the montage.
The motif line was in that regard much better imho.


Edited by mojkarma (09/11/18 11:26 AM)

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#2947668 - 09/11/18 11:53 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: mojkarma]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: mojkarma
As a Montage owner I have to say, the existing buttons on the right of the screen aren't a big help for selecting sound either.

So they cannot be used as, say, MOXF buttons can?

My question had been, since the MODX does eliminate all those hard buttons that are on the Montage, whether they have added some alternate display screens you can call up to provide similar access to functions as those buttons did. But I haven't used a Montage, and I was assuming those buttons did the kinds of things they did on the MOXF, so maybe this question doesn't make sense.


Edited by AnotherScott (09/11/18 11:56 AM)
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#2947678 - 09/11/18 12:38 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
KorgyPorky Offline
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Registered: 03/03/17
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Does this mean we will see a new montage X at Namm 2019?

I would love to see a VA, VL and waveform engine added to the next Montage..
And hopefully the return of something to play backins...
And offcourse the dreaded 9th slider.. and a bigger screen...
And a lighter 88 key version.. with the same keybed quallity as the orriginal(or better)

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#2947681 - 09/11/18 01:03 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: KorgyPorky]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: KorgyPorky
Does this mean we will see a new montage X at Namm 2019?

Doubt it... the next generation Motifs didn't appear so quickly after the scaled down versions of the previous generation (i.e. time between MOXF and Montage, MOX and Motif XF, etc.).
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#2947688 - 09/11/18 01:29 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
mojkarma Offline
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Registered: 09/18/17
Posts: 47
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: mojkarma
As a Montage owner I have to say, the existing buttons on the right of the screen aren't a big help for selecting sound either.

So they cannot be used as, say, MOXF buttons can?


The buttons on the motif/mo are much clearer labeled. You have bank, category buttons and those 16 buttons for direct access within a category/bank.

Here a picture of the buttons on the Montage when it is in the live set mode:



As you can see, there are 4 rows with 8 buttons in each. The first four columns are lit so that they can be distinguished from the last four columns which select one of the 16 sounds within one (of the sixteen) pages.

You can also see in the first four columns that they are not numbered or labeled consistently as buttons for sound selecting.
On this image you can see that actually a performance on page 16, first slot is selected. Therefor the lower right button is selected on those lit buttons and the upper left for the first slot.
But imagine you want to select a performance which is on page 10, slot 13! Since there are no numbers from 1 - 16 below the buttons, you have to count them quickly to get the number 10 on the page selecting row and number 13 on the slot selecting row. It is veeeeery unintuitive. The picture is small and blurry but you can see that the buttons are labeled from left to right to represent the number of parts, arps and other stuff.
As I said, from my personal experience this is a rather cumbersome way to select sounds and I do it with my ipad by sending MSB/LSB/PC messages to the Montage.

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#2947692 - 09/11/18 01:53 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: mojkarma]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: mojkarma
You can also see in the first four columns that they are not numbered or labeled consistently as buttons for sound selecting.
...
imagine you want to select a performance which is on page 10, slot 13! Since there are no numbers from 1 - 16 below the buttons, you have to count them quickly to get the number 10 on the page selecting row and number 13 on the slot selecting row.

From your description, it sounds like a problem that might be easily remedied with a little creative use of a Brother Label Maker.
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#2947699 - 09/11/18 02:26 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: Reezekeys]
Aidan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
And aftertouch.... To me it's strictly a marketing decision to make keyboardists who really need AT (like myself) spend the extra hundreds of dollars (or more) to buy the next tier of keyboards.


Of course it is. That's business.
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#2947706 - 09/11/18 03:49 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: mojkarma]
Bif_ Offline
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Originally Posted By: mojkarma
It is veeeeery unintuitive.


Classic Yamaha approach.

I love Yamaha and have two of their boards but they have engineer's design their interfaces. They need some normal people involved in the process.
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#2947719 - 09/11/18 06:37 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
benj2017 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/07/18
Posts: 33
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: mojkarma
You can also see in the first four columns that they are not numbered or labeled consistently as buttons for sound selecting.
...
imagine you want to select a performance which is on page 10, slot 13! Since there are no numbers from 1 - 16 below the buttons, you have to count them quickly to get the number 10 on the page selecting row and number 13 on the slot selecting row.

From your description, it sounds like a problem that might be easily remedied with a little creative use of a Brother Label Maker.


Ha ha, I am way ahead of you guys, this is how I set up my MOXF so I can get to patches quickly. I think if I did something similar on the Montage, it would be pretty easy to navigate but I could be wrong. I'm also interested in setting up my ipad to transmit bank/program changes, so ideally I could do either depending on the situation.




Edited by benj2017 (09/11/18 06:39 PM)
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#2947733 - 09/11/18 08:05 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: benj2017]
MotiDave Offline
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On XF and MOXF I just get the settlist before the gig and re-order from song 1 to X using Melas SW. I know some of you are more spontaneous jam guys - maybe that doesnít work for you. For me - i start at A1 and each song is the next button not lit. Easy peasy. A lot easier than trying to read a correlation chart and then find the right program. I donít read well without glasses, i donít need to read if it is pre-programmed.

I was shocked that Montage came out with live set list feature and they didnít allow user to drag and drop on the big fancy touch screen to re-order and change set patches. My understanding is you canít even insert a Performance between two existing performances - you have to move each lower Perf down one to make a space for it. Tsk tsk ... its 2018, Yamaha - shouldnít be a big ask to be able to re-order and change a set list like we do on our mp3, iPod, iPad, PC, ... every other conceivable electronic device we use. Not like this is some obscure seldom-needed task for a gigging musician. Iíd wager half of musicians need to do this before every gig. It was supposed to be a live performance rig, right?

Once again Melas rode to rescue to offer a PC/Mac library manager tool. Thatís easy enough, cost is absorbable - but ideally shouldnít need to plug into an external computer just to re-order a set list. The things Yammy makes us live with - engineers donít gig or it would be in the top 10 of functional feature needs.
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#2947734 - 09/11/18 08:11 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: MotiDave]
benj2017 Offline
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Registered: 08/07/18
Posts: 33
Yeah, the majority of my gigs either start with a setlist which is then promptly ignored, or the MD just calls random tunes we haven't played in three months.... hitt PianoBanana puff
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Studio: Motif XF8/Macbook Pro/Plug-ins
Live: Nord Stage Compact EX/MOXF6 or MOX6/MX49

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#2947737 - 09/11/18 08:22 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: Reezekeys]
Fleer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/21/17
Posts: 79
Loc: Boston/Cambridge
Read somewhere that Motif aftertouch wasnít very well implemented. Maybe weíre better off without.

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#2947739 - 09/11/18 09:09 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: Fleer]
EscapeRocks Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 4868
Loc: Texas
I think the Montage is leaps and bound easier to program then my old MOXF.

I don't own a Montage, but I have spent time with one, helping program some shows for a friend. That touch screen...wow! Love it.

I think the MODX is very cool. I bought my MOXF back then, instead of Motif due to $$$$. I might be tempted to spring for a MODX 7.
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David
Gig Rig: Casio PX-5S | Arturia Keylab 61 | Alesis Vortex Wireless 2 | Mainstage |


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#2947741 - 09/11/18 09:33 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: EscapeRocks]
jefsco Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/20/18
Posts: 123
Loc: birmingham, al
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jeff // yamaha p515

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