Fatar Keybeds

[Mudshark]

Does anybody on Gods green earth make a keyboard without a Fatar keybed other than Yamaha? Had a Kurzweil PC88 some years ago. Played it out for a few years (after the warranty expired) and the keys got so bad I took it to Sweetwater. They replaced the Keybed for $750.00 bucks. Played that for a few years and the keybed is junk once more. Have played Yamaha S90's ever since and have not had any problems. Now I'm replacing keys on my newer version Korg CX3 (2001). Can you guess who made the keybed on that? The black keys have weighted keys, but just the black ones. Replaced those a few times now Korg will not be offering them any more. Need to replaces it with an equal or better B3 clone. Looked at Hammond's SK1, answer to my 1rst question was yes, it is a Fatar Keybed. Salesman answered with pride like it was a good thing. Nord uses Fatar keybeds in it's keyboards. How so many high end keyboard manufacturers can use these junk keybeds in their designs is beyond me. Anybody know of a good B3 clone that has a decent keybed in it? (spose asking for one that doesn't solder the jacks directly to the circuit board is too much). Thanks!

[Delaware Dave]

Hmm, I've owned several keyboards over the past 20 years and all of them have had Fatar keybeds. 61 key synth weighted, 76 key synth weighted, semi-weighted and fully weighted and 88 key fully weighted. Not one problem with any of the 8 or so keyboards that I've owned. All were gigged heavily as well. Gee, how would you explain that?

[mate stubb]

Mudshark - are you beating your keyboards with large fish?

 

I think maybe Roland makes their own actions too, but precious few others except for boutique makers like Infinite Response.

[Kawai James]

Kawai, Korg, and Casio all develop their own actions too.

[AnotherScott]

Does anybody on Gods green earth make a keyboard without a Fatar keybed other than Yamaha?

Sure. Casio, Kawai, and Roland also make their own keybeds. I believe most Korgs are also their own design, though they did use Fatar on the second version of the digital CX3 (the waterfall version). Hammond uses their own design only on the high end (like the XK-3c). Arturia uses CME.

 

Smaller companies often can't make keybeds as cost effectively as they can buy them from Fatar. In fact, sometimes you're lucky to get that. Novation uses Fatar in their better boards, and some lesser keybed in their cheaper ones.

 

Anybody know of a good B3 clone that has a decent keybed in it?

Roland VR-700 or VK-8. Not state of the art sonically these days, but still a great feeling action. Put it through a Ventilator, and the sound will be competitive with anything else.

[Mudshark]

I wish you continued success with that. I can play a little more heavy handed at times than some I suppose, not as much as others; however, my CX3 really only gets my right hand, bass lines I do on the Yamaha. All the weighted keys on the CX3 are broken. I've heard similar complaints about Fatar keybeds from other players so I know I'm not the only one.

[wmp]

Did somebody say keybed?

 

My PC88 war tale is pretty gruesome. Fear not. The PC2x held up much better and the PC3x is quite an improvement over that. Three or four years with no action problems at all. It takes a beating. On top of that, it's much smoother and quieter mechanically than the PC2x, which was a big improvement over the PC88.

 

 

[mate stubb]

Heavy handed players rather famously break the Roland RD actions too, so it's not just Fatar's problem.

 

They all have plastic parts in them to keep the weight reasonable, so that's an Achille's heel.

[marino]

Heavy handed players rather famously break the Roland RD actions too, so it's not just Fatar's problem.

Oh yeah. I've been able to break keys on Roland, Yamaha and Oberheim instruments, but not on any of the several Fatar/Studiologic keybeds which I have owned/played. I had middle C on a Roland RD250S failing on me onstage, for example... and the horrible red glue syndrome on my XP80...

 

 

[Ekewaka]

I have an old Alesis where the middle C key is triggering few velocities. Reason: lots of late nights programming kick drums for dance music... Only case where I managed to wear down a keyboard.

[hazerkeys]

My Pc88 had many key problems , but it was the nature of the beast (weights kept falling off, aftertouch lost, etc) .. but it still hangs in there in my practice rig LOL - My current PC1X gig rig has been going strong for years now without key issues (and I can play hard at times) .. same for my Korg CX3 (2002 ?), no key issues there either !! ...

[Aidan]

If you're not a big enough name to make it economically viable to make your own keybeds, Fatar really is pretty much the only game in town. Some manufacturers, like Nord, add their own adjustments.

 

It's unfortunate, for sure, but it's basic market economics.

[ITGITC]

 

Do you keep a cover over your keyboards when you aren't playing them?

 

I believe that dirt is a major player in keyboard failure...

 

I'm not sure if playing with your feet or hamfists is worse.

 

I'll ask BluesKeys. He'll know.

 

Here in tobacco country, (the call letters of a radio station in my hometown were "WEED"), smoke was everywhere we played. Fortunately, such is no longer the case.

 

The main thing to worry about now is whether the venue is located next to a meth house. (I so hate playing in those country club / golf course communities!)

 

 

http://www.jazzmuseum.se/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/121jerry-lee-lewis.jpg

 

 

[Bill H.]

Fatar makes a wide variety of keybeds in a wide range of price points. So does Yamaha BTW. I don't think you'd have the same luck with a P105 as you have had with your S90s.

 

Like many others in this forum, I've had no problems with the Fatar keybeds in my gear.

 

You are reporting problems with keyboards that are well over 10 years old. If you continue to have issues like this, you might think about investing in a better sound system. Lots of players (including myself) will back off a bit on the heavy handedness if they can hear themselves well.

[b3halt]

Does anybody think it's kind of easy to scratch the fatar keys? I owned the C1, the C2, and the Mojo, and there are some small scuff marks because there are some spots where my nails sometimes hit. One spot is pretty bad because I can feel the gaps. It's hard to explain, but the key C5 often get a scuff mark because I play my right hand chords around that range, and my index finger nail sometimes scratches the surface... This often happens when I play outside because the surface of the keys get dusty, and it gets harder to slide.

 

I never experienced this with the piano keys like Yamaha, Kawai, Roland, and Casio, and the XK-3c.

[Mudshark]

Nope, don't pound on it with ma feet nor the ham-fists either. My onstage amp is a Motion Sound KBR-3D which I can hear no matter what happens. It really is only an issue when they put metal wieghts inside plastic. I think the plastic they use gets brittle and cracks. Hot and cold enviroments could be a cause as well. The thermal expansion and contraction amounts differ greatly with metal than with plastic, and I live in Ohio where the trailer get mighty cold and then real hot in the summer. I barely touch the left side of the CX3 yet all the wieghts are cracked and broken there. I bought the CX3 in 2001 so age may play a role. If your fatar keyboard starts sounding like some maracas when you move them, it is a broken weight. They can do bad things to ciruit boards so set them free. I have a KZ 2600 and have no problems with it. From what I'm hearing on this forum, it is likely Fatar as well. I like the Hammond SK1 and was pretty much sold on it until I found out about the keybed. Do they use weights enacased in plastic on those does anyone know? Thanks for the input.

[Matthiola]

Back in the nineties Fatar had a bad reputation. However, quality has improved. I believe Dave Weiser made a comment on that in another thread. Anyway, I never had issues with any keyboard action accept excessive wear on the ivory tops of my RD700NX. I've owned dozens of keyboards and imho Yamaha and Roland offer the best action. For example, the waterfall keyboard on the VR700 is incredible, if only Nord would use that in their organs.... FSX is still one of the best synth action. Korg used Yamaha actions in their Trinity/Tritons. Fatar is a good third and way above the cheap chinese boards that now flood the market.

[AnotherScott]

Right, I forgot that Korg has used some Yamaha keybeds, too. I think only during a period where Yamaha was a part-owner of Korg, though. I agree with you about the Rolands, though. As I said above, if I wanted to buy a clonewheel today just for its action, it would be a Roland.

 

(and yes, Dave Weiser has commented about the unreliability of some of the older actions, and how much better they are now.)

[Aidan]

For example, the waterfall keyboard on the VR700 is incredible, if only Nord would could use that in their organs....

 

Fixed

[Baldwin Funster]

The XK1 action is pretty good (fatar I believe). Its close to the '3c.

[TommyS]

The worst I ever had was my JD800. I was constanly replacing key guide bushings.Was a big reason I sold it. Loved how it sounded but enough was enough.

[whitenoise]

My 2 cents. I've owned several Nords and Kurzweils for the past 10 years. All had Fatar action. I had no issues even I used them intensively. But sometimes I see some complains from the Nord owners about keybed issues with new instruments (out of the box falure). I guess Fatar still have some room for quality control improvemnt. But you should be really unlucky to get a faulty keybed.

[InsaneDuane]

There are several incarnations of the Fatar Key-bed assemblies used in Kurzweil keyboards. The fully weighted key beds are the tp-10 series. These where used in the pc88, pc2x, k2500x and k2600x series. The pc88 and k2500x started with the tp10 MD. They then changed them to the MDF style (longer weights, keys slightly different). The MDF style held up better but the most significant difference was when they improved the plastic using ABS plastic. Fatar can't use lead in their products any more so they now make the MDR which has plastic covered steel vs lead. This type has taller weights then the MDF type so the bottom of the keys are cut out.

You could swap the old style keybed with the MDR but it may throw you velocity curves off.

I worked at Kurzweil as a tech and can be a great resource. Visit my website to contact me or use the email in this account if you have any Kurzweil specific repair issues.

 

Duane Garvin

DGAudio-repair.com

[ITGITC]

I worked at Kurzweil as a tech and can be a great resource. Visit my website to contact me or use the email in this account if you have any Kurzweil specific repair issues.

 

Duane Garvin

DGAudio-repair.com

 

Hi Duane and welcome to The Keyboard Corner!

 

You repaired a couple of boards in my K2000 over the years. Unfortunately, they were self-inflicted wounds. Nevertheless, it plays, although the display shows erroneous characters & the floppy drive no longer works.

 

Like I said - my bad.

 

I would send the display board to you, but Dave Weiser is here on the forum & he badly wants to sell me a shiny new PC3K so I'll shut up about my Nord.

 

I hope you will stick around. There are a good group of folks here... as well as some erroneous characters.

 

Tom Henry

Raleigh, NC

 

 

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

@Duane,

 

Welcome to the Keyboard Corner forum. Glad to hear from you again, you disappeared from sight (in the interwebz) for a while.

 

Jim

 

[InsaneDuane]

Thanks for the greetings! Yes, I dropped off the face of the earth for a while getting my life back in order (divorce) but I'm back now for the long haul and it feels good repairing Kurzweil instruments again.

[ITGITC]

 

 

[InsaneDuane]

My bad. Posting personal info in Introductions. If anyone's interested I can make a pdf with all the Kurzweil keyboard assembly info I have. Might make it easier to cross reference.

[VanDerGraaf]

Korg used Yamaha actions in their Trinity/Tritons.

 

That Yamaha keybed was pretty good IMO- nice feel and a good unweighted all-rounder.

Used in the Oasys 76 too I think.

It is very similar/identical to that used in the DX7 and other boards.

 

Only problem- black keys break with alarming regularity.

My Trinity Pro has 2 broken just now....it's "retired", so no rush to fix.

Oasys has 1 (happened first gig after replacing 2 other broken ones... )

 

I did wonder if it was me, but my tech guy said he has heard of them breaking easily, and has had many Korgs with this action in for repair with the same problem. Always the black keys.

 

Incidentally I tried the King Korg action in a store today and my god- what a piece of junk. Came home and played the Trinity and the difference was staggering. Ok, the Trinity was in a higher price bracket in its day, but putting out a $1000/£1000 board with the action the King Korg has is ludicrous.

 

Actions have been such a bone of contention in recent years in our built-down-to-a-cost-obsessed age. I agree with recent posts on, for example, the VR09 action- it may not turn out to be the best, but a good musician will make music on it regardless. I'd still contend, however, that his enjoyment and involvement may well still be lessened by the subpar keybed- compared to something superior.

 

For all you older guys, answer me this: Were synth actions better back in the day? I haven't been fortunate enough to play many old high-end synths. Or has the "crap factor" with actions always been there?

 

Actions I'd love to have the chance to try:

 

Sequential T8

CS-80

VAX-77.

 

Weighted actions are odd to me, as they often seem overly heavy. I'm not a pianist, but the last piano I played was a Bosendorfer with the extra bass notes under the black panel (Imperial Grand?)

The action on that thing was the best I have ever played, on any keyboard-related instrument. Wonderful, fast and supple. Yet far lighter than almost all the weighted actions I have used on DPs.

 

The same tech guy who must be rubbing his hands when I call him with my black key woes, once commented on my Alesis Fusion 8HD feeling somewhat like the Bosendorfer he used at the conservatoire he once taught at. That's a Fatar action isn't it? (though his memory may be tinged with....well, who knows what? He seems the type- and i know the type very well ).

 

I don't know- sorry, I've lost it after being up for 34 hours.

Apologies for the rambling- carry on, gentlemen.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

Weighted actions are odd to me, as they often seem overly heavy. I'm not a pianist, but the last piano I played was a Bosendorfer with the extra bass notes under the black panel (Imperial Grand?)

The action on that thing was the best I have ever played, on any keyboard-related instrument. Wonderful, fast and supple. Yet far lighter than almost all the weighted actions I have used on DPs.

That's the issue I have with so many "quality" DP actions... they are generally heavier feeling than the actual quality grands I've played. I thought the Kawai MP-10 action was unrealistically heavy... until I had the opportunity to play a Kawai (baby?) grand, and I see where they got it from. So as with many things, I guess for a lot of people, it's a matter of what you're used to.