Bill Heins Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Right now I'm using an old Mackie CR1604-VLZ for my keys and guitar and I really enjoy the sound I get with it in the recording path, but I'm thinking about updating to a Tascam DM series board. I love the possibilities with the Tascam and the DAW automation control is a definite plus but I'm afraid an all digital path will be too clean and sterile sounding for me. How would you go about putting some warmth into a system like this? Stay digital till mixing down to the two-track and then running through an external box? Add something between the board and the computer while tracking? I can't afford to buy and try too much Bill http://www.billheins.com/ Hail Vibrania! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoodyBluesKeys Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Start with the lowest-cost solution: Put the Mackie CR1604 that you already have somewhere in the chain. Try different places. See if that gets the results you want. If not - start looking for other solutions. If it does get the results - investment - $0 plus your time. Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Heins Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 Yeah, I've been thinking about how to keep the Mackie in the chain without muddying the waters. There's a definite difference between using a piece of analog gear and using software to emulate analog gear. Bill http://www.billheins.com/ Hail Vibrania! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Yeah, I've been thinking about how to keep the Mackie in the chain without muddying the waters. There's a definite difference between using a piece of analog gear and using software to emulate analog gear. Bill It´s easy ! I have several mixers for all my keys and modules,- Roland M160s, Rolls RM203, MAM KM122 and also a Mackie CR1604VLZ (in addition to a main 8-bus console). Use a AD/DA converter to integrate the stereo out of all your keys/modules into your DAW. Mackie balanced stereo main-out to balanced analogue ins of the converter,- AES/EBU, ADAT or SPDIF out of the converter to the DAWs audio cards digital in(s). Well, some here hated the "keyboards>compressors for live" thread here,- but I repeat myself again: I use a TC-Finalizer as a AD for the keys mixer and split this signal analogue and digital inside the TC. It allows using the analogue input but all the available outputs (analogue and digital) simultaneously and protects the signal from clipping before it runs to your DAW-hosts tracks. But you could do it w/ almost any good AD/DA and I also have a Nuendo 8 I/O (RME ADI 8 Pro)in addition. Difference of a 2-channel stereo AD/DA and a 8- or 16-channel-converter one would be,- you´d be able to connect the direct outs and group outs of the Mackie to the converter and in addition to the main-outs too,- means: Separate (better) AD-conversion for selected output channels. A max of 12 mono signals (8-direct outs & 4 group outs) plus a stereo out can be recorded seperately and simultaneously to your DAW and on separate tracks. For the ones not having a CR1604VLZ, there´s the option of a Onyx or other mixer offering 18 separate channels via Firewire. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoodyBluesKeys Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 In my studio, I run my PC3X (and sometimes PC3 and/or K2661) analog outputs into the DAW using an eMu 1820M. Output from the computer goes back out of the 1820M into my pair of JBL EON 15G2 as monitors (I know - studio monitors would be preferred, not in budget yet.) I actually prefer the sound this way rather than direct connection between the keyboard and the JBLs. I don't normally use any of the eMu effects that are built in. I have also connected the keyboards to a small Tapco mixer, then the analog out from that to the JBLs - also sounds better than direct connection (the XLR input of the JBL gives a better sound if used direct than either of the 1/4" TRS inputs - no real idea why). So, depending on what other equipment you already have, you might have to get D/A and A/D converters to put the Mackie in the signal chain. Still, I've found that experimenting with different configurations definitely can improve (or degrade) the sound that gets recorded. I also have a computer with the eMu 1212M, a notebook 1616M, and a couple of 0404 PCI; so I can usually find a way to hook stuff up if I want to test results. I kind of wish I'd hung on to a couple of items from my broadcasting days (especially the RCA 77DX mic). Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 First, why do you assume that you will need warmth,that it will somehow go missing? "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Heins Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 I don't know Bill, I get the feeling a purely digital path will be exact but sterile and dry. Give me that little bit of airiness...warmth...harmonic distortion...whatever that intangible quality is called. I find most recordings today sound flat and stale- they sound more like a computer than actual live musicians being recorded in a room. Bill http://www.billheins.com/ Hail Vibrania! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Schmeer Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 To add a bit of "warmth" to recording a lot of guys "including me" will place a tube compressor at the end of the signal chain, just before the recording device. Set to "Hardly compress at all" It tends to warm up the sound some. Now, this does introduce some distortion which many find um... "Musically pleasing" I get the feeling a purely digital path will be exact but sterile and dry. Give me that little bit of airiness...warmth...harmonic distortion...whatever that intangible quality is called. I find most recordings today sound flat and stale- they sound more like a computer than actual live musicians being recorded in a room. When talking about digital, it depends on the A/D - D/A converters used, and the sampling rates. When I record at 24 bit/96Khz, the results can be stunning, especially the cymbals in the drum tracks(live drums). However,By the time this gets bit reduced down to 16 Bit CD's or even worse mp3's most of that wonderful high end "airiness" and dynamic range is gone. -Karl MPCX, RD-800, Vsynth, Matrix 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Its usually best to put the analog chain (whatever it is) in front of the digital chain. Otherwise you have to convert digital back to analog and then back to digital again. You don't want to do that and if you do do it you want to lock the digital gear to one clock source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 I don't know Bill, I get the feeling a purely digital path will be exact but sterile and dry. Give me that little bit of airiness...warmth...harmonic distortion...whatever that intangible quality is called. I find most recordings today sound flat and stale- they sound more like a computer than actual live musicians being recorded in a room. Bill Well, here's where the voodoo comes into play, and sends everyone running for 'tube' solutions to 'warm up' their signals, and all of this shows a total disregard for both the history of gear and how/why equipment works. So let us assume for a moment that you love the sound of your current keyboards. And you have them plugged into a low priced mixer, yet you are still happy with the sound. Okay, take away the mixer for a moment, just because you seem to want to do that. The sound of digital to analog converters (and I'm including the associated circuitry, since some people like to present a part, and claim that this part, in any piece of gear, makes all pieces of gear with this part equal... and it does not.) and analog to digital converters seems to be at question. It is indeed possible to buy crappy A/Ds and D/As, and be really unhappy with the resulting sound. But so many professionals are recording entire bands and orchestras with the low budget Behringer ADA8000 (which sells for about $250+/-), which includes 8 A/Ds, 8 D/As, and 8 mic pres in one box, that I don't see how it would be possible that such a rig would damage the sound of a keyboard setup to any appreciable degree. Will it sound different than your current mixer? Its possible. After all, one piece of gear generally sounds different from another. But, if even a $250 solution is acceptable, you should be able to find a rig that suits your needs for a reasonable cost. (Even the RME gear which uses a software mixer might be really cool for your needs... you'd plug right into the one rack space converter, and do all of your volume adjusting on screen.) Personally, I am a bit of a sound snob, so I use some really pricey solutions for my setup... but I had a studio, and I made a living from it, so it was worth my while to have the better tools. Anyone who is familiar with analog recording going back to the 70s had to make an adjustment to record into digital. But it was no harder than any other adjustment that one makes when one, say, buys a new keyboard or a new car. Tube gear, as presented on the MI channel market place today, are mostly used to generate distortion. If I want distortion, that is fine. But I do not want distortion on everything all the time. The 'voodoo' that all it takes to make a good digital recording is to process the signal through an analog tube device is just that... 'voodoo'. One simply has to have tools that do not destroy the signal, and one then has to learn how to use those tools. ADDING circuitry into a signal path seldom helps it to maintain its accuracy. (seldom means pretty much never.) But it is always cooler to buy new gear than it is to learn how to use what we have. Do not blame the gear for the flatness or staleness of modern recording. It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. Tube distortion will not provide 'air'. It can provide 'warmth' or 'harmonic distortion'. But that is why I asked if you liked the sound of what you had to start with. If you assume that you'll somehow lose something in the conversion process, this should not happen with even very modestly priced gear. So if you like what you have, you should be okay. I'd also suggest that you get familiar with the digital medium before you spend a dime on any new equipment. First and foremost, you learn how to use the medium. But beyond that, you may find other lest costly solutions exist within your digital setup, perhaps saving you some money. "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Chimuelo Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 I use hardware analog synths and reverb w/ AES/EBU and Scope DSP cards. I route these into the DAW where select digital synths could be used along with my sampled instruments, and of course these cards are excellent mixers and effects also. I route via ADAT and AES/EBU, the synths come back out in realtime w/ excessive MIDI control and go through a hardware DBX compressor, then to stereo cabinets, a Rotary and Buss's to the FOH. I love hybrid set ups for stage, and until I hear a synth that actually can emulate analog, my rack mounted analogs ain't going anywhere. I find DSP effects are of a warmer quality, but Sonalksis has a real time Lo-Fi plug that is CPU intense but very effective. I also use Softube's Feedback plug on pads and leads. Who says feedback belongs to Guitars only..... Maybe there's a way to take outs from the Mackie into the DAW, and then back out gain into the Mackie..? I use to go direct into rack mount Crest when we didn't have an FOH w/ a nice console, and you can hear a difference. Mackie's might not have high spec'd mic pres, etc. But warming up a digital signal is a walk in the park with the VLZ's. Magnus C350 and a TV Dinner Tray Stand http://soundcloud.com/you/sets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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