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7ths or 9ths


Bluesape

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When doing bluesey progressions, I find myself using 9ths on the 4 and the 5 instead of the usual 7th most of the time, but I'll always use a 7th for the 1. Dunno why this is, just seems to have evolved as a habit that usually fits, unless the chord is arpeggiated. The quicker the tempo, the more likely I'll go to the 9th. The more ballad-like, the more I'll use the chord that's called for. If I'm doing inversions because I'm looking for higher octave notes in the chords, then I'm back using 7ths, but for a brisk shuffle I still find myself using 9ths higher up the neck.

 

Tonight I was asked why I do this, and didn't have a ready answer. Both types feel natural to me, and its not a comfort issue, but I somehow find 9ths a bit "dressier" for the 4 and 5. What idiosynracies have you discovered in your playing?

Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never!
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I don't play the same type chords in every song - for me it depends on the song, and its style. Deep Delta grooves are usually 7th chords, while an "uptown" Chicago tune, influenced as it is by jazz, might call for 9ths.

 

For each type of chord I've discovered shapes that let me play the top part of the chord, often dropping the root, assuming there's a bass player to pick that up. Now I can play 7ths or 9ths (as well as major, minor, diminished and augmented) al over the neck and can choose a register that complements what ever else is going on, or the mood of the song.

 

 

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9ths are fun. For brisk shuffles...sometimes I'll use 6th chords on the I, and 9ths on the IV and V. In other instances yet, I'll use 6ths in the form of:

 

(Key of A)

 

x / x x / x / x 5

7 / 9 9 / 7 / 9 5

6 / 8 8 / 6 / 8

7 / 9 9 / 7 / 9

0 / x x / x / x

x / x x / x / x

 

Then repeat it on say, the 10th fret D and the 12th fret E. It gives a faster feel version of what Duane Allman did on the Fillmore recording of "Stormy Monday".

"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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The chord that was used on The Allman Bros. version of Stormy Monday has always had me perplexed. It has a suspended 4th in it... I could never figure out the name of it. Here is how I play it...

 

(Key of A)

--8

--5

--5

--6

--X

 

What the heck chord is this?

 

I now return you to your regularly scheduled program...Sorry for the hijack.

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If someone asks why you play 9th's say that is because you like the sound hehe. I went on a 6th/13th craze a few years ago when I learned how to use them. I may not have always used them in appropriate places but it was new thing to me and breathed some fresh air into my playing.

 

Joe Pass had an interesting observation when he was talking about comping behind a piano player. He says that almost all players have certain harmonies that they tend to favor. He said the challenge was to listen for awile to a player till you know where they are going. He would play alot of 2 or 3 note chord fragmants with out defining the harmony till he figured out where the soloist was coming from harmonically.

 

I guess if you are trying to cover someone elses style then you should stick to the harmonies that they play. If you are trying to have your own voice, then you should play the chords as you want to hear them. Of course if you are backing a soloist and they ask you not to play certain things, you should respect their solo space to some degree.

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Chord Voicings (the arrangement of notes one plays for a given chord) in a given progression can be based on an arbitrary decision because it "sounds good" or on theory.

 

It is my opinion that arbitrary decisions to play a chord that sounds good is theoretical and falls under the umbrella of theory whether one knows it (or likes it, perhaps) or not.

 

Think about it, if you tune your guitar to certain fundamental pitches and in the EADGBE tone array, then you are roped into "theory land" by default

 

I will be addressing Bluesape's most thought provoking post momentarily

 

(NOTE:THE FORMATTING WHEN POSTING DOES NOT APPEAR AS SUCH WHEN PUBLISHED, SORRY)

 

Lets use a Blues in A For example

 

Here's An A Majpr Scale's Intervals(for analyzation purposes-NEVER EVER EVER play this scale in a blues !)

 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13

A B C# D E F# G# A B C# D E F#

v v v v v v v

Whole W Half W W W H

step Step

(2frets) (1 fret)

(W, herein)(H, herein)

Okay so those are the "natural" notes which fall within a Major Key

 

However, in a Major Blues, an A7 (dominant 7th) Chord is used. The 7th (G#) is really called a m"major 7th" and is lowered one fret(half step) to the note G instead. This lowering of one fret is making a note "flat" or a (b) symbol. So this interval is now called a flat seven or (b)7.

 

Look back at the scale above and notice that the 4th and 5th are "D' and "E" respectively

 

Now, Spell out their respective Major scales using the same

WWHWWWH formula FROM Both "D' and "E"

 

D MAJOR SCALE

Root 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 11th 12th 13th

D E F# G A B C# D E F# G A B

 

E MAJOR SCALE

Root 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 11th 12th 13th

E F# G# A B C# D E F# G# A B C#

 

OKAY, Let's Arrange All of the scales now IN LIGHT OF THE A MAJOR SCALE

 

Root 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 11th 12th 13th

A B C# D E F# G# A B C# D E F#

D E F# G A B C# D E F# G A B

E F# G# A B C# D E F# G# A B C#

 

NOW notice that the interval 9th of D is the note "E". It winds up Being the 5th interval in the MAIN MAJOR KEY of A

 

The 9th of E is an F#. It winds up being the 6th or 13th of the Key of A

 

 

The information within this post is both intellectual property and an original concept of Geoffrey Jacob Caputo and protected by a self ordained common law copyright and evidenced as such by the date and time of this post

 

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This information and concept within the four corners of this post (herein, post) may not be copied, printed , distributed in any permutation or derivation in any media, including but not limited to electronic transmission, without the express written consent of Geoffrey Jacob Caputo,(herein, author)

 

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The terms of these foregoing conditions shall be liberally construed

 

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Excellent observations everybody!

 

Hey Entrails, I'm with Fantastic Sound on that chord except that I used to play that tune and I don't remember seeing that chord. I just looped the same comping pattern over the tune basically or went off on my own direction after the first time through it. I was shown one time through it as the way the Allman's did it. I never really compared what I was shown to the record.

 

But I see that as maybe a kind of A major with a sharp 9 in it. Why the sharp 9 is doubled I don't have an explaination for.

 

This is probably a better explaination/understanding of it. I also could call it a C augmented. The progression ends with a V+ chord. If you're playing it in F then that last aug chord would be C+. As I'm remembering the tune as I was shown it-- in "A"-- I only remember a C minor, a B minor and a C# minor, and naturally the A7, D9 and E7 and E+.

 

Now to the point I wanted to make. In Ted Green's books (either Cbord Chemistry, or Modern Chord Progressions or maybe in both in different ways), he has a section on Blues progressions that is just amazing. He also has a section examining the way 13ths/6ths and 9ths go together.

 

See how the A13 goes to the D7#9:

 

A G C# F#

D F# C F

 

The bass is the root in both and it jumps up a forth. The rest of the voices descend a half step and the b7 becomes the third (sevenths always become thirds in cyle of 4th progressions) third becomes the 7th (and vice versa in cycle of 4th progs), and the 13th becomes the sharp 9 and is really better written in standard notation as a E#.

 

7#5 or 7b5 chords change to 9 (natural, # or b) in similarly interesting ways.

 

One of the things I used to do when stumbling into a "new" chord voicing was to turn it into part of a turn around riff. It sort helped me see the chord in a range of contexts outside of just the tune I found it in or came up with it for.

check out some comedy I've done:

http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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I guess if Gibson can try and copywrite a shape, then Caputo can try and copywrite basic music theory. That was a good laugh. How much royalty do we have to pay everytime we play a ninth chord, if it gets through the courts. I better copywrite my process to turn old guitar strings into gold bullion to be able to afford those tasty ninth chords.
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Hey Bluescape, it really isn't over your head. Just play them.

 

A 13

 

5-x-5-6-7-x

 

I finger it "1" on the root, 2 on the G on the fourth string, 3 on the C# and 4 on the F3.

 

D 7#9

 

x-5-4-5-6-x

 

I finger it 2,1,3,4 from d string up to b string.

 

The theory isn't tough at all, just hack through it often and you'll internalize it.

check out some comedy I've done:

http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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Originally posted by Gruupi:

I guess if Gibson can try and copywrite a shape, then Caputo can try and copywrite basic music theory. That was a good laugh. How much royalty do we have to pay everytime we play a ninth chord, if it gets through the courts. I better copywrite my process to turn old guitar strings into gold bullion to be able to afford those tasty ninth chords.

I'm working on copyrighting thoughts of playing 9th chords, right now

I have to be able to establish intent, though

 

As ridiculous as this seems (or is), it is a fact that if one does not reserve his/her rights, then they don't have those rights

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You can't reserve rights to intelectual property that is "common knowledge", can you? I guess if some court is duped by a good lawyer, but not in reality.

 

Everything in this thread is common knowledge or readily arrived at logically from the most basic rudimentary knowledge of music.

 

Even in discussion the Allmans version of Stormy Monday we are only talking about the chord progession and those are not copyrwritable anyway.

 

In as much as you can prove that some one plagerize your words or original ideas, the law theoretically is on your side with our without a disclaimer or declaration of rights. Instead of discouraging people from "stealing" what you percieve as your intelectual property, your just discouraging people from reading your contributions.

 

What thoughts on 9th chords of yours are you looking to copywrite?

check out some comedy I've done:

http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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Originally posted by Bluesape:

When doing bluesey progressions, I find myself using 9ths on the 4 and the 5 instead of the usual 7th most of the time, but I'll always use a 7th for the 1.

When you say 9th, are you talking about added 9ths (just the triad with a 9th) or are you talking about a 9th chord (maj/min/dom/... whatever) where a 7th note may be present?

 

Just curious. I'm just trying to understand what you all mean by a 9th. That can have two meanings for me.

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Uaually a ninth chord, and other extensions, imply the dominant 7th. The add 9 is more for the major ( I guess it could be minor also if you like that sound) without the 7th. A major ninth would with the major 7th included. This is what I have been led to believe as the common way to name these chords. Obviously you don't have to have all the chord tones in there to play it.
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Originally posted by KPB:

Originally posted by Bluesape:

When doing bluesey progressions, I find myself using 9ths on the 4 and the 5 instead of the usual 7th most of the time, but I'll always use a 7th for the 1.

When you say 9th, are you talking about added 9ths (just the triad with a 9th) or are you talking about a 9th chord (maj/min/dom/... whatever) where a 7th note may be present?

 

Just curious. I'm just trying to understand what you all mean by a 9th. That can have two meanings for me.

I mean a 9th chord in place of the 7th - so in A7, I'd use D9 and E9, etc.
Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never!
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Ok. Gotcha. Bluesape stated that he used the 9th on the 4th and fifth instead of the usual 7. I was wondering if he was replacing the 7th or just adding the 9th to the appropriate 7th chords?

 

And yes... I guess an add 9 is just over a major triad so "playing 9ths" over a progression strongly implies 9th chords.

 

Do I make any sense? Probably not. :-) I'm still just starting to remember this stuff.

 

I'm kind of back to square one poking around Ted Greene's book. Sigh... oh well.

 

Thanks Gruppi.

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In that tune, I use the full 9th. form with no root because of the keyboard and bass activity on it, I l hold the 9th. shape and go between the 9th. with #4 to the 7th. still with #4 it is a #4 slide quickly NOT a pull off a slide with the #4. and for the I chord I use the minor power chord again because of bass/keyboards.
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Originally posted by musicalhair:

You can't reserve rights to intelectual property that is "common knowledge", can you? I guess if some court is duped by a good lawyer, but not in reality.

Oh Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion, Brother Mushroom Cloud of Meditation was reserving rights on the particular explanation and tutorial array, not on the actual chord itself

 

Originally posted by musicalhair:

Everything in this thread is common knowledge or readily arrived at logically from the most basic rudimentary knowledge of music.

I can dig it Brother Broadsword. This is the proper perspective IMHO

 

Originally posted by musicalhair:

Even in discussion the Allmans version of Stormy Monday we are only talking about the chord progession and those are not copyrwritable anyway.

The point of my post and position was the explanation as to BOTH how AND why the 9th of a D and an E works over the Main Key of A in a Blues, and not the progression

 

Originally posted by musicalhair:

In as much as you can prove that some one plagerize your words or original ideas, the law theoretically is on your side with our without a disclaimer or declaration of rights. Instead of discouraging people from "stealing" what you percieve as your intelectual property, your just discouraging people from reading your contributions.

It is my opinion that my discouraging people in this foregoing matter is an assumption on your part and only a hypothetical and conjectural premise in regards to what I posted.

Now If you personally were discouraged from using the material which I posted, coupled w/the declaration; then I do apologize with all respect justly due.

 

However, the reservation does appear AFTER the proprietary info, so one wouldn't be discouraged in the intial reading of the post

 

I need to amend the contract to include that it is a violation

only if charged for, not freely exchanged. I did look for the contract i agreed to when I registered and could not find it.

As it stands, I do not believe i am in a Breach, from that perspective

 

However, from a Mob Rule perspective, I wil nowl respectfully refrain from reserving my basic human rights if it is true and/or evident that the result of my activity has directly caused any discouraging damage to a party.

 

Originally posted by musicalhair:

What thoughts on 9th chords of yours are you looking to copywrite?

Brother Broadsword, Brother Mushroom Cloud of Meditation is working on a Grand Master Plan w/in the psycho-cybernetic musical galaxy with the implementation of the implantable microchip, and destruction of all analog technology in favor of all digital.

 

This coupled w/ satellite and radar technology and exclusively MIDI interfaceable technology will make it possible to track the thoughts of those even thinking about playing 9th chords

 

In consideration of the foregoing, coupled with The cashless economy which will be replaced with an all digital economic system ; will make it possible to automatically deduct monies upon the though of any 9th chord in the World

 

The hardest part of all of this is to convert all to the Unitarian Jihad

 

Signed Under Apostolic Seal

 

(__I__)

 

Brother Mushroom Cloud of Meditation

Incarnate Pain In The @$$

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Originally posted by Bluesape:

Caputo - I want you to handle my next divorce. :D

The Key, whether married or not, is to convey ALL of your property (guitars, house, car, amps, etc . . ) in a Trust organization

 

I am developing somemethods on how to do this yourself, but for right now; You will have to consult an attorney on what to put in a revocable and what to put in an irrevocable trust

 

If you are financing the house or car, form a Limited Liability Corporation (LLC) and have the Trust org own it and then refinance through the LLC

(DO NOT TELL YOUR WIFE YOU ARE DOING THIS IF IT IS JUST YOUR NAME ON THE STUFF !!!!!)

 

Get a nominee, the trustee, or a friend to be an agent who then refinances the house/car through the LLC

At the county recorder for the house and DMV for the car, the nominee will conduct the affairs for your house and car, but you will retain management rights to the house/car.

This way, your name appears on none of this

 

Now, none of your property will be in your name

 

So how can a vindictive EX or property grubbin' cretin or STATANIST government agency take property from you if it is not yours?

 

Buy the Book, How To Be Invisible by JJ Luna at Borders books in the finance section

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Originally posted by fantasticsound:

G# C E C

 

E6? -- E G# (B) C

 

I may be the only rock guitar player who doesn't know Stormy Monday, so I don't know the context of this chord.

It's basically a "twelve bar blues" progression. In the key of A, this chord would replace the last D (or version of D).
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