Chip McDonald Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 John Poindexter heads the new Office of Information Awareness. John Poindexter: convicted of conspiracy, lying to Congress, defrauding the government, and destroying evidence in the Iran Contra scandal. His new office has come up with this great idea called the "Total Information Awareness System". In a nutshell, they're creating a huge cross referenced database ON THE CITIZENS OF THE U.S. that will combined info from a number of sources - [i]non governmental sources[/i] - and they want to capture the "informational signature" of everyone. How? Financial records, medical records, communication records, and travel records as well as new sources of information. "NEW SOURCES OF INFORMATION": DARPA's ""Human ID at a Distance" program - which utilizes face recognition, gait recognition (how you walk), and other visual signatures culled from OBSERVATION CAMERAS. A National Identification Card. So, everything you do will be integrated into one database: your bank records, credit card use, when you paid your water bill, how much it was, when you got a parking ticket and where, etc. The fun part is that anytime you happen to be near an video camera, they'll know that too... they'll know where you're driving, AND they'll know where you are - not just your car - in range of a surveillance camera. The really fun bit is, guess what - two of Poindexter's former companies HAPPEN TO BE CONTRACTED FOR THIS. Gee, doesn't this sound familiar? Hmm... can anyone say DICK CHENEY? Let me explain that what they're doing isn't science fiction, it's NOW - they used it at the last Super Bowl to capture the faces of everyone walking in the doors. The only difference is that they didn't have a database to match the identities to. Once they have that somewhere a computer will tick off where it last saw you, and there in your record (everyone will have one) tied to your National Identity, there will be a nice little story about your life. Of course, it's *just* to fight terrorism. Right? Except, here's the *little* problem with that: terrorists are not likely to register for a National Identity Card. They're also likely to disguise their face (until cameras are impossible to avoid... which, with certain advances about to happen, will be the case very soon), and use other means of avoiding Big Brother. So that's not a valid reason for this. It won't work that way. Here's another problem: profiling. Let's say you frequent certain nightclubs... and let's say you keep oddball hours, and you're seen on the streets at odd times... and you're noted for travelling around the region a bit. YOU'RE A MUSICIAN. To Homeland Security you're *suspicious*. Maybe you're really having meetings with Al Qaeda, maybe you're visiting cells in other states, and you're trying to hide your money expenditures on terrorist weapons. That's what the computer says you *could* be doing. [i]Or, that's what "*someone*" could say you're doing.[/i] Maybe nothing happens. Maybe Homeland Security give you a phone call. Maybe they talk to your boss. Maybe they come visit you at work. Maybe something happens.... and they come GET you at work. Maybe you can't explain to their satisfaction why their "fears" meet a profile of something they don't like.... Doesn't matter, because the new Domestic Security Enhancement Act says that since you *could* be a terrorist.. or really anything... they CAN HOLD YOU FOR AS LONG AS THEY LIKE. Among other things the Patriot Act allows now, and the new Domestic Security Enhancement Act allows. This administration is the most draconian thing to have happened to the U.S., they're changing our laws, and they're doing it for their own reasons. If you support it, you'd better be pretty certain that you trust *all* of these jokers - because this is going to be very hard to undo after the fact if it turns out you're wrong. Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYCDrew1642606430 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Chip, It takes more to cull, archive, capture and manage the data than we will ever have. Even today the USA is way behind in processing the electronic data it eavesdrop on. Sure, it's a shitty idea, but these are the steps govt's will have to take in order to maintain order. Think back to the early 30's, or even the 50's. We had nowhere near the amount of legislation we do today, but consider that earlier societies were not as complex. Everyone gets caught in a web like this. The goons the good guys and the politicians. In a few more short years, govt scrutiny will be even more pervasive than we can envision today, and we'll still adjust. ------- I've been given more than the usual once over on many an occasion returning to the USA. There was the time I was returning from Trinidad in 96 - with my *new* US passport. I had an overnight bag, and was almost 1st out the gate. They kept me for hours trying to get to the drugs. Then, earlier this year on my way back from somewhere, a smart ass customs officer asks me if i've ever visited any other states. I said yes. Apparently, she was waiting for clarification, because she said.. "WELL!!!???" and I said, "well WHAT??!!? and she said "WHAT OTHER STATES HAVE YOU BEEN TO???!!!?? I waited for 15 seconds, and then said "all of them" then waited for another 5 seconds and said... "oh sorry" I only layed over in Alaska - that don't count. She threw my book at me and waved me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by NYC:Drew: Everyone gets caught in a web like this. The goons the good guys and the politicians. In a few more short years, govt scrutiny will be even more pervasive than we can envision today, and we'll still adjust.[/quote]We all rushed out to drive on the wonderful "Information Superhighway"...we demanded it...we embraced it... ...now we have to live with it. But...we will adjust. For anyone that can't...or refuses to...there is still an untapped frontier up in the Yukon, where you can have unlimited privacy. :p miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 It's bad enough already. When I was queueing in line to get into LA a few months ago we were behind a smartly dressed guy with a guitar case ... the guy was black and had dreads. Guess what? out of all the 300+ people in that line he was the only one to get taken away for a search :mad: Maybe they don't have the processing right now to keep tabs on everyone but it's only a matter of time. "That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mats Olsson. Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Who wouldn't like to have a tracer installed in their fancy new car? - especially if insurance would cost less. I can see how many parents can be talked into chip-tagging their kids. Or big brother could easily take care of that by hiding it as "vaccination". Retinal scan codes in credit cards and passports is not that far away either. Welcome to the nightmare! /Mats http://www.lexam.net/peter/carnut/man.gif What do we want? Procrastination! When do we want it? Later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wow Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 The Gov. has been tracking us for years, its called a social security number(bar code). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brittanylips Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Rog: [b]It's bad enough already. When I was queueing in line to get into LA a few months ago we were behind a smartly dressed guy with a guitar case ... the guy was black and had dreads. Guess what? out of all the 300+ people in that line he was the only one to get taken away for a search :mad: Maybe they don't have the processing right now to keep tabs on everyone but it's only a matter of time.[/b][/quote]I was flying to LA with a friend of mine, a composer who has an olive complexion and dreadlocks. He too was "randomly" searched. Apparently, every single time he flies, he is "randomly" chosen to be completely searched! -Peace, Love, and Brittanylips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setter Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Rog: a smartly dressed guy with a guitar case ... the guy was black and had dreads. Guess what? out of all the 300+ people in that line he was the only one to get taken away for a search [/quote]Too obvious, anybody with a guitar case would be a suspect. setter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Well, you have to look at the pluses and minuses of this. Okay, data can be collected that might cause you to look suspicious. But say you have nothing to hide... Data corroborates with your story. This kind of thing helps avoid false arrests. Another thing to consider is "WHY"? To track your EVERY move (ala Big Brother in "1984", or The Village in "The Prisoner") is going to require an immense infrastructure, and it's going to be REALLY expensive. Going to all of this trouble JUST to have the ability to know what time every man, woman, and child, in North America takes a shit hardly justifies the effort. To top it off we have things like laws and constitutional rights that are there to protect us. It seems very bloated and inefficient to me. Another point is that the people who design, implement, and maintain such a system ALSO have to LIVE with it -as do their families and friends. It's one thing to eat crackers in someone elses bed, but in your own? Perhaps there are reasons and work-arounds for all of those issues. There IS something to be said about the whole BIG BROTHER thing. It's true; personal information has become a hot topic. To be honest, I'm more worried about companies like Microsoft than I am the government. In the end, perhaps there will be a Big Brother of sorts watching us. I don't know. But I don't know how close to George Orwell's vison it will be. Personally, I'm far more worried about viruses and the envronment... Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brittanylips Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 I understand that airlines have been asked to make exceptions to new carry-on regulations for orchestral musicians, identified as such, travelling w/ their instruments. Apparently, members of the NY Phil were less than pleased about the prospect of having to check one million dollar violins as luggage. -Peace, Love, and Brittanylips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmix Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Brittanylips: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Rog: [b]It's bad enough already. When I was queueing in line to get into LA a few months ago we were behind a smartly dressed guy with a guitar case ... the guy was black and had dreads. Guess what? out of all the 300+ people in that line he was the only one to get taken away for a search :mad: Maybe they don't have the processing right now to keep tabs on everyone but it's only a matter of time.[/b][/quote]I was flying to LA with a friend of mine, a composer who has an olive complexion and dreadlocks. He too was "randomly" searched. Apparently, every single time he flies, he is "randomly" chosen to be completely searched! -Peace, Love, and Brittanylips[/b][/quote]Yeah, the last few times I've flown I've been singled out as well. The problem with that is I'm a white, 6'2", blond with short hair. This profiling stuff sure is hassle. Wonder if I can sue someone . . . . . . . Rob Rob Hoffman http://www.robmixmusic.com Los Angeles, CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stranger Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b]...To be honest, I'm more worried about companies like Microsoft than I am the government. [/b][/quote]Bill Gates gave you the greatest empowerment tool in the history of mankind. You can communicate at an unprecedented level. He has been demonized. And do you know him? Has Bill Gates done anthing remotely close to what the government has? I'd be seriously worried about corporate power in the world, but Microsoft isn't one I would be worried about. Bill saved Apple. Bill and Steve ride again. Doesn't this tell you that they have some higher goal? Bill and Steve gave me, the common man the power to do what I'm doing right now. Broadcast. Communicate on a higher level than mankind ever has, and I did it for the price of a shitty used car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYCDrew1642606430 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 [quote]Yeah, the last few times I've flown I've been singled out as well. . . . . . Rob[/QB][/quote]This is not normal?????? I had three back to back Jet Blue ROUND trips last August, and four in January (all out of JFK). On some occasions I had luggage, on others none. On each and every single trip last August, the computer "picked" me for the detailed search. The last straw was, I was travelling back to NY from somewhere with a group (Maxi Priest, I think), while we were a performing group, we did NOT have group reservations. Each and every one of us (10) got picked by the computer. The same thing happened in January. Only this time, I kept the stubs. After the 4rd of 6 legs, I asked to speak to a supervisor, showed THEM (there were to, plus a FSA dude) the stubs from last year and this year...and it didn't change squat. The only thing was, I didn't have to do the last (stupid) check at the gate. Terrorism's goals are not restricted to causing loss of life. Those guys have wisened up. A hit in the wallet of Uncle Sam is the best way to bring us to our knees. Be prepared for apparently random acts that prompt lockdowns and evacuations etc - without any weapons or real threats being discovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [quote]John Poindexter heads the new Office of Information Awareness. John Poindexter: convicted of conspiracy, lying to Congress, defrauding the government, and destroying evidence in the Iran Contra scandal. [/quote]I find this very troubling. I had heard about his appointment and have been waiting for the outrage. Again, behold the Breathtaking arrogance of the Bush administration, which is not just a global phenomenon. Remember a couple of months ago when he tried to appoint Henry Kissinger to head the 9-11 investigation. I am awed that anyone can defend the moral fabric of a president who appoints convicted criminals/liars/conspirators to powerful goverment positions, and then feigns surprise when questioned about it. One more reason to say "shame on you". Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franknputer Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by the stranger: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b]...To be honest, I'm more worried about companies like Microsoft than I am the government. [/b][/quote]Bill Gates gave you the greatest empowerment tool in the history of mankind. You can communicate at an unprecedented level. He has been demonized. And do you know him? Has Bill Gates done anthing remotely close to what the government has? I'd be seriously worried about corporate power in the world, but Microsoft isn't one I would be worried about. Bill saved Apple. Bill and Steve ride again. Doesn't this tell you that they have some higher goal? Bill and Steve gave me, the common man the power to do what I'm doing right now. Broadcast. Communicate on a higher level than mankind ever has, and I did it for the price of a shitty used car.[/b][/quote]Boy, are you an idealist... Bill Gates didn't give us jack - he SOLD it to us, after he bought (or stole) it from somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by the stranger: [b]Bill Gates gave you the greatest empowerment tool in the history of mankind. You can communicate at an unprecedented level. He has been demonized. And do you know him? [/b][/quote]Yeah. Me and Bill go way back. He could never hold his liquor, and if you made him laugh while he was drinking it came out his nose... First of all, BILL didn't give me anything. I had to pay for it. Secondly, yes Bill had a HUGE role in the development of this machine I'm using. But the ability to communicate -the Internet-, that's not Bill or Steve's doing. That's the government that provided that one. Yes, the same government you seem to loath. Thirdly, I'm not taking shots at Microsoft. All I said was that I'm more concerned about large corporations LIKE Microsoft invading my privacy than I am the government, so relax... Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mars_dup1 Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by NYC:Drew: [b] There was the time I was returning from Trinidad in 96 - with my *new* US passport.[/b][/quote]Hey - what were you doing in Trinidad? Just curious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim P. Dyndale Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 I've said it before, but here goes... There's some scary shit going on at the heart of the American government! I'm *really* glad I'm not a U.S. citizen. I used to be kind of pro-U.S. (I've live in New Orleans for two years) Now I'm more and more anti-U.S. The Shrubbury administration isn't helping... -Joachim Dyndale -------------------- Einstein: The difference between genius and stupidity is: Genius has limits My Blog... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYCDrew1642606430 Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by mars: [b] [quote]Originally posted by NYC:Drew: [b] There was the time I was returning from Trinidad in 96 - with my *new* US passport.[/b][/quote]Hey - what were you doing in Trinidad? Just curious...[/b][/quote][b]Fugees and Supercat.[/b] FYI, I'm currently working with (among other acts) Wayne Wonder now...coming there soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rold Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Canada's gov't had such a database (minus the cameras), until a couple of years ago when it was discovered, followed by a public outcry and quickly dismantled (to the best of the public's knowledge anyway). Then there was (is?) the surveillance camera epidemic that hit BC in high-crime areas, sponsored by police, which became a national debate. Our Privacy Watchdog ordered them taken down, the police refused, there was an outcry in Parliament, and I'm still not sure whether or not the cameras are there. Didn't the camera thing happen in London, UK as well? I remember seeing a show where they were showing evidence of abuse of the technology - such as aiming and recording mundane things citizens were doing in their own apartments. Regardless, I have an issue with all of this. I do not commit any crimes (I don't even speed), and I really dislike the idea of being tracked or monitored in any way. What I do with my time is my business and my business only and it should stay that way. meh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by C.Me now or C.Me later: [b]The Gov. has been tracking us for years, its called a social security number(bar code).[/b][/quote]Well, they stepped it up, dude. I don't know about where you live, but Michigan driver's licenses all have magnetic strips on the back now. They claim it only contains your driving record info, but who's to say? I'm more concerned about the naivete of Super8, who's claim that those in charge have to put up with it too. I mean, if they're in charge, they needn't put up with anything they don't want to. I know it was only "fiction", but recall that in "1984" that the party members at the top were the only ones able to switch off the TV eye. AND get real meat! White(Winston Smith)fang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Joachim P. Dyndale: [b]I've said it before, but here goes... There's some scary shit going on at the heart of the American government! [/b][/quote][img]http://www.ydun2.dk/galleri/norman.jpg[/img] [i]"Dyndale!!!"[/i] Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wow Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 The ones in charge dont have to worry to much, they control the shit. Its when they get out of office that they must worry. For $50 bucks , I can have a "investigation" ran on you and know EVERYTHING about you. It's true and very sad. Now, if I(average joe) can get it done with just your name and State you live in, dont you think the government can get ANYTHING they want on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by whitefang: [b][QUOTE]They claim it only contains your driving record info, but who's to say? I'm more concerned about the naivete of Super8, who's claim that those in charge have to put up with it too. [/b][/quote]I should think it would be easy enough to find out what the blackstrip on your license says... Regarding those in charge having to live with what they create: Whether they are SUBJECT to it or not is up to debate. But -as I mentioned- they certainly have friends and relatives that would be. Certainly upcoming political candidates would have experienced it. I think we can all agree that we want to live in a secure nation, where the 'bad guy' gets caught or stopped before he does harm. We just don't want to live in a 'police state' where we are constantly monitored for anything remotely resembling a transgression. Example: I don't particularly like having my speed monitored by cop using a radar gun. But, when some wiseguy comes racing past me like it's the Autobahn, I certainly don't mind him getting pulled over. In fact, it pisses me off when they get away with it! The question ends up being how much is too much, and how much is not enough? Same with laws regulations for business and so on. A little 'eye in the sky' is not necessarily a BAD THING. It's when it's more interested in following you around and logging your day to day activities for dubious reasons that it has gone too far. Like I said, nobody wants to live in a police-state. I doubt many of our law makers want that either. It's an interesting topic... Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZsound Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 I am having a belly laugh.. Have any of you used Napster, KaZaa, etc. any file sharing at all? If so your whole hard drive was opened for their inspection. Got any credit cards, debit cards, check accounts, mortgages, etc.? Your whole life has been an open book to anyone that wants to look for decades. Oh, I forgot, all this came about in the last 15 months because of a republican president...(insert belly laugh). How silly. Mark G. "A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs "I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYCDrew1642606430 Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by GZsound: [b]... Oh, I forgot, all this came about in the last 15 months because of a republican president...(insert belly laugh). How silly.[/b][/quote]We are bemoaning the presence of big government. Not republician govt. Those of us with intellect recognise that our current condition has been years in the making, not months or weeks. Yes, Chip is transparently cynical of big govt, and probably this current administration (he says as much in this thread). The fact remains that governments (and just about any entity that wants to have a grasp of how to advance) more often than not, try to acquire more information, more data, try yo have more checks than balances, all of the time. At face view, Ashcrost, Bush and company are bringing a much harder line to our "constitutional rights". They're in part reacting to the times, and in part imprinting their personal beliefs and spin on how things should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stranger Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by ChristopherKemp: [b] [quote]Originally posted by the stranger: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b]...To be honest, I'm more worried about companies like Microsoft than I am the government. [/b][/quote]Bill Gates gave you the greatest empowerment tool in the history of mankind. You can communicate at an unprecedented level. He has been demonized. And do you know him? Has Bill Gates done anthing remotely close to what the government has? I'd be seriously worried about corporate power in the world, but Microsoft isn't one I would be worried about. Bill saved Apple. Bill and Steve ride again. Doesn't this tell you that they have some higher goal? Bill and Steve gave me, the common man the power to do what I'm doing right now. Broadcast. Communicate on a higher level than mankind ever has, and I did it for the price of a shitty used car.[/b][/quote]Boy, are you an idealist... Bill Gates didn't give us jack - he SOLD it to us, after he bought (or stole) it from somewhere else.[/b][/quote]OK...the Beatles didn't give us jack-they sold it to us, after they stole it from somewhere else. Everything is taken from somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nawor Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]John Poindexter heads the new Office of Information Awareness. John Poindexter: convicted of conspiracy, lying to Congress, defrauding the government, and destroying evidence in the Iran Contra scandal...[/b][/quote]Well, he's well qualified then! ;) "WARNING!" - this artificial fruit juice may contain traces of REAL FRUIT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Klopmeyer Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by setter: [b]Too obvious, anybody with a guitar case would be a suspect.[/b][/quote]As well they should...damned musicians. :p :D - Jeff Marketing Communications for MI/Pro Audio My solo music and stuff They Stole My Crayon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeon Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [quote][i]Super 8 said:[/i] [b]I think we can all agree that we want to live in a secure nation, where the 'bad guy' gets caught or stopped before he does harm. [/b][/quote]Speak for yourself. If someone has not done something (yet), they have no reason to be stopped. Anything less is not liberty and is not American. Oh yeah, I forgot...Ashcroft already has done that kind of thing...people stopped, imprisoned, with no charges, no access to counsel, no record given to the citizens of this nation. Yes...Amerikka is a great place to live. ALL HAIL THE HOMELAND! :thu: Go tell someone you love that you love them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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