no limits, or no mistakes?

[skipclone 1]

Here`s the question.

Do you appreciate hearing someone `go for it`, push their playing into interesting territory even if it means a few wrong notes, or does untidy playing turn you off?

[musicalhair]

Julian Bream said something along the lines that if he didn't make some kind of mistake then he wasn't really commiting to the moment or something along those lines.

 

A "flawless" performance that falls flat isn't flawless at all, just like there is a difference between an actor that memorized the part and an actor acting the part.

 

But there is a difference between "laying it out there for the audience" and sloppy and crappy playing. Wrong notes can be dealt with when improvising so how you handle them is key, but again that is not the same thing as sloppyness which I attriute to laziness or lack of attention to detail or medication.

 

When I was preparing for preformances in college, I was talking to my teacher about making mistakes or playing poorly and playing cautiously and she said that the audience knows if you're playing timid or reserved and knows if you're giving them the kind of playing you're capable of. She also felt that they wouldn't think of it in those terms but that if you were deeply in the moment of the music and playing it like you should and assuming you actually belonged in front of an audience, that they'd get it and be moved by the art if they were open to it. Otherwise they'd be bored or not understand the music and even if they didn't percieve "mistakes" for what they were they'd conclude the music was bad and the guitarist wasn't any good either.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Yeah! What he just said.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained;

whole more than the sum.

[Guitarzan]

if someone is screwing up because of sloppy playing ,then yeah it ticks me off. but if its improv and the guy is going for it the occasional boo boo isn't important. i get more ticked if someone was using too many effects or gain in a simple rock tune. or screwing up the rythym . when my fellow guitarist and i get together to jam and come up with stuff it can get funny sometimes when we venture out of the safety zone. usually we both end up laughing at the same time. i like having fun so it don't tick me unless its because of lack of discipline. i have played with people who have let alcohol turn them into real bad players and that isn't fun.

[ihategarybettman]

A so-called mistake can be a happy accident. Sometimes a mistake can make you look at something in a way you never thought of before.

 

Besides, if you play something "wrong" once, it's a mistake; if you repeat the mistake, it's a theme.

[batterypowered]

Well, I guess I'm opposite everyone else here... It's probably all the free jazz I listen to. :x My opinion is that there are no wrong notes, only wrong times to play them. It depends on what style you're playing at the time.

 

If you're jamming with some avante jazz cats, and you pick some way whacked-out chord, and really commit to it, and do something different and cool with it, I say kick-ass. Now, if you're in a 12-bar blues and you start noodling outside the scale too much.... that's going to sound like crap, and everyone will most likely hate you.

[Philip OKeefe]

As they used to say in The Hot Band (Emmylou's band) "Don't meek out". I'd rather hear you make an honest mistake - nice and loud - than always play it safe. Of course, there's a balancing act - "going for it" should not be used as an excuse for not practicing or learning your stuff... but like batterypowered alluded to, it's frequently stylistic dependent - jazzers are more likely to improvise things than classical musicians, but be that as it may, I'd rather hear someone play with passion and make the occasional mistake than to play with no life but be technically "correct".

[Funk Jazz]

you know, if the musician is committed to the idea of perfection, and does it with conviction, i'll buy it. segovia for instance.

 

but as for a live show, i'd rather see medeski, martin, and wood anyday. you never know what your going to get. it's loaded with mistakes, mis-cues, rythmic fluff, and it's almost always freaking beautiful. they are painting the whole picture, and not self obsessing.

 

i remember seeing eric johnson in '90 or '91, and it seemed like he would only play ten notes, then he was off twiddling knobs the whole damned show. i just wanted to hear him play, i didn't give a crap if he was playing a 1920 stella with two strings. i wanted music, not the perfect tone.

 

when i play, i embrace mistakes. if i only play what i know, i'll never know what i don't know.

 

read that twice

[antimatter]

Jimmy Page is the perfect example.

I remember going to see The Song remains the Same back when they used to run those midnight movies.

To me, that was Jimmy at his best. I didn't catch him live until the 80s. But in that movie he is often reaching, pushing, and sometimes missing notes or whatever.

To many guitarists, that would be 'sloppy' or bad technique. To others, well, it all seemed part of the genius. And when you strap the guitar down to your knees, and with Bonham pounding away, and Plant shattering glass, well...

 

Of course he is a rare example.

[DanG]

Mistakes are human, and to me thats the shiznit..

[ihategarybettman]

Exactly, DanG. One of the reasons why I hate so much of today's music is because it has that metronome-like "perfect" feel. I want to listen to music that breathes and has the human element in it BECAUSE it is imperfect.

[DanG]

Mistakes make me feel better, when i hear someone i respect dropping a clanger I whoop... and I salute train wrecks.. When we (whomever I'm playing with I laugh), its so cool, its about losing your ego - inhabitions, and really talking with the musicians that you are with and the old cliche goes 'You'll never die playing a wrong note'.

[skipclone 1]

Larry Coryell calls them `clams`.

[Dak Lander]

I feel like when a person is playing live, with heart and feel, there are going to be some clanks here and there and that adds to the tune. I'm kinda suspicious of the perfect live playing. There's something wrong with a person who never makes a mistake playing, or forgets a word here and there in a vocal once awhile.

To me that's all real. If you want it perfect live, don't listen live, listen to over dubbed studio stuff.

 

Every tune I play has clanks of some kind or another as do most of the folks I know.

[timrocker]

Isn't it kind of funny and entertaining to hear somebody hit a clam or miss something and then see them do that "roll eyes oops mate" kind of look? Or the classic duck and cringe look, usually followed by a sheepish "I meant to do that" kind of in-joke look. I think it really adds something, myself. I don't think a mistake here and there ever added up to a lousy show. I think a lousy show adds up to a lousy show. Knowwumsayin'?

[michael saulnier]

One of the potential "problems" with our current "fix it with ProTools" music industry is that the "clams" are never gonna make it on the recording.

 

Since someone brought up Led Zep... it's part of the "charm" to me of the first album that there are so many "little things" wrong...

 

It shows me that a "player" played it... not some guy chopping up bits on a computer.

 

The other side of this coin... is that people don't always need to have the ability to play their songs "perfectly" when recording... knowing that they can "fix it" later.

 

I personally find that my "all the way through without stopping, no matter if there's a few mistakes" takes almost always have more emotional content than some "perfect" version would.

 

guitplayer

[NMcGuitar]

One of my personal mottoes has always been:

"If you make a mistake, do it again, and do it louder."

 

By way of an explanation:

Obviously I agree with what many have said, that if it's just bad playing, then it's just bad playing. But I care a lot more about the "feel" of a performance than if every note is right. In fact I feel that such "imperfections" give the music character.

 

Also, "mistakes" will often help me to take things in a direction that I hadn't thought of before, and I think that is a good thing.

 

So, to answer the question (finally!), I'd have to say that I generally prefer a player to "go for it".

[Sylver]

Great topic.

 

I've had an opinion on this for a while. I was comparing myself to some "giants" of the musical world, realizing that most of them had an undefinable "something" that I only seemed to connect with once in a while.

 

Then, I was listening to one of these giants just going nuts on a solo, and heard several clunkers in one particularly long phrase and realized that he was "just" playing. He wasn't thinking, he was taking emotion, and flowing it out through his fingertips with wild abandon. Wild abandon.

 

That concept changed my playing and musicianship overnight.

 

'Course, maybe I just smoke too much pot.

[pauldil]

Hey Sylver, long time no see!

 

I studied jazz improv with a teacher who insisted that one should "never abandon an idea", meaning if you're going for something you hear/feel, go for it, don't take the safe way and wuss out at the last second. Although you may fall on your face 9 times out of ten, that tenth time might just be worth it!

 

Paul

[Guitar Geezer]

Hey SkipClone...go check this thread

New baritone guitar from Fender Japan...

We need a price quote...and translation

 

LynnG

[skipclone 1]

Originally posted by guitar geezer:

Hey SkipClone...go check this thread

New baritone guitar from Fender Japan...

We need a price quote...and translation

 

LynnG

noted and quoted...haven`t seen them on the shelves but I`ll keep an eye out.

[skipclone 1]

On the last compilation CD from various forum members, I had a song that I was thinking of contributing but the guitar solos were just that, all one take with some imperfections. It was a hard rocking guitar song but, knowing how good some of the other members were I chose a mellower, jazzy song instead. If I had posted this thread earlier I might have changed my mind. Oh well...