Feel free to ask Myles

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by iceberg:

Myles, I hear all this talk about V1 giving 80% of an amps tone and how important the V3 phase splitter needs to be matched, but I never hear or read about the V2 slot of an amp.

 

What is the V2 slot responcible for and how does the tube in that position effect the tone of an amp??

 

Thanks,

Kevin

Kevin,

 

When it comes to V2, it is amp dependant. As an example, V2 is THE most important Fender tube in tolex era amps if you use the VIBRATO channel, and this is it's first gain stage, and V1 is ONLY used in the Normal channel. In fact, a side tip here in Fender amps, is to pull V1 altogether if you do not use the NORMAL channel, as this will raise plate voltages a bit on V2.

 

In a Marshall amp is is part of the tone and gain stage, but the biggest impact is with V1 first.

 

In some amps, it is more of a current driver.

 

In Fender tweed amps like a Deluxe or Bassman, it is a big part of the tone and gain stage.

 

Some channel switchers use V1 for one channel and route the input to V2 or even another tube, for the first stage of a different channel.

 

The bottom line is, in "most" amps, V1 will yield the most result, but each amp has to be considered on it's own circuit topology.

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

I am now at the point where my wife says I cannot bring another amp into the house unless one goes out of the house.

Myles,

 

If you want to get another amp, no problem. I'll take one off of your hands, no questions asked. I don't even care which one it is, it will probably be better than what I've got.

 

Seriously though (just in case you didn't realize the above wasn't ), you could list one here.

 

Dave

Dave ....

 

I will keep that in mind if I get in a bind

 

A lot of my amps get loaned out, if you were here in Los Angeles, we could probably make you happy!

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by Kevin F:

Myles,

 

Have you heard of anyone useing a POD in the effects loop of a Marshall DSL JUST for the effects? (delays, reverbs, etc)

 

Is it worth it to try it or will it totally screw up the tone?

 

Kevin

Kevin,

 

This is totally worth it.

 

The new POD XT is one of the world's BIG bargains. "What", you say?

 

The XT has a lot of effects and stomp boxes, maybe something like 50 of them. Modeling an amp is one thing, with it's share of complications, but modeling a stomp box is a LOT easier. The circuits are known, and the controls and their effect has little magic or interaction.

 

The Shark Processor of the new POD XT and more than enough reserve horsepower, that the Line 6 folks were able to stuff just about every great stomp box ever used that was of any value, in the XT. Add the cost of a half a dozen of these effects, and do the math .... the XT is the killer effects rig of all time, even if you forget all it's other features, aspects, and abilities. The effects are also more editable and have a great user interface, than the originals.

 

You can take this one step further, and use one of the Line 6 pedal boards. Now you have volume pedal, wah or whatever pedal, and compact rig that is neat and tidy to boot.

 

Run it in the front end of the amp or the effects loop, it works great either way, and in the amp input, the POD level controls let you match levels nicer in many cases than the original effect itself, so you don't "squash" the front end as easily on high front end gain amps.

 

Frankly, if you want the most expressive pedal board rig around, that is reliable, not a rats nest of wiring and interconnects (and the noise problems associated with all that cable at time), then the "XT pedalboard" is less in cost and more in just about any other factor I can find.

 

Just stick the XT in preamp mode, then you do not have any amp coloration, make sure the AIR is off and follow the Line 6 manual on this area, and you are in business.

 

Great question, I should have written something on this subject long ago.

[Kevin F]

Thanks for the info. I think I am going to give it a try this weekend, thought I'd get some feedback before I spent a few hours screwing around with it. One more thing, I have the POD 2.0 and floorboard, will the 2.0 still work or is there a significant difference between it and the XT?

 

Thanks Myles,

 

Kevin

[Diabolical_Intent]

Hi Myles,

 

Ive read many of your Harmony Central posts and your website, and you seem to be THE authority on tubes. So i have a couple of questions for you, if i may...

 

I have been investigating the soldano HotMod, which appears to convert a 12ax7 to a 6k11 preamp tube (correct me if im wrong, this is what i have found on the net!). The 6k11 tube breaks up quicker and has an extra gain stage, which increased the amps gain, is this right?

 

I was wondering if you would be able to explain the difference between a 12ax7 and a 6k11. I would like to try putting a 6k11 in the V1 position of my guitar amp (a la HotMod).

 

Would i be right in thinking that i cant do a straight swap? Obviously there is going to be differences in the tubes, but i do not know much about tubes themselves so i need some guidance - Are the connection pins the same as those of a 12ax7 (in type and layout)? Or would i need some sort of adapter, and if so, are they available? What modification would be needed to the amp? Its hard to describe what i mean as im not a tube wizard. Is there a difference in voltage or current that needs to be accounted for between the two valves?

 

Basically, i would like more gain from my Marshall JCM800 2204, not a huge amount just a bit more for my metal playing. I heard that a HotMod would probably be the best as it requires no internal amp modding. However, they are out of production. So i want to do the same thing to my amp, hopefully still externally so the amp doesnt have to be modded, and could be instantly returned to stock if needed. Can a similar device to the hotmod be easily made? Or maybe i could have the amp slighlty modified to do this, but with a switch that could quickly bias the amp for a 12ax7 or a 6k11 (if that is the right tube)? Ideally, i would like to stay away from internally modding, but i have a good tech that would be able to do it with the right technical data. I have had a bad experience with an old amp i bought with modifications by its previous owner, it was a horrible job, with components glued onto the chassis and connected up. Unsurprisingly, the mod didnt even work!

 

Thanks for your time

[iceberg]

Originally posted by myles111:

Originally posted by iceberg:

Myles, I hear all this talk about V1 giving 80% of an amps tone and how important the V3 phase splitter needs to be matched, but I never hear or read about the V2 slot of an amp.

 

What is the V2 slot responcible for and how does the tube in that position effect the tone of an amp??

 

Thanks,

Kevin

Kevin,

 

When it comes to V2, it is amp dependant. As an example, V2 is THE most important Fender tube in tolex era amps if you use the VIBRATO channel, and this is it's first gain stage, and V1 is ONLY used in the Normal channel. In fact, a side tip here in Fender amps, is to pull V1 altogether if you do not use the NORMAL channel, as this will raise plate voltages a bit on V2.

 

In a Marshall amp is is part of the tone and gain stage, but the biggest impact is with V1 first.

 

In some amps, it is more of a current driver.

 

In Fender tweed amps like a Deluxe or Bassman, it is a big part of the tone and gain stage.

 

Some channel switchers use V1 for one channel and route the input to V2 or even another tube, for the first stage of a different channel.

 

The bottom line is, in "most" amps, V1 will yield the most result, but each amp has to be considered on it's own circuit topology.

Myles, Thanks for the reply. What is the V2 slot responcible for in my PV Classic 30?? I currently have a 12AX7 in V1 and a 12AT7 in V3.

 

How would my amp tone change/improve by putting a 12AT7 in the V2 slot?? How will is change my lead/gain channel??

 

Thanks,

Kevin

[garyrogue]

Again Myles, Thanks for the answer on the KT-66 loose bottle question. Gary

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by Kevin F:

Thanks for the info. I think I am going to give it a try this weekend, thought I'd get some feedback before I spent a few hours screwing around with it. One more thing, I have the POD 2.0 and floorboard, will the 2.0 still work or is there a significant difference between it and the XT?

 

Thanks Myles,

 

Kevin

Kevin,

 

Either the POD XT or 2.0 work great. The killer thing with the XT is the vast number of effects and the reverbs available. Even at full list of something like $579 for an XT (and everybody discounts), they are a steal for the effects alone.

 

The 2.0 is terrific too.

 

Post what you find, may in some sort of a post with a title like " Using a POD in my effects loop".

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by Diabolical_Intent:

Hi Myles,

 

Ive read many of your Harmony Central posts and your website, and you seem to be THE authority on tubes. So i have a couple of questions for you, if i may...

 

I have been investigating the soldano HotMod, which appears to convert a 12ax7 to a 6k11 preamp tube (correct me if im wrong, this is what i have found on the net!). The 6k11 tube breaks up quicker and has an extra gain stage, which increased the amps gain, is this right?

 

I was wondering if you would be able to explain the difference between a 12ax7 and a 6k11. I would like to try putting a 6k11 in the V1 position of my guitar amp (a la HotMod).

 

Would i be right in thinking that i cant do a straight swap? Obviously there is going to be differences in the tubes, but i do not know much about tubes themselves so i need some guidance - Are the connection pins the same as those of a 12ax7 (in type and layout)? Or would i need some sort of adapter, and if so, are they available? What modification would be needed to the amp? Its hard to describe what i mean as im not a tube wizard. Is there a difference in voltage or current that needs to be accounted for between the two valves?

 

Basically, i would like more gain from my Marshall JCM800 2204, not a huge amount just a bit more for my metal playing. I heard that a HotMod would probably be the best as it requires no internal amp modding. However, they are out of production. So i want to do the same thing to my amp, hopefully still externally so the amp doesnt have to be modded, and could be instantly returned to stock if needed. Can a similar device to the hotmod be easily made? Or maybe i could have the amp slighlty modified to do this, but with a switch that could quickly bias the amp for a 12ax7 or a 6k11 (if that is the right tube)? Ideally, i would like to stay away from internally modding, but i have a good tech that would be able to do it with the right technical data. I have had a bad experience with an old amp i bought with modifications by its previous owner, it was a horrible job, with components glued onto the chassis and connected up. Unsurprisingly, the mod didnt even work!

 

Thanks for your time

Diabolical_Intent ........

 

Thanks, and feel free to ask away. There are a lot of great folks over on HC, and I spend a lot of time there, but my 1st priority is here, as I am the moderator as well as a contributor.

 

On your HotMod, you are on the right track. I do not like these too much, but it is more from a personal taste aspect. With more gain, one generally looses frequency response and touch. It is sort of a try this .... Play a barre chord in a clean amp setting slowly ... hear all the notes (strings). In higher gain settings they loose definition and blend, and in many cases, it is like when you blend or mix all the colors on a palette .... you end up with a brown mush.

 

Turn the gain high enough, and you cannot even tell the difference between an A chord and C chord as an example.

 

In a brief nutshell, the 6K11 is really a triple triode rather than a dual triode. That is, there are three tubes in the bottle, unlike the two tubes in a 12AX7. This is one way of cascading gain stages, run one into the other.

 

I also dislike this tube, as it is hard to get, they are of spotty quality, and one of the reasons that compactrons as used in a few older Fender amps make those amps so hard to retube.

 

If I were going to build a similar mod, I would have used something like a 6267/EF86. These are a small pentode, with a gain of 5000 (versus 100 of a 12AX7). This is a much easier tube to get, and is used in high gain sections of some great amps such as Dr. Z., Bad Cat, Matchless, etc.

 

You cannot just stick a 6K11 in V1 of your amp, it needs to be modified.

 

No adaptors are available.

 

By the way, it is also a no-go on an EF86 in V1 of a 12AX7 front end amp.

 

If you want more Marshall gain, then the easy way is with the SAG MHG kit ( http://www.groovetubes.com/product.cfm?Product_ID=1737 ). There are not a lot of these in stock, but there are a few sets.

 

You can also have tubes hand picked for specific needs:

 

http://www.groovetubes.com/product.cfm?Product_ID=1773

 

If you want to explore that path, then email me direcly at GT or call me at GT, as these are done to very specific requirements, and we'd need to talk about a lot of other factors.

 

Don't mod your amp. If you don't like what the amps is doing, it is usually better in the long run to buy a different amp that meets your tastes. First try simple things like tube changes and bias adjustments.

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by iceberg:

Originally posted by myles111:

Originally posted by iceberg:

Myles, I hear all this talk about V1 giving 80% of an amps tone and how important the V3 phase splitter needs to be matched, but I never hear or read about the V2 slot of an amp.

 

What is the V2 slot responcible for and how does the tube in that position effect the tone of an amp??

 

Thanks,

Kevin

Kevin,

 

When it comes to V2, it is amp dependant. As an example, V2 is THE most important Fender tube in tolex era amps if you use the VIBRATO channel, and this is it's first gain stage, and V1 is ONLY used in the Normal channel. In fact, a side tip here in Fender amps, is to pull V1 altogether if you do not use the NORMAL channel, as this will raise plate voltages a bit on V2.

 

In a Marshall amp is is part of the tone and gain stage, but the biggest impact is with V1 first.

 

In some amps, it is more of a current driver.

 

In Fender tweed amps like a Deluxe or Bassman, it is a big part of the tone and gain stage.

 

Some channel switchers use V1 for one channel and route the input to V2 or even another tube, for the first stage of a different channel.

 

The bottom line is, in "most" amps, V1 will yield the most result, but each amp has to be considered on it's own circuit topology.

Myles, Thanks for the reply. What is the V2 slot responcible for in my PV Classic 30?? I currently have a 12AX7 in V1 and a 12AT7 in V3.

 

How would my amp tone change/improve by putting a 12AT7 in the V2 slot?? How will is change my lead/gain channel??

 

Thanks,

Kevin

Kevin,

 

Your V2 is mostly a tone current driver, and has less effect than V2 in many other amps. It does provide some gain, but save your money, and just use a good 12AX7 in V1 and see how that goes first.

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by garyrogue:

Again Myles, Thanks for the answer on the KT-66 loose bottle question. Gary

Gary,

 

You are more than welcome.

[lg64strat]

Originally posted by lg64strat:

[Q

 

Hey Myles, I hate to bug you, but did you miss my post the first time around? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!!

lg64strat...

 

Hi Myles,

I have a 1970 SF Fender Princeton Reverb. What speaker would you recommend for it. It has an

Eminence in it now. I have EH 6V6's and 12ax7's in it as well. It sounds really good now, but I was wondering if it could be better.

 

Also, What speakers would you recommend for a MusicMan 212-HD? Peavey Scorpions are in it now. I put those in about 10 years ago because they were cheap $, BUT it sounds like crap. This amp has Ruby's in it and has a SS preamp... I've never really been able to get a good lead sound from it, and the clean is just "ok" at best...

Thanks for your help!!!

Best regards...[/QB]

[Diabolical_Intent]

Myles,

 

Thanks for the reply, it was an interesting read, and the info that i was after. As a bit more background the amp i am using is a Marshall JCM800 2204 (1983) model. Im not after a hugh gain increase hear (nothing Nu-metal like!) and using various stompboxes with known dB of gain readings (primarily a vintage rat running at 9 o'clock distortion setting), i have calculated that i want about 12-15dB of more gain on top of the amp. I rarely get to crank it, even at gigs so i need more preamp gain!

 

Using the rat as the boost, the frequency response and tone still seem to be normal, and when run at a "clean" (as clean as it can get!) the pedal is outputing a very mild overdrive. So it seems to be just a case of driving the amp a little harder.

 

I guess that a HotMod of similar tube is going to give me lots more gain that i dont want or need, so they are out. Would you Hi Gain kit be able to achieve this level of gain? Or would i need to mod the circuit board *prays that the GT kit can do it* I really dont want to mod this beauty!

 

Thanks again,

 

Steve

 

Ps Diabolical Intent is the band name, it a bay area thrash/iron maiden style covers band. Thats the sound im aiming for from my amp, so it needs a touch more drive!!

[Diabolical_Intent]

Just a note, the amp is fully stock, except the tubes which are 3x Sovtek 12ax7s.

 

Would changing to the High Gain kit add more sustain too? That would be useful also

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by Diabolical_Intent:

Just a note, the amp is fully stock, except the tubes which are 3x Sovtek 12ax7s.

 

Would changing to the High Gain kit add more sustain too? That would be useful also

Steve .....

 

In response to this post, and your one above, the Sovteks are perhaps the worst tube you can have in your amp if they are 12AX7WA's. They have moderate gain and low current drive. Any tube is an improvement sonically.

 

You will have more sustain, as you would have more gain and amplification as the signal is decaying in regard to V1 and V2, but you would get more balance and sustain with the kit, as the kit has an MPI, that will also eliminate dead spots you might currently hear in some areas on your fretboard from an unbalanced output section. I would also want to know what power tubes you were using and who matched them originally, and if possible, check them for match and balance. If they were not tested for gas leakage, grid leakage, and low vacuum, I can pretty much guarantee that wherever you last set the bias, you are far from that value now .... and if the tubes were matched when new, they are probably way off from each other now.

 

If you are around here, I'd be happy to trace your phase inverter and output tubes for you free of charge.

[Diabolical_Intent]

Thanks again, myles!

 

The tubes are sovtek 12ax7 LPS, 00-04. Thats all they have on them. Unfortunatly im in the UK so id have to mail order one of your kits, unless you have a UK distributer? Ive always thought that they are weak tubes sonically, and ive wondered how my Gibson Explorer and this amp can sustain so badly, notes go dead very quickly.

 

The power tubes are Svetlana EL-34s. They were biased by a "tech" a while back. I use the word tech loosely as he was an electronics expert with limited guitar and amp knowledge, but very good at electronics. The whole amp needs a rebias i know that, and im having an FX loop put in soon, so i will get them done at the same time.

 

Thanks again,

 

Steve

[iceberg]

[/qb]

Kevin,

 

Your V2 is mostly a tone current driver, and has less effect than V2 in many other amps. It does provide some gain, but save your money, and just use a good 12AX7 in V1 and see how that goes first.[/QB]

 

lol....I already purchased 2 NOS tubes from Douglas. I put a JAN Philips 12AX7WA in V1 and a balanced JAN Philips 12AT7WC in V3.

 

I like the way the tone changed, but now I'm wondering about what to put in the V2 slot that might improve my tone. As of right now my V2 slot has the original Chinese 12AX7 that C-30 came with from the factory.

 

I was wondering how my amp would sound if I put another JAN Philips 12AT7WC in V2? What about a JAN Philips 5750 in V2??

 

Thanks,

Kevin

[Guitr777]

Four more and Myles hits a cool grand for this thread.

 

Yippee!

 

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by Diabolical_Intent:

Thanks again, myles!

 

The tubes are sovtek 12ax7 LPS, 00-04. Thats all they have on them. Unfortunatly im in the UK so id have to mail order one of your kits, unless you have a UK distributer? Ive always thought that they are weak tubes sonically, and ive wondered how my Gibson Explorer and this amp can sustain so badly, notes go dead very quickly.

 

The power tubes are Svetlana EL-34s. They were biased by a "tech" a while back. I use the word tech loosely as he was an electronics expert with limited guitar and amp knowledge, but very good at electronics. The whole amp needs a rebias i know that, and im having an FX loop put in soon, so i will get them done at the same time.

 

Thanks again,

 

Steve

Steve,

 

The main GT Europe distributor is in the UK (and there are a lot of GT folks all over Europe too), but he is:

 

Groove Tubes Europe c/o Guitar XS Ltd. - Doug Chandler or Tina Shapre

Thomas Point 12a Waterside

Upper Brents, Faversham, Kent, ME13 7AU

Kent, Email: Doug@guitarXS.com

Phone: +44 (0)1795 538877

Fax: +44 (0)1795 538877

 

He would have the LPS's (GT-12AX7R2), and all the other tubes and stuff too. I am not too fond of the R2's in most amps myself.

 

He would also have bias kits in stock.

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by iceberg:

[/qb]

Kevin,

 

Your V2 is mostly a tone current driver, and has less effect than V2 in many other amps. It does provide some gain, but save your money, and just use a good 12AX7 in V1 and see how that goes first.

 

lol....I already purchased 2 NOS tubes from Douglas. I put a JAN Philips 12AX7WA in V1 and a balanced JAN Philips 12AT7WC in V3.

 

I like the way the tone changed, but now I'm wondering about what to put in the V2 slot that might improve my tone. As of right now my V2 slot has the original Chinese 12AX7 that C-30 came with from the factory.

 

I was wondering how my amp would sound if I put another JAN Philips 12AT7WC in V2? What about a JAN Philips 5750 in V2??

 

Thanks,

Kevin[/QB]

 

Kevin,

 

I'd need to look at the stock Chinese tube to see what tooling version this was.

 

An AT7 in V2 will drop the gain but yield more clean headroom

 

A 5751 (not a 5750 ....) will have much the same effect as an AT7.

[milobender]

Hi Myles,

 

Is there a possibility you might be having an amp clinic in Denver?

[Franknputer]

Hey - this thread just cracked 1000 replies!

 

That's good eatin'! http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/party/torte.gif

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by milobender:

Hi Myles,

 

Is there a possibility you might be having an amp clinic in Denver?

milobender ....

 

Sorry, I don't think so, at least not in 2003, as I have too much going on here in So Cal, and cannot even find time to do the clinics here at the moment.

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by ChristopherKemp:

Hey - this thread just cracked 1000 replies!

 

That's good eatin'! http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/party/torte.gif

Christopher ....

 

So since you seem to be the one that broke 1000, when you get to L.A., I will have a free gift or two for you to take back home.

[milobender]

Hey... since I had the 1000th post do I get something too?? ;o)

[Franknputer]

Wow, that's mighty kind of ya, Myles!

 

If you're a beer drinker, we'll have to go tip a couple. (I don't drink alcohol anymore, but I have found some nice n/a brews that fill the bill!)

 

I'll be staying up around Burbank, but I'll most likely have a car to get around with.

 

A couple of guys are coming with me, to pay a visit to another station. One of them, Jonathan Burtner, used to be a recording engineer out that way. He's also a tube fan - he'd probably enjoy hanging out as well.

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by milobender:

Hey... since I had the 1000th post do I get something too?? ;o)

milobender ....

 

If you were the one that made this post hit 1000, then it's free stuff for you if you get to Los Angeles !

[myles_rose]

Originally posted by ChristopherKemp:

Wow, that's mighty kind of ya, Myles!

 

If you're a beer drinker, we'll have to go tip a couple. (I don't drink alcohol anymore, but I have found some nice n/a brews that fill the bill!)

 

I'll be staying up around Burbank, but I'll most likely have a car to get around with.

 

A couple of guys are coming with me, to pay a visit to another station. One of them, Jonathan Burtner, used to be a recording engineer out that way. He's also a tube fan - he'd probably enjoy hanging out as well.

Christopher,

 

Burbank is across the valley from me, not too far, but my wife's mother lives in Burbank, so our kids are there a lot.

 

We will set something up, and feel free to bring your friends, we can do a dinner or something too.

 

I am not a beer drinker (I gave up beer in 1968 when in a place called Can Tho, I was on a Marine base where we had a "Pizza" party, where the ONLY beverages were beer .... hot beer ... no water, and there were three beers .... Brew 102, Pabst Blue Ribbon, and one called Falstaff). That finished me off.

 

When on a sailboat though, I do drink rum, if it is GOOD rum, such as Planters.

[Franknputer]

Hey - no problem there, I hear ya about the beer. I drank my allotment awhile back - I'm not allowed any more. But dinner or coffee or whatever would be great too, and I'd love an excuse to drop by GT - so I'll be in touch soon.

[milobender]

Thanks Myles! I'm in Wyoming but maybe I'll make it out your way soon...

 

I'm the one who's been asking you questions about the TBR-1M last week. The guy ended up not wanting to sell as it "may be worth something someday". I found another one though, in Maine, and it will be on the way next week. I'm completely obsessed with the possibilities. It has Soveteks throughout at the moment and from what I've read I'll be changing them (although, to be fair I haven't heard it yet). What do you have in yours? Do you have any recomendations? Not haveing the benchmark of having heard one in stock condition I'd appreciate some ideas. My favorite clean tones are J. Garcia's in the early 70's and for the unclean Santana practically anytime (although I'm a 60's 70's guy Abraxas and all that. Thanks alot for the help you've already provided and I really appreciate your taking your time to share with all of us.

 

Thanks again

 

Brian

 

Originally posted by myles111:

Originally posted by milobender:

Hey... since I had the 1000th post do I get something too?? ;o)

milobender ....

 

If you were the one that made this post hit 1000, then it's free stuff for you if you get to Los Angeles !