Why don't songwriters just hire poets

[LiveMusic]

I don't understand something. I'm sure there are thousands of people who enjoy writing poetry as a hobby. Surely there are hundreds of them, maybe thousands, who write nice, rhyming, meaningful poetry that could easily be adapted to be lyrics. Why don't musicians or songwriters just hire a bunch of poets? Or scour the poetry publications? Have a composer put some music to it and you have a song. Why don't they do this?

[Tedster]

A good many do. There are lots of lyricists that write for "tunesmiths". One notable pair was Taupin/John...Bernie'd write the lyrics, poetry if you will, and send 'em to Elton. Worked fine for them.

 

And, if that's a viable scenario for you, go for it. Usually, it involves first having the lyrics, and writing a melody/chords around it (although sometimes a good poem can inspire a melody). For me, that's hard, as the melody and a phrase or two will come to mind, so to go with something already penned wouldn't fit my style. But if it fits yours, go for it! Remember, no rules...

[Lee Flier]

Well yeah, some songwriters do do that, but one problem is that a lot of poetry doesn't really lend itself well to pop music. Lyrics tend to be simpler than poetry and a lot of poets either don't like the limitations imposed by writing lyrics or they just plain can't write that way. That's not a put-down of either the poet or the lyricist, it's just that most of the time they are different art forms.

 

There are exceptions of course. Most of Bob Dylan's lyrics could be read as poetry. Jim Morrison wrote poetry as well as lyrics, though a lot of poets think he was a bad poet and some even think he was a bad lyricist. Lots of people think Rush's lyrics are poetry - me, I think they're too "pseudo-highbrow" to make good rock lyrics and not good enough to be poetry. But I'm sure somebody will try to set me straight on that.

 

--Lee

[fantasticsound]

I'd say about 90% of the great lyrics read very well without music. They are great poetry, however, as Lee pointed out, there are restrictions that tend to arise when mating a lyric to a melody for popular music, and many poets refuse to write within those restrictions. It's truly amazing when great music & great words come together in the same place at the same time.

[Skip_dup1]

In general, poets tend to aim for dense, imagistic

ideals. Fewer words, more interpretation. Many poets would balk at the idea of `saying` something; they prefer for the audience to look past the surface of the words. Professional lyricists don`t necessarily share that goal; they`re often writing for performers who want to get the message, if there is one, to as many people as possible. I started out writing poetry, but many of my acquaintances considered metered writing trite, the stuff of greeting cards. I disagreed, but my writing did lend itself well to music. Many poets who insist on strict poetic values in their music, with a few exceptions (Patty Smith, Jim Morrison, more recently Soul Coughing), tend to end up with a cult following at best.

 

[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: skip ]

[D. Gauss]

roses are red

violets be blue

songwriters need poets

like earthworms need shoes

 

some of the many examples of wonderful poetic lines that songwrtiers have come up with on their own without the aid of any stinking poets:

 

"push push,

in the bush"

 

"yummy, yummy yummy,

i've got love in my tummy"

 

"well everybody's heard about the bird,

don't you know that the bird is the word"

 

"boom boom boom,

let's go back to my room"

 

"i did it all for the nookie, the nookie

so you can take that cookie

and stick it up your..."

 

kinda like reading the bard ain't it?

 

 

-d. gauss

[Emperator]

Lyrics need music. Poetry does not.

A lyric is incomplete without music to give it full emotional impact. .A lyric should be easily understood and every word should sing.

You're looking for a universal truth in simple easily understood language. It's meaning should be direct.

A finished lyric is incomplete without a composer who will want to write a melody for it or music to inspire the words. It has to be singable. It has to be able to entertain an audience. When I write a lyric to perform I have to remove a lot of excess words to make it singable; as well as the choice of words that sing well.

Poetry is self-sufficient; it stands alone, complete. Poetry is designed to be read. It can be complex in language, even ambiguos in meaning.

[ricknbokker]

Tell ya what... you find me the poet, give me the money to hire him/her, and it's a done deal!

 

Seriously, I have a hard time writing lyrics all the time. Anyone wants to help out, that's fine with me. However, I've tried this twice before, (the poet thing) and both times it didn't work out. Why? Well, on both occasions, the poet was unwilling or unable to make concessions regarding meter and wordplay and such.

 

And so it goes...

Steve

(aside to d.gauss...LMFAO!!!

[Emperator]

I'll tell you one thing that really helped me. Was not to be to concerned about hard rhymes ie. see, me ,thee, we; go, show, dough. Although that of course is used a lot in lyrics or poetry. Instead think in terms of phonetics sounds ie. go could be used with a g type as well as variations on o sounds. And O sound can lead to and ah sound, etc. Using that you can find some lyrical way to say anything and that's freeing. I read that somewhere and it took a couple of years for it to sink in. One day it seemed to become true for me. You don't always want to rhyme sometimes it's about contrast. You don't have to rhyme line to line it can be internal, you can mix it up. The meaning is the most important thing,. Their really is a lot of room in how it's said. Learn to freely write your thoughts down on paper. Always keep a pen in your pocket and a piece of paper folded up to jot down your ideas. If you think of it write it down; because you'll forget it if you don't. Especially phrases. Sometimes I write lyrics first but I have a hard time associating them to a piece of music. Usually I'm inspired by the music to melodicize some phrase. Sometimes I get the melody and the phrase at once then figure out the chords; that's always strong. More usually I'm playing my guitar for enjoyment and find some theme and that inspires some emotional statement. When you catch a phrase try to think about what encapsulates that idea. That should you lead to a title. Titles are important they should help direct the whole story. Another method is to look for titles and write out your thoughts on the subject. When placing words to music it's important to catch the timing of a melody that fits the music. Usually I'm weeding excess words in the sentence because of to many syllables. It has to have good timing and be singable. Keep a dictionary and Thesaurus around to help you find more ways to say it.

Look for catch phrases. Especially anything that causes an emotional reaction.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by MisterMe:

Lyrics need music. Poetry does not.

A lyric is incomplete without music to give it full emotional impact.

 

Patently false. I don't deny Popmusic's contention that the music plus a beautiful poem is far more satisfying than the poetry read, but that doesn't mitigate the inherent beauty of the written lyrics.

 

Take the example of "Help" by the Beatles. While most of us would never perceive the power of these lyrics/poetry without hearing the music in our heads, that has no bearing on the fact that this lyric stands on it's own. Someone who never heard the Beatles or this song in particular could read the words and come away with a BETTER understanding of what it's about. It's been said John Lennon wrote this lyric to describe the feeling of being a Beatle in the midst of Beatlemania. I believe it was Paul McCartney who said it was more fun for the fans to have Beatles than it was to be one, during those heady days when they couldn't walk down a street in peace.

 

lyric by John Lennon

HELP! I need somebody. HELP! Not just anybody. HELP! You know I need someone. HELP!

 

When I was younger, so much younger than today.. I never needed anybody's help in any way.

 

But now those days are gone and I'm not so self assured. And now I find, i've changed my mind, and opened up the door.

 

 

.A lyric should be easily understood and every word should sing.

You're looking for a universal truth in simple easily understood language. It's meaning should be direct.

 

And poetry shouldn't? You have too narrow a definition of poetry.

 

A finished lyric is incomplete without a composer who will want to write a melody for it or music to inspire the words. It has to be singable.

 

Untrue. See above. (Although to qualify as a lyric, it has to be set to music. That doesn't mitigate it also being poetry.)

 

It has to be able to entertain an audience.

 

In your world poetry does not? That's sad.

 

When I write a lyric to perform I have to remove a lot of excess words to make it singable; as well as the choice of words that sing well.

 

As with music, some poetry conforms to specific rules, and some does not. Some one mentioned Haiku. Very rigid rules to qualify as a Haiku. Think Baroque or Classical music. (Classical, the sub-classification, as in not Romantic, Minimalist, etc. Not the all encompassing name for orchestral and chamber music.) Romantic and modern writers of this music break many rules that would have been unthinkable to J.S. Bach. You choose to take words out, rather than build the music around the complete thought. That's your choice. There are plenty of examples of people who work against that notion, placing music to fit the poetry as it is. (ie. Turn, Turn, Turn. It follows an existing English translation of a portion of Deuteronomy almost exactly as it was written. The translation certainly qualifies as poetry, and it was a great lyric, too!)

 

Poetry is self-sufficient; it stands alone, complete. Poetry is designed to be read. It can be complex in language, even ambiguos in meaning.

 

As can lyrics. As previously stated, the only prerequisite for a lyric is that it be words, set to music. Louie, Louie is a very popular song, but I think we'd agree it would have been lost had the writer chosen to read it as poetry without music. It, IMO, is NOT a great lyric OR great poetry. But it's fun to sing!

 

I stand by my original statement. 90% of truly great lyrics stand alone as poetry. This doesn't mean all great poetry works as a lyric.

 

[ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: fantasticsound ]

[dansouth]

Poetry is to lyrics as books are to screenplays. Books and poems are self-contained works of art. Lyrics and screenplays are an element of a final product. They have to work within the context of other complimentary elements. Coordination of these elements is the ultimate skill of the songwriter/producer or screenwriter/director.

[Kendrix]

Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

Poetry is to lyrics as books are to screenplays. Books and poems are self-contained works of art. Lyrics and screenplays are an element of a final product. They have to work within the context of other complimentary elements. Coordination of these elements is the ultimate skill of the songwriter/producer or screenwriter/director.

 

I agree with Dan - good analogy -well said.

In addition, the form of most poems is simply every different from song structures.

We all know the ABAB, ABABCB,ABABCAB structures that most good songs conform to.

Few poems do this. The length restriction on a song that this imposes will rule out the vast majority of poems.

 

ALso, when singing it can be very effective to spread out a word by singing it over several seconds. Sometimes this provides the necessary peak emotional event in the song. Peoms dont have quite the same ability to leverage this effect.

[Skip_dup1]

not sure I can agree on that last point, Kendrix.

An underappreciated part of poetry is that it`s mostly meant to be read out loud, by a speaker who can give inflection, impact and emotion to the words. Hearing a poem read by the writer, and someone reading his or her words, can be two different experiences. Or to cite an extreme example, take a great poem and have it read by an answering machine voice-it`ll probably sound pretty dang boring...

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Kendrix:

 

I agree with Dan - good analogy -well said.

In addition, the form of most poems is simply every different from song structures.

We all know the ABAB, ABABCB,ABABCAB structures that most good songs conform to.

Few poems do this. The length restriction on a song that this imposes will rule out the vast majority of poems.

 

Why? Because you've decided that poetry is about long, multi-stanza writing. It's not. Just because you're prejudiced doesn't make you correct. Poetry can be one line, 5 lines (Haiku), several stanzas, or pages and pages of text. The fact that modern, popular, musical poetry is condensed into digestible, approx. 3 min. segments because record companies and radio stations insist this is all that will sell well speaks to THEIR limitations, not poetry's. Other than nonsense lyrics, they are poetry or prose. Would you really argue that most lyrics follow the definition of prose? You're arguing that a tomato is not a tomato because all you eat are grape-tomatoes and a REAL tomato is bigger and rounder. They're both tomatoes! Most good lyrics ARE poetry as much as poems that are published primarily for reading/spoken recital.

 

Shel Silverstein had several hit songs. They don't seem to be very different from his books of poetry.

[dansouth]

If I may clarify my point, I agree that some lyrics are very poetic and could stand up on their own, just as some screenplays are readable and enjoyable on their own. My point was that the construction of a poem is less restricted. You can go wherever the thought takes you. In a song, you have to make sure that there is ultimately an agreement between the lyric and the music. In all likelihood, one or both will have to compromise somewhere during the writing of the song.

 

Also, a lyric is like a poem that is helped along by its accompanying music, kind of like a comedy show with a laugh track. I'll be you can name a hundred "good" songs with dopey lyrics - the music carries them along. A poem has to be solid in its own right or it won't affect the reader appropriately.

 

Writing a poem is like going on vacation by yourself. You have as much freedom as possible to go and do and see whatever you want. In fact, if you're not adventurous, your vacation will turn out to be rather dull.

 

Writing a lyric is like going on vacation with your wife or a good friend. You have to adapt the itinerary so that both people's needs and preferences are met. If you don't succeed in these compromises, your final outcome will not be desirable.

[Kendrix]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

 

Why? Because you've decided that poetry is about long, multi-stanza writing. It's not. Just because you're prejudiced doesn't make you correct. Poetry can be one line, 5 lines (Haiku), several stanzas, or pages and pages of text. The fact that modern, popular, musical poetry is condensed into digestible, approx. 3 min. segments because record companies and radio stations insist this is all that will sell well speaks to THEIR limitations, not poetry's. Other than nonsense lyrics, they are poetry or prose. Would you really argue that most lyrics follow the definition of prose? You're arguing that a tomato is not a tomato because all you eat are grape-tomatoes and a REAL tomato is bigger and rounder. They're both tomatoes! Most good lyrics ARE poetry as much as poems that are published primarily for reading/spoken recital.

 

Shel Silverstein had several hit songs. They don't seem to be very different from his books of poetry.

 

Hey Fantastic,

Ugggh.

Do you disagree with the statement I made? (versus your re-statement of what i said?)

I simply pointed out that most poetry does not conform to the structures good songwriting requires. Length is only one aspect of this.

I did not say that such poetry did not or could not exist. I did not say that all poetry is long multi stanza stuff. Nor did i say that some lyrics could not be considered poetry. Clearly they can be.

 

I just believe most poets (versus lyricists) work outside the limits these song structures impose.

Haiku is obviously very structured and short - but still fails to meet the needs of a good song.

 

If you feel these observations make me somehow "prejudiced" against some forms of poetry I respectfully disagree.

 

I do accept the comment from another poster that dwelling on one word can be part of a good poetry reading- However, I still feel that, in song form, with the dimensions of melody/prosody , you can leverage this beyond what spoken poetry can achieve and that this difference should be reflected in the writing.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by popmusic:

 

That's perfect! Great analogy.

 

Thanks!! Maybe I just need a vacation.

[Steve LeBlanc]

I guess it depends on the style and who your audience is, but I try to avoid fake rhymes at all costs...

 

Yeah, I don't disagree but I am a big Dr. Suess fan.

 

I don't avoid using any lyric if it feels good.

 

Tori Amos' lyrics have been inspiring me a bit lately...she's all over the place, sometimes she rhymes, sometimes not...sometimes she's direct...sometimes she uses metaphors...often all of the above in one song or phrase even.

 

I guess there's no rules really.

 

[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Steve LeBlanc ]

[dansouth]

Originally posted by d gauss:

some of the many examples of wonderful poetic lines that songwrtiers have come up with on their own without the aid of any stinking poets:

 

...

 

LOL!

 

Here's one more lyrical gem:

 

Shit!

Goddamn!

Get off your ass and jam!

 

On one hand, it's crude. On the other, it's catchy, instantly recognizable, and it features a strong natural rhythmic cadence. It's an example of a musical lyric.

 

Sting often writes songs based on the implied rhythm and melody in a title or line of lyric. This is a good example of cooperation between the words and the music. "Don't Stand So Close To Me", "Every Little Thing She Does Is Magic", "Message In A Bottle", "Walking on the Moon", "Every Breath You Take" - these are all excellent examples. The rhythm of these lines within the songs it exactly as you would pronounce them when speaking. Great technique!!

 

Good luck!!

 

("She Got The Goldmine, I Got The Shaft")

[Emperator]

American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: Of or relating to a category of poetic literature that is distinguished from the narrative and dramatic, is most representational of music in in its sound patterns and is generally characterized by subjectivity and sensuality. The words of a song.

[Skip_dup1]

I take that to be the definition of a lyric?

[Skip_dup1]

I have noticed that, in a lot of cases people spend lots of time and considerable fortunes studying music, and then try to write songs with lyrics and end up with a lot of lopsided songs that you can tap your foot to, just don`t try to make sense of them.

[Emperator]

Fantastic:Sound:

I didn't say lyrics which by definition are words to a song could not stand up by themselves as poetry. Good lyrics definitely can. As far as having lyrics not being able to use hard rhymes thoughtfully and effectively I didn't say that either. Some amount of use of contrast is all I'm talking about. The meaning is most important.

The words should be enhanced by the music or what's the point.

 

Remember when the days were long

And rolled beneath a deep blue sky

Didn't have a care in the world

With mommy and daddy standin' by

But "happily ever after" fails

And we've been poisoned by thse fairy tales

As lawyers dwell on small details

Since daddy had to fly

 

But I know a place where we can go

That's still untouched by men

We'll sit and watch the clouds roll by

And the tall grass waves in the wind

You can lay your head back on the ground

And let your hair fall all around me

Offer up your best defense

But this is the end

This is the end of the innocence

 

I'll take back the idea that poetry isn't entertainment. I read that in a book "Creative Lyric Writing" by Sheila Davis. I looked at it twice when I read it myself. Should have left it out.

Poetry isn't only something you have to read.

I love a good dramatic reading.

Ricknbokker said he had a hard time writing. If anyone wants to help out thats fine. Most of what I wrote was about some ways to write. Not the only way.

 

I have a library of over 700 cheat sheets of lyrics and chords. I have read them all without the music. It's great reading. They definitely have a whole other dimension when you play the chords.

Also.! I wouldn't be reading these posts if I didn't want something to learn.

[fantasticsound]

My uncle ordered popovers from the restaurant's bill of fare..

and when they were served he regarded them with a penetrating stare..

Then he spoke GREAT WORDS OF WISDOM as he sat there in his chair.

 

"To eat these things," said my uncle, "you must exercise great care..

You may eat down what is solid BUT.. you must spit out the air!"

 

And as you partake of life's bill of fare, that's darn good advise to follow..

Do a lot of spitting out the hot air.. and be careful what you swallow!

 

Theodore "Seuss" Geisel (at a commencement address)

 

Short, entertaining, Rhythmic and drawn to dramtic variation in the meter, and even manages to make a point.

 

The idea that some poetry is difficult to put to music is not lost on me. I simply see people attempting to box poetry in a separate classification as lyrics. By the dictionary definition proferred above, this is false. Why do so many people attempt to distance themselves from any form of art that is perceived to be of the upper class? Poetry is and has always been accessable to the masses. Why try to veil the fact that most GOOD lyrics are rote poetry, often altered to fit a musical passage? I'm sorry if I've been harsh in my replies. No personal attacks were intended. I feel like I'm speaking with "party" dancers, who haven't learned to dance, but are just moving around, so uncomfortable with the notion that they would be perceived as dancers rather than party-ers because partying is cool and real dancing is for women, sissies, etc. With few exceptions, most anything people do on a dance floor can be termed dancing. Who cares if you're not Robert Frost? John Lennon, Randy Newman, Elton John, and frankly, whomever is the lyricist for AC/DC are all successful poets who wrote and performed their poetry to music. Poetry isn't all pretty either!

 

I know many of you understand this, but your statements don't read of this understanding.

 

I reinforced the notion that the best musical poetry is bolstered, emotionally, by the music. I don't hold to the notion that the lyrics can't be incredibly moving on their own. This is the point of my rants. Sorry if I've offended.

[Skip_dup1]

I must have missed something...ya, sometimes the `it`s arty` attitude gets into it-like, anything that doesn`t involve a pop top is too pretentious. But poetic, as distinct from other forms of literature, and poetry per se, I would maintain, are not the same. It doesn`t necessarily have to do with the cultural associations. The two may intersect but they simply have different goals.

[michael saulnier]

Originally posted by popmusic:

 

BTW Neil -- no offense taken here! These forums would be boring if everyone agreed on things.

 

 

I agree!

 

Doh!!!

 

guitplayer

[Tedster]

Originally posted by guitplayer:

 

I agree!

 

Doh!!!

 

guitplayer

 

How can you possibly agree to that? It makes no sense whatsoever...

 

Tedster (being difficult)

[fantasticsound]

I agree, too!

 

So, naaauuuuggghhhh naaauuuuggghhhh, Ted!

 

Who said anything had to make sense here? You, of all people should understand that, Ted. You're not in Kansas anymore.. or, maybe you are!

 

(Did the preceeding statement make ANY sense?!?)

[Skip_dup1]

I heard once that if you can stand a potato chip on its edge it will freeze time...

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by skip:

I heard once that if you can stand a potato chip on its edge it will freeze time...

 

Or, If you're like Dick York, guesting on Twilight Zone, and happen to toss a quarter in the paper boy's cigar-box of change, and it lands upright, on it's edge, then you can hear people's thoughts!