Dealing with our Clapton issues

[Jimmy James]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Nice post Jimmie. A minor point here:

 

I believe if you can play fast you can play slow as well. But the opposite is not true.

 

I beg to differ, there are LOTS of people who can play fast who can't play slow. That is, they have no idea where to put the notes so that they convey any emotion or compositional ability. Note: I am NOT saying that the ability to play fast automatically negates the ability to play slow or have good phrasing or convey emotion, mm-kay? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I'm just refuting the statement above as it stands because that is another common misconception that gets thrown around.

 

--Lee

 

No need to state the obvious. What I said is basically true wheather you know where to put the notes or not. What you're talking about is taste and note selection. Yngwie can always slow down and work on a few BB Kings solos for you in a short amount of time. He has the ability to do that. But I really don't think that BB King is going to be able to play "Anguish and Fear" in perfect time in that same time frame. It doesn't make either guitarist any better than the other, it just simply proves my point.

 

 

 

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http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/144/oscar_jordan.html

[geoffk]

When Clapton copied Albert King's solo and put it in a song that means he's an innovator; when a hip hop producer does the same thing they are looked down on. Also the hip hop producer is paying money to the source...did clapton?

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

This message has been edited by SteveRB on 04-25-2001 at 09:21 PM

[KHAN]

>>>When Clapton copied Albert King's solo and put it in a song that means he's an innovator; when a hip hop producer does the same thing they are looked down on. Also the hip hop producer is paying money to the source...did clapton?

=============================================

 

Hip Hop, I thought we were talking about music. My bad... http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/contrib/blackeye/hihi.gif

[clockwirk]

All this talk of being the "judge" of music naturally leads me to some deeper questions. Is any kind of art capable of being judged against a standard, or is it always a subjective experience involving the performer and listener that can't be quantified? Is there a musical "absolute good" that all music has to conform to in some way in order to be called "good"? Is it considered "good" if it accurately conveys the feelings of the artist to the listener and is able to make them feel something? Can we actually judge someones artistic expression to be better than someone elses?

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/confused.gif Didn't mean to wax philosophic so much.

maybe this should be it's own thread.

[D. Gauss]

<>

 

aw you don't even want to go there my friend.... like it or not (and not seems to be where i guess you fall) but hip hop has a lot to offer (yes there is a ton of shit out there, but that goes for any style)... and this is coming from a skinny old white dude....

 

-d. gauss

[strat0124]

Funny point here, the original rappers, ie spoken word with rhythm with backing music was orignially done by white guys.......it was called square dancing callers. That goes back a couple hundred or more years. "SWING YOUR PARTNER!!!!!!" and "DOSEY DO"!!!!!! That's a fact....TFB.

[geoffk]

uh it goes back farther than that...to the Illiad, the Bible, and probably farther back to the beginning of language...rhyming makes it easier to remember things and provided entertainment.

[KHAN]

Posted by d gauss:

>>><>

 

aw you don't even want to go there my friend....

==============================

 

If there's no melody, it's not music...

[Ian Stewart Cairns]

Originally posted by KHAN:

Posted by d gauss:

 

If there's no melody, it's not music...

 

I would keep quiet about this around you drummer friends Khan. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

It could reasonably be argued that as soon as there is rhythm, there is melody. No two percussion hits are pitched exactly the same, right?

 

Ian

[clockwirk]

well then, anything is music. somebody speaking is music. random noises are music....

[KHAN]

Posted by Ian:

>>>I would keep quiet about this around you drummer friends Khan.

It could reasonably be argued that as soon as there is rhythm, there is melody.

==========================================

 

As soon as there is rhythm, there is rhythm.

 

As soon as there is melody, there is music...

 

KHAN (stirrin' the soup)

[Lee Flier]

Oh my GOD I actually agree with Ian! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Yeah, people have been rapping for thousands of years. If you are not into the electronic/drum machine flavor of rap (which most of the time I am not), check out the Last Poets. They're a "rap group" that have been around since the 60's and recorded their stuff with live percussion, mostly African style. VERY cool.

 

I definitely dig the "voice as percussion" thing too - using words and phrasing and rhymes like a percussion instrument.

 

I do like SOME modern hip hop, especially the older stuff like Public Enemy and NWA. I like Outkast too, they even use a lot of live instruments. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif But just like every other genre, once it turned into a big money machine it turned to shite.

 

--Lee

[Ian Stewart Cairns]

Originally posted by clockwirk:

well then, anything is music. somebody speaking is music. random noises are music....

 

 

Yeah, OK, if you like. This is the point John Cage was making with his infamous "4'33" (a piece which consists of nothing but "silence".)

 

African bush drumming is most certainly music. Drum solos are certainly music. I have heard poetry recited in a way which coincides with what I would call music.

 

So yeah, if you like it, it yours.

 

 

Ian

[clockwirk]

I actually think that pieces involving nothing but drums are music. But defining music goes beyond just a change in pitch. It involves melody, rhythm, harmony, construction, improvisation, influence, immitation, emotion, etc..

It's the mixture of human emotion and intellect.

Therefore, I don't believe that noises in nature (for example) are music, but the human immitation of nature IS music.

I've never heard of a cd with nothing but bird calls on it( at least one that wasn't intended to put you to sleep http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif )

[fantasticsound]

No need to state the obvious. What I said is basically true wheather you know where to put the notes or not. What you're talking about is taste and note selection. Yngwie can always slow down and work on a few BB Kings solos for you in a short amount of time. He has the ability to do that.

 

Whoa! You didn't listen to Lee. She (and Simon and I) DON'T believe that Yngwie can necessarily learn BB King. Steve Vai, who does slow playing some justice on Sisters, admits that he doesn't feel he has a command (at least some years ago) of bluesy playing. I happen to like his slow playing, but the man doesn't FEEL it enough to have mastered slow playing. Some people CANNOT do it. They practice so much to be consistant in their picking, that they can't break free of the pseudo-compression. (No dynamics in their picking.) It's not in them to be able to play like BB. because they can't change their habits. They can play the notes, they can play them slowly, and it sounds not unlike a sequencer with 0 velocity sensitivity.

 

The mastery of playing very often comes from what you leave out.

(For the extreme example of this, see the post on John Cage, above.)

 

Neil

[Jimmy James]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Whoa! You didn't listen to Lee. She (and Simon and I) DON'T believe that Yngwie can necessarily learn BB King. Steve Vai, who does slow playing some justice on Sisters, admits that he doesn't feel he has a command (at least some years ago) of bluesy playing. I happen to like his slow playing, but the man doesn't FEEL it enough to have mastered slow playing. Some people CANNOT do it. They practice so much to be consistant in their picking, that they can't break free of the pseudo-compression. (No dynamics in their picking.) It's not in them to be able to play like BB. because they can't change their habits. They can play the notes, they can play them slowly, and it sounds not unlike a sequencer with 0 velocity sensitivity.

 

The mastery of playing very often comes from what you leave out.

(For the extreme example of this, see the post on John Cage, above.)

 

Neil

 

You're missing my point. Various artists play what they want to express themselves. It can be fast or slow. There is indeed a great gift to playing a soulful solo with a lot of space. I believe Yngwie and Vai would be able to transcribe a BB King solo and play it in time. BB King's time! I understand that it would not be their preference to do so but they could do it. It is not beyond their technical ability. Sure, it wouldn't sound anywhere near as great as BB King doing it. It could sound horrible, but the point is they'd be able to slow down enough to do it. It is not beyond their skill level to play one of his solos in time. Playing it with soul is a whole other matter, but we're talking about speed. Conversely, I really don't see BB King playing "The Attitude Song." It just isn't what he's about.

 

I'm a Vai fan from way back. I have a video tape of him with Alcatraz "Live in Japan." He's incredible. His Blues playing, though fun to listen to, has a lot to be desired. He admits this. But remember he first became famous as a transcriber before he became famous as a guitar player.

 

 

 

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[lrbreez]

I've always loved Clapton's playing. I've always been amazed at what Eric can do with a pentatonic scale (even more so Duane Allman).

Buddy

[Tedster]

(New Yawk accent)

 

Yo! Well, whatever...

 

Clapton's touring this summer. I'm goinda see him.

 

You wanna make somethin' of it?

[strat0124]

He can rip, and every once in a while he puts out some lame radio friendly pop, but his skills as a bluesman have never been in question by other noteworthy guitarists, only by his audience. I don't think he loses sleep worrying whether Johnny Shredder considers him Rock Royalty or not. He's old enough to realize what the real deal is.

[Sir Bob]

Originally posted by Ian Stewart Cairns:

....(I)gnore the fact that his soloing is sterile, "box-based", derivative and uninspiring, ......(I)gnore the fact that he can't bend in tune....

 

 

This has been an entertaining thread. I suppose you can pan the lead to Sunshire of Your Love as an out-of-tune rip of Blue Moon. But I think it's killer stuff.

 

What I think Clapton has going for him is an intuitiveness about the balance between tension and release. People have written books about Bach's works trying to show this balance in his compositions. Of course some people think Bach is sterile too.

 

At any rate, I just don't get Jeff Beck!!!!

[nrg music]

Originally posted by Sir Bob:

People have written books about Bach's works trying to show this balance in his compositions. Of course some people think Bach is sterile too.

 

At any rate, I just don't get Jeff Beck!!!!

 

Sir Bob

Just to say that was nicely put!! I don't get him either! The only track he ever dd that I thought was worth diddly squat was 'People Get Ready' with Rod Stewart....... Other than that I never could understand what all the fuss was about!!

 

Simon http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by nrg music:

[bProbably a much more apt successor would be the likes of Gary Moore or Brina Robertson?[/b]

 

I hate even touching the "soul" debate in music, but I think Moore was much more soulful and interesting when he was heavy metal. The solo to "Empty Rooms" - the original version - was great, as was some Beck-ish instrumental things he did. For that matter even the Colloseum fusion stuff.... I prefer his playing on a Strat to the Les Paul as well... Oh well.

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[gizmohis.com]

OK, I admit I haven't read every post in this thread. I found it late and here's my $.02.

 

You had to have been there in the late '60's to appreciate Clapton. I went from The Ventures to the Beatles (sorry... wasn't a big Stones fan then) and then along came what I call the "Big Four" - Clapton, Page, Beck and Hendrix. Weird, isn't it. Three English guys and an American who had to go to England to get a break. To me Clapton had the classiest touch and sound, not to mention his vibrato, that I had ever heard. Go listen to the Jam at the end of Abbey Road. (The Beatles for you youngsters).

When Clapton's solos come along it was absolutely electrifying to me. "While My Guitar Gently Weeps"? Whew. Think about what there was in rock guitar at the time. Page was just beginning to carve out his niche in rock history w/ Led Zep and Beck had not really found the voice he later found w/ his "fusion" records. Hendrix was the only really fully formed rock guitarist out there. (I'll probably catch holy hell for some of these statements. Ah, well.).

 

So for me the question of whether or not Eric deserves to put out the occasional "commercial" record - Oh my God! An album designed to get played on popular radio in an attempt to make some MONEY! - is absurd. Dizzy Gillespie once told his producer that he wanted to make a disco album. His producer cried "But Diz! You're way too important to record that crap! You've made jazz history!" Diz replied "I'm tired of making history. I wanna make some money".

George Benson gets the same trashing from many jazz guitar players. Is Benson any less of a player for having had a bunch of pop hits? I promise you the guy can still play. So can Eric...

 

To me Eric Clapton is as important to rock guitar playing as B.B. King. Did anyone begrudge B.B. his hit w/ "The Thrill Is Gone"?

Was his playing as powerful as "Live At The Regal"? Who cares! All us B.B. fans were just happy to see him get some popular recognition.

Do people trash B.B. King around here? Not that I've seen.

 

O.K. I'm done. I guess you can probably tell I was one of those guys who believed when the word got out that "Clapton Is God". I know he's not. I know plenty of guys who play the guitar better. Shit, I grew up hearing Roy Buchanan and Danny Gatton in local bars. But I still remember the kick I got when I heard "I Feel Free" for the first time and at the end of the solo you can hear the pickup switch click for the final burning lick.

[kudyba]

You guys ever see that performance with Clapton sitting in on the Plastic Ono Band (w/ John Lennon) in Canada? Oh my God did that make me want to puke. What the hell was that yapper doing under the blanket?

[Tedster]

If I did see the Clapton/Lennon performance, it's been years. I'm not quite sure what you mean "under the blanket"...but that was an era where John and Yoko were into the "bagism" thing...everyone wear a bag so you can't see who they are, and don't judge them on anything but their inner merits rather than outward appearance. Weird, but an interesting concept.

 

Gizmo, I'm with you. The point of putting it in time perspective is one I mentioned earlier in the thread, and a few others called upon it as well.

[michael saulnier]

Originally posted by kudyba:

You guys ever see that performance with Clapton sitting in on the Plastic Ono Band (w/ John Lennon) in Canada? Oh my God did that make me want to puke. What the hell was that yapper doing under the blanket?

 

Kudyba... What? You didn't like Yoko's "artistic statement"?

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

guitplayer

[kudyba]

Originally posted by Tedster:

If I did see the Clapton/Lennon performance, it's been years. I'm not quite sure what you mean "under the blanket"...but that was an era where John and Yoko were into the "bagism" thing...everyone wear a bag so you can't see who they are, and don't judge them on anything but their inner merits rather than outward appearance. Weird, but an interesting concept.

 

It was the Toronto Rock 'n' Roll Revival in 1969. Here's a little interview with the bagged one her self. Here's a quote from it:

Terry Ott : Did you plan your improvisational performance at all?

 

Terry Ott's comment: [After the band's main set, which included the world premiere of John's song about heroin withdrawl, Cold Turkey, Yoko retired to a tent-like bag on the stage where she proceeded to wail, moan, screech and scream for close to 20 minutes for a song entitled John, John. Let's Hope For Peace, while Clapton and Lennon provided exremely loud guitar feedback.]

 

Yoko Ono: I did an improvisation. Of course John knew the songs that they did backwards and forwards -- they were very good -- and I did my songs in a bag. I was never exposed to a huge audience like that. I was dazed.

Oh and in that concert, Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley played sets but I don't know if it was the crappy sound, drugs or what but they both played really crappy!

 

Out of all places, I saw the concert on late night programming in France over Christmas on their Arte channel--kind of like our Bravo...

[Tedster]

>>>Out of all places, I saw the concert on late night programming in France over Christmas on their Arte channel--kind of like our Bravo...

 

Only the movies are all in English with French subtitles? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[dansouth]

Bass player no. 1: Jaco is the greatest - EVER!

Bass player no. 2: Jaco was a wanker! I never liked him!

 

Keyboard player no. 1: Emerson RULES!

Keyboard player no. 2: Emerson is totally insignificant!

 

Guitar player no. 1: Y'know, I'm not sure whether I should admit this, but I think I'm kinda starting to like Clapton, again. A little. That is, if you don't think he's too uncool.

Guitar player no. 2: Well, I don't know. I was starting to think he was majorly uncool until you said THAT. Now I might have to consider liking him again.

 

If you check out the bass and keyboard forums, you're not going to see any "Resolving our Jaco issues" or "Resolving out Emerson issues" threads. You're not going to see bass players or drummers sitting around wasting time discussing whether it's still cool to like Rush. If you like an artist, great. If you don't care for them, that's fine, too.

 

Why is it that guitarists feel compelled to choose their heros only after long consultations with other guitarists? What does it matter what anyone else thinks? Why can't you guys choose a hero without first checking to see who's looking? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif