"And You And I" analysis/questions

[Immo]

I was listening and enjoying Yes's song "And You and I" and had a few questions about Rick's use of the mini and a vocal part in the middle.

 

At about 1:30 in the song there's a minimoog lead but part way through it sounds like the note in a different octave gets stronger. Did I just miss it all along, or do you think he turned up the volume on an oscilator that was an octave up in the middle of the solo. Something similar happens at 6:20 in the song, although that time it may have been with a lower octave.

 

In the middle of the song where Anderson sings and there's that weird quasi vocal sound in the background at about 2:54. Is that the sound of them running his background vocals through a leslie (because once or twice I suspected maybe it's just an organ). Or is that just a vocoder or some weird chorus effect?

 

Finally at about 7:46 there's another minimoog solo, but the filters sound strange and ever so slightly out of sync. Also it sounds like two minis running in stereo one in each channel. Can anyone confirm?

 

Thanks

[synthizen2]

Well, can't specifically answer any of these questions as I don't have the album/CD in front of me, but I just want to say I really admire Rick's Mini and Mellotron work on that song/album - you've brought back a lot of memories.

 

Also, FYI, at Voltkitchen Synths where I am a co-developer, I think we've nailed that Wakeman Mini sound pretty well in our MinimogueVA emulation announced a few days ago here at KC (the preset is called "Wakeman's Journey").

[Prague]

I'm not sure what you mean about an OSC getting stronger. There is kind of a band-pass outcome with that Mini solo. I've always thought it was somewhat linked to the high frequency of the OSC. I did post a way to get near that sound on an ION in your previous thread. Don't know if you followed up on that.

 

Backup vocals did go through a Leslie.

 

That last solo always sounded like Echo-plex doubling to me, with the slight delay. I'm not sure about the sync thing.

[Tonysounds]

Having read about their studio exploits, CLOSE TO THE EDGE, the album, is really responsible for Bill Bruford leaving the band. To recount (non-verbatim) what I've read from different sources, there were strips of 2" tape hanging everywhere in the studio. The band never wrote anything down, and typically, couldn't remember the parts they had written the day before. And since their arrangements were typically call and response during this period, if one person forgot their part, the next person's parts either wouldn't work, or they couldn't remember it. What you're likely noticing, in terms of the synth parts, is a "mismatch" during the editing process; they probably spliced two different takes together, and since the Mini had no memory (neither did the mixing console), you probably notice the jump in level. This same explanation could hold true for the out of sync thing you notice as well.

 

This method of mayhem...er...songwriting/arrangement proved too chaotic to Bruford, and he left to join a more "orderly" unit: King Crimson.

T

[Joe P]

This is kind of off-topic, but one of the best concerts I ever saw was "Anderson,Bruford,Wakeman & Howe" at the Garden State Arts Center. Bruford played and electronic kit, and the bass player was some guy who had extensions on his fingers. He was a great player. I saw the same dude (with the finger extensions) at the same venue maybe a year later playing with Bob Dylan. At that show I don't think I understood a single thing Dylan said all night.

Regards,

Joe

[Immo]

Originally posted by Prague:

I'm not sure what you mean about an OSC getting stronger. There is kind of a band-pass outcome with that Mini solo. I've always thought it was somewhat linked to the high frequency of the OSC. I did post a way to get near that sound on an ION in your previous thread. Don't know if you followed up on that.

 

Backup vocals did go through a Leslie.

 

That last solo always sounded like Echo-plex doubling to me, with the slight delay. I'm not sure about the sync thing.

Yeah I did follow up on it. I thought it was a good base to work with. I was just thrown that it seemed the volume of osc in certain octaves seemed to change. Liked there seemed like a jump in the volume of the one octave up oscillator. It could also just be my inexperience with tweaking the frequency of the filter.

 

That last solo could be a delay, I have to give it another listen now.

[Prague]

Originally posted by Joe P:

This is kind of off-topic, but one of the best concerts I ever saw was "Anderson,Bruford,Wakeman & Howe" at the Garden State Arts Center. Bruford played and electronic kit, and the bass player was some guy who had extensions on his fingers. He was a great player.

OT response: Tony Levin!

[Joe P]

Thanks Prague, that is the man!

Regards,

Joe

[JeffLearman]

Finger extensions? Even without extensions, Levin's a monster. I saw him with King Crimson on the Discipline tour, in a venue where everyone had front row seats.

 

When copying solos from albums, I often used to find parts that I couldn't imagine how they could possibly be played. Then, after seeing how studio albums are made ... duh!

 

For example, there's a video clip of David Gilmour recording leads for Dark Side of the Moon. You see him start over and over, and hear some licks that are either the ones on the album or very close. And it's obvious that "the solo" is actually a patchwork of a LOT of passes through that section. The parts I used to get confused about usually involved one note fading out while another fades in, often a transition (sliding or bending note).

 

One of the amazing things about Yes is, once they finally DID commit an arrangement to tape, they sure could play the hell out of it live. I think the live version of the tunes on Yessongs are the best ones to go by when playing those tunes. Not only are they playable by 5 people (well, not just ANY 5 people), but they're also improved in a number of subtle ways from the studio versions.

 

As most popular musicians will tell you, they only really learned how to play their tunes while on tour, well after the album is released.

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by learjeff:

Finger extensions? Even without extensions, Levin's a monster. I saw him with King Crimson on the Discipline tour, in a venue where everyone had front row seats.

Tony wearing the aforementioned finger extensions:

http://www.alicecoopertrivia.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/musicians/musician_images/m-tonylevin1.jpg

 

I've got the Deja VROOM DVD... frightening to watch these guys play (and, of course, it bugs me to no end that they don't have a keyboard player, opting instead to use guitar/MIDI interfaces to play synth parts...

 

Not to mention having Tony Levin and Trey Gunn both playing Chapman Sticks ("Touch Guitars" according to the KC website)... damn!

 

Oh, and damn Robert Fripp... damn him to Frippertronics hell.

 

Cheers,

SG

[alfonso]

Originally posted by learjeff:

 

One of the amazing things about Yes is, once they finally DID commit an arrangement to tape, they sure could play the hell out of it live.

This is their greatness. They used the studio in the most creative way possible with the only goal of making real anything could come out from their head and their guts, without limiting the product, and after that they managed to learn everything to be played live, something that was conceived beyond their possibilities as a 5 people combo...that's love for music!

[DanS]

Levin's a killer.Always fun watching him hold down the low end. I think the extensions are little mallets.

[JeffLearman]

Thanks for the photo, SG! I don't think he used those on that KC tour.

 

Right Alfonso, although they all admit that they were terribly unprofessional during recording. But, "pro" does not necessarily equal "art". As I'm sure you know!

 

One of the things I really liked about that KC lineup was the contrast between the Machine (Fripp) and the Animal (Adrian Belew). With monsters like Levin and Bruford supporting them -- what a powerhouse!

 

Oh well, back to "And You And I".

My favorite part of that song is one note: the triangle after the bass "BUM BUM BUM BUM, BUM BUM".

[Prague]

"Funk Fingers" is the correct term for the extensions when speaking Levin-ese

 

There are a few tunes on Yessongs that are just brutally excellent. I very much appreciate the studio versions, but the Yessongs "Close to the Edge" and "Siberian Khatru" are insanely great.

 

In fact, listen to "Excerpts from 6 Wives of Henry VII" which segues to "Roundabout". Monster friggin band with a monster keyboard player.

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by learjeff:

Thanks for the photo, SG! I don't think he used those on that KC tour.

On the Deja VROOOM DVD, he plays with them on only one track (that I've noticed): Talking Drum, from the Lark's Tongue In Aspic album.

 

He also uses them extensively with Peter Gabriel on both live concert DVDs: Secret World and Growing Up Live.

 

Cheers,

SG

(sorry to keep hijacking the Yes thread )