Atten: Kurz PC2 oweners....

[keyoctave]

I have to share this experience with you.

 

I got a call from a band to fill in for a couple of nights as their keyboardist was out on a family emergency. Since I have been doing home recording only for the past 6 months, my first thought was damm...I sold my B-3 clone a few months ago....What am I going to do for organ sounds? I have my PC2X with both expansion ROM's, a Triton LE and a Yamaha S03. When playing live I use a Motion Sound KBR-3D. The organs on all three were just ok but nothing like I would like and you can't edit all the effects out of the organ sounds giving you a 'raw' organ sample to play on the organ side of the KBR, or so I thought.

 

I knew that the Kurz uses tone-wheel synthesis for their KB3 samples. I read the manual and found that I could edit the rotor sim out but be able to leave the other effects (which are added on top of the samples, not part of the samples as on other keyboards). I then played those sounds through the organ side of my KBR and ....HOLY S***!!!! I could not believe how good it sounded! The organ samples had a new character when played like this. I was most impressed with the top end. Very smooth with none of the digital quality that I have heard off of other emulations. I could still turn on and off the percussion, adjust the percussion volume and harmonic. Turn on and off the vibrato/chorus and switch between the 6 variations. I have full use of the sliders as drawbars and have up to 16 presets that I can program sounds with any effect (percussion or vibrato) to go along with them. Since the KBR has a tube on the pre-amp side, I was able to get distortion along with clean sounds if I wanted to. (the addition of a speakeasy pre-amp would also help this).

 

The downside is that playing organ on a weighted action is NOT the best thing to do. I used the S03 midied into the Kurz and used it's crappy action (which is good for organ playing) as the controller. You will also need a Leslie or Motion Sound speaker to play through.

 

After the gigs, all the band members came up to me at different times and commented on how good the organ sounded.

 

We have talked on this forum about an all in one keyboard before. While I would perfer to use at least two keyboards, I am thinking how a PC2 would be in this instance. It has a semi-weighted action that would bone well for organ playing and when loaded with both expansion ROM's, would cover all the bases (and quite well IMHO). I would use the PC2 run through a Moution Sound SRS-3B switch which has stereo in with Stereo out and seperate organ out (you can switch between the two) and use either the KBR-3D or any stereo keyboard amp and Leslie. What amazes me is that this is a 6 year old design that can still hold it's own against other more recent keyboard additions to the market (and those are some very good boards). Well done Kurzweil!

 

I originaly was going to purchase a PC2 but was offered such a good deal on the X that I could not pass it up. Now I am thinking, sell the X for a PC2? Hmmmm......

[ITGITC]

 

This doesn't surprise me.

 

http://www.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/filesafe/352_PC2X.jpg

 

The Kurzweil PC2X is the finest keyboard of its kind on the market.

 

If you don't believe it, just ask me!

 

Is There Gas In The Car?

[ELP71]

The ONLY reason I have an S90 and a PC2R instead of a PC2X is because I grew weary of the Fatar action (longtime PC88 owner).

 

The PC series is magnificent. One of the knocks is lack of editing...but who cares??? The sounds are fine on their own. And the the design is impeccable - the layout, the sleekness. Makes the S90 look like a big old block of poo. I am particularly fond of the 'thinness' of the PC2X frame - the S90 is almost twice as 'tall'.

 

The S90 is gonna be sitting in my studio, I am seriously thinking about a PC2X for gigs. The Roland RD700SX would be a nice choice too - it is similarly 'sleek'.

[Prague]

I was on the brink of getting the PC-2 76-key version, but I needed an 88 weighted action. I use a A-70 controller for the non-weighted sounds.

 

I'm definately going to try your setup. I would bet Kurz could do quite well selling a KB3 only sound module.

[DLN]

The PC series is magnificent. One of the knocks is lack of editing...

Check out Frank-Detlef Speck's PC2 Manager for Windows. The download link in this thread is broken; for convenience, here is the corrected link .

 

The PC2 Manager is a great, FREE editor/librarian. It lets you edit the VAST engine inside the PC1x, PC161 and PC2, effectively turning them into programmable, synthesizers with capabilities that approach those of the K2000. We used the PC2 Manager to design our FM sounds for PC1x/PC161 and PC2.

[burningbusch]

You guys don't find that the PC2x lags significantly in KB3 mode when using an expression pedal? I've found that on two different units.

 

Busch.

[Prague]

Hmm. I'm assuming you mean that the application of volume swells is what lags.

 

I'll look into that, busch. I have found that many times CC11, Expression, is programmed by default. I change them all to CC7, Volume.

 

Since I have the weighted keyboard, I tap the KB3 sounds and volume via a Roland A-70 controller via MIDI.

[Jazz+]

Playe the PC88 for 5 years and the PC2X for 3 years. I sold them without regret and never looked back.

[AmplifierExperts]

If you like the PC2's KB3 emulation, you LOVE the K2600's KB3--much better effects processing to the point where all you'll need is an amp and speaker to get the sound out there.

I love my PC2, but mainly use it where it excels, which is in orchestral sounds. My K2600 does most of the piano and organ sounds best, and my K2500 is loaded up with drum and bass samples, so I use all three here in the studio to produce stunning reproductions.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by Prague:

Hmm. I'm assuming you mean that the application of volume swells is what lags.

 

I'll look into that, busch. I have found that many times CC11, Expression, is programmed by default. I change them all to CC7, Volume.

 

Since I have the weighted keyboard, I tap the KB3 sounds and volume via a Roland A-70 controller via MIDI.

Yes, I'm referring to using CC#11. That is generally the preferred method. Volume is set so that it's optimum for the instrument, then use CC#11/expression to control the instrument within the range.

 

Whenever I tried using the expression pedal while playing two handed I got severe note lag.

 

Busch.

[keyoctave]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

Originally posted by Prague:

Hmm. I'm assuming you mean that the application of volume swells is what lags.

 

I'll look into that, busch. I have found that many times CC11, Expression, is programmed by default. I change them all to CC7, Volume.

 

Since I have the weighted keyboard, I tap the KB3 sounds and volume via a Roland A-70 controller via MIDI.

Yes, I'm referring to using CC#11. That is generally the preferred method. Volume is set so that it's optimum for the instrument, then use CC#11/expression to control the instrument within the range.

 

Whenever I tried using the expression pedal while playing two handed I got severe note lag.

 

Busch.

Busch,

I used two different keyboards as controllers and switched the foot pedal response to CC#7 and CC#11. I also changed the KB3 pre-amp response (expression/volume) in the edit menu on and off and did different combinations of this with both keyboards. I did not get any lag. I use a Roland EV-5 pedal and have Ver. 4.0 in the PC2X.

 

My question (both to you and Prague) is in this case, what is the advantage to setting things up as volume instead of expression? (besides the note lag you have mentioned). I know that expression works as a loudness control and is more 'authentic' but is it better?

 

Now that I have had some time to play around with the KB3 mode, I am even more impressed. I like the large amount of editing that is availible, especially the leakage (great for Jon Lord sounds), keyclick for attack and release,and the different wheel volume and organ maps that are sampled from B-3's in diverse condition's of repair. You are even given the option of changing the drawbars so they change sounds in a smooth linear response or in a step fashion.

[burningbusch]

Note to be clear, my experience with the lag is with the PC2R, not the keyboard. As they have the same engine, I assumed they would respond the same.

 

You can clearly see how MIDI #7 and MIDI #11 work with a software instrument like the B4. Let's say optimum output volume on a B4 preset is at 2:00 and anything above that will start clipping the outputs. If you assign your foot pedal to send CC#7 the pedal will move the volume knob from the 7:00 (0) setting to 5:00 (127), causing the output to clip. If, on the other hand, you use CC#11, the output volume will stay at the 2:00 setting but the expression (or internal volume of the instrument) will range from 7:00 (0) to 2:00 (127), so the output won't clip. There are probably better ways of explaining this but that's the best I could come up with.

 

CC#11 is standard for expression pedals, hardware and software.

 

Busch.

[burningbusch]

Another thing. The lag issue could have been cleared up in an update. It has been a while since I've tried it.

 

Busch.

[Prague]

I just use volume. Expression is just another controller unless it is prescribed to do more than just volume. It does mention this in the manual. I'll have to refresh my memory, too!

 

I think I recall that there is a tonal effect associated with the volume effect in the KB3 modes when using CC#11.

 

CC#7 used as Volume is fine, otherwise. I still have a Volume pedal and then have an Expression pedal (or Filter, or whatever).

[keyoctave]

Busch.....That is a very good way of explaining it. Thanks!

 

Prague.....There is a tonal effect with the preamp response enabled(CC#11)in KB3 mode. Thanks also!

[Prague]

I usually set up things so that a Volume of 127 does not clip.

 

My only problem when using Expression is that I get the full throw of the pedal only controlling a limited amount of Volume. Basically, it changes the response curve of the pedal.

 

However, as busch pointed out, I can prescribe 0-127 to maintain the pedal's response curve AND utilize the tonal function of the Expression function.

 

Also, if necessary, I can assign CC#7 to expression. Usually, though, I just use the 2nd pedal.