PRO MEGA (sympathetic ressonance)

[BOPBEEPER]

Can any PrOmEGaDudeS out there confirm or deny If the use of General Music's proprietory pedal unit makes a noticeable improvement of the sympathetic ressonance (which is physicaly modeled not sampled)on the Acoustic pianos in the PRO MEGA ?

 

I'd love to hear some opinions on this as none of the stores who sell the PM stock the pedal.

[gangsu]

I'm currently using only headphones (Audio Technica ATH-M40s - you know how many times I had to run back and check all those letters out to get it right?? But it sure is fun to drop a few letters myself around here- where was I...right. So, I'm hearing everything very clearly, and actually you have to listen carefully. Suppose I silently play a c7 chord LH, and do a fast octave run up and down RH. YES, by gosh, you can really hear it. It's quite superb really.

 

That's an extreme example, though.

 

Is it really safe to come out? MARINO'S HERE He makes me nervous! I don't think he likes me too much

[marino]

Originally posted by wantpromega3:

Is it really safe to come out? MARINO'S HERE He makes me nervous! I don't think he likes me too much

Huh?!

 

Is there something going on which I'm missing?

Seriously - maybe I'm just dumb, but I have no idea what you're talking about...

[gangsu]

ok, you don't have to say you actually like me, that would be rather presumtuous of me...

 

back to the topic at hand

[BOPBEEPER]

I dont want to break anything up between you tWO but- wanaPM-yes I understand what Sym res is though your demo was nicely verbalised but I need to know if you are using an ordinary switch pedal or GEM'S sKIMPYTHETIC RESSONANCE DUBERY??

[gangsu]

Originally posted by BOPBEEPER:

I dont want to break anything up between you tWO but- wanaPM-yes I understand what Sym res is though your demo was nicely verbalised but I need to know if you are using an ordinary switch pedal or GEM'S sKIMPYTHETIC RESSONANCE DUBERY??

Gem's whaaat?

 

There's nothin' ORDINARY about nothin' in MY rig.

(3-pedal unit. Made by General Music. The darn plastic covers on my pedals are stronger than you guys pedals)

[BOPBEEPER]

Ive been talking to a guy who was looking into getting a digi piano - he tried out a Pro Mega 2 in the store and liked it OK but no more than any other digi piano.

He got them to order a GEM pedal tried it again latern and there was no question for him - out comes his credit card and he's very happy with it.

 

Now , the question I have for you Pro Mega owners is did he have some kind of epiphany or did the different pedal make a significant improvement in the sound of the Acoustic piano sound?

[hermanjoe]

I was not aware that you needed an additional pedal for resonance. You do need the 3 pedal unit for soft pedaling however. To answer the question I do not know if the 3 pedal unit is better. I'll check my manual. I know Dave McM reads the thread called GEM preomega 3. You could ask him there. The piano sound on stereo grand 1 is my fav. I also dig the upright sound, and funk piano.

[gangsu]

The resonance test that I described was done without pedal. I merely held down some keys in my left hand.

[gangsu]

OK, I think you might want to pose your question one more time

 

The Promega 3 comes shipped with a standard sustain pedal. Looks pretty much like any other good quality piano-type sustain pedal. I haven't taken it out of the plastic and listened to it, since I have the other unit. But I can assure you that it works. Is that preposterous of me??

[c4]

Hermanjoe is correct. The resonance is built into the software and does not need the pedal. The pedal is required for half pedaling etc.

[DaveMcM]

Originally posted by BOPBEEPER:

Can any PrOmEGaDudeS out there confirm or deny If the use of General Music's proprietory pedal unit makes a noticeable improvement of the sympathetic ressonance (which is physicaly modeled not sampled)on the Acoustic pianos in the PRO MEGA ?

 

I'd love to hear some opinions on this as none of the stores who sell the PM stock the pedal.

Hello BOPBEEPER and all,

 

Sorry it took me a day to get here.

 

The fancier damper pedal unit that we offer (3 pedals) features a continuous controller for the damper instead of the more common momentary switch that other damper/sustain pedals use.

 

Think of how dampers work in an acoustic piano. If you strike a single key (or group of keys) staccato without pressing the damper pedal, you will hear only the strings energized by the hammer strike associated with that key. If you FULLY depress the damper pedal and play one or more notes staccato, you will not only hear the notes that you actually played, but also many of the other strings will become energized due to the sound waves emanating from the strings that were originally set in motion and from the vibrations traveling through the bridge and soundboard of the piano. This is called sympathetic vibration, or what we call Natural String Resonance.

 

In an acoustic piano, the dampers are made of a medium/low density felt generally around a 3/8 to ½ thick. When the damper pedal is not pressed, the damper felts are resting on the strings to mute any vibrations that may occur from other notes being played. So you can imagine that as you SLOWLY press down on the damper pedal the felt will become less and less compressed until eventually it is no longer in contact with the string(s). The strings freedom of movement is dependant on the position of the dampers, i.e. the farther down the damper pedal is pressed (raising the dampers), the more the strings can vibrate creating additional harmonics and increased amplitude. It is this time between the dampers being fully engaged and/or fully released that we call Damper Physical Modeling, which is one of the features of the Promega series. This feature requires the use of our 3 pedal unit since a continuous controller is needed to allow the computer model to respond to the actual damper position.

 

So, does the 3 pedal unit make a difference? Yes, there will be slight differences in the amplitude of the various harmonics re-created depending on the position of the damper pedal.

--------------------------

 

If I may also respond to another post regarding the person who went to play the Promega 2 and other digitals;

 

Things like sympathetic vibrations, damper pedal effects, etc can be very subtle in an acoustic piano. The Promega was designed to not only duplicate the sound of an acoustic piano but also the physical characteristics as well and therefore will exhibit the same subtleties.

 

Will you here the effects of natural string resonance or damper physical modeling while trying out a Promega in a music store with a fairly high level of background noise? Probably not.

 

Will these features make a difference when playing Jerry Lee Lewis licks? Probably not.

 

Will they make a difference if you are playing a ballad where the sound of the piano is actually important? Will these features make a difference in a recording environment? Or doing a solo piano gig or a jazz or classical gig where the sound and response of an acoustic piano is desirable? Absolutely.

 

By the way, I am not saying that you have to be some kind of piano virtuoso to appreciate the Promega. We dont have our noses in the air, if you know what I mean. The Promega is extremely versatile and can produce a nice in your face bright piano sound that will cut through the mix and hold its own against the loudest of drummers and guitar players. I know. Been there done that.

 

Finally, I always suggest taking a good pair of headphones with you when trying out digital pianos and keyboards in general. That way you are not relying on the store to have a good quality stereo amplification system that all of the keyboards are running through simultaneously. To many times I have walked into a music store and seen a keyboard plugged into a single keyboard amp that is pushed way under the keyboard stand so the only way to hear any high frequency is to lie down on the floor in front of the amp. And then another keyboard is plugged into powered monitors with 4 inch woofers and wizzer cones. That is no way to get a fair comparison between brands/models.

 

Sorry to be so long winded here. I hope you find some of this useful.

 

Best Regards,

 

Dave McMahan

Generalmusic USA

[c4]

slightly OT but what software do you use to load a .mid file into the promega 3?

The manual doesnt say anything about it..

 

Sue maybe you can chime in here..

[DaveMcM]

Originally posted by c4:

slightly OT but what software do you use to load a .mid file into the promega 3?

The manual doesnt say anything about it..

 

Sue maybe you can chime in here..

Hi c4,

 

Any sequencer program will work. Just load the MIDI file into the sequencer, connect the MIDI OUT of the PC to the MIDI IN of the Promega and play the sequence. The system exclusive information will then be transferred into the Promega.

 

Best Regards,

 

Dave McMahan

[c4]

ok thanks Dave!

[gangsu]

Originally posted by DaveMcM:

 

Any sequencer program will work. Just load the MIDI file into the sequencer, connect the MIDI OUT of the PC to the MIDI IN of the Promega and play the sequence. The system exclusive information will then be transferred into the Promega.

Don't ya love the way everything sounds so darn simple around here?!

 

If you would like step by step instructions c4, but are too polite to ask, I'm with ya!

 

Dave, thanks for the in-depth review on sympathetic resonance. BTW, I had no idea that the standard pedal included with the PM3 was not capable of the same magic. Close one!

 

HOWEVER, kick me if you will, I STILL say: if you want an uncluttered, straightforward, amazing experience in symphonic resonation, I mean reverberation, aaghhh whatever the heck it's called, TRY IT WITHOUT THE PEDAL. If you've never tried it on your acoustic piano, DO TRY IT NOW. Whole songs have been composed around this funky quirk of acoustics.

 

[BOPBEEPER]

Dave McM,

Great explanation! So it seems the pedal makes quantitative rather than a qualitative difference to the operation of the sympathetic ressonance.

The second part of your post was also right on. The guy who tried out the Pro mega 2 the second time was lucky to be in the store when there were no beat boxes etc. going and he said he played it for about an hour.He also mostly will be using it to accompany some female folk type singer so I guess he's going to be digging that ressonance.

Personaly I think I would sacrifice the pedal and its subtlties for a PM2 with a Fatar GRADED action!

 

Hermanjo, Yeah I have mostly played the St Grand 1 up till now but Iv'e recently tweeked StGrand 2 and I'm digging It more - Its a bit less full in the bass but without that clangy quality that the Fazioli sample has.GEM certainly wasted most of the preset slots on this board I mean! A DANCE piano!!I think a midi dump of Herbies settings would put things right . Come to tink of it they should have got that cat involved right from the start( not that long haired Capeman progie )

[gangsu]

Originally posted by BOPBEEPER:

[QB]

Personaly I think I would sacrifice the pedal and its subtlties for a PM2 with a Fatar GRADED action!

[QB]

I DO LIKE A MAN WHO KNOWS WHAT HE WANTS

[BOPBEEPER]

Well I'm almoast certain that I think I know what I want but then again- make that a Kawai GRADED action!

and now I know I must Go to bed!

[Immo]

Originally posted by BOPBEEPER:

Personaly I think I would sacrifice the pedal and its subtlties for a PM2 with a Fatar GRADED action!

I don't think I'm clear about what you mean by sacrificing the "pedal and its subtlties." I think I'm interpreting it wrong when I read it as sacrificing the PM3 with its pedal and lack of graded action, for a PM2 with graded action.

 

If that's what you're saying (which I don't think it is, I think I'm just confused), according to the generalmusic.com website the PM3 has graded and aftertouch, while the PM2 technical specifications doesn't list the keyboard being graded like the PM3 specifically does. But I don't have either, so it could just be the webmaster screwing up for all I know.

[gangsu]

The action on the PM3 feels balanced. That's misleading.

 

I'm heading out to the Festival of the Sound - 3 weeks of great chamber music headed up by James Campbell, clarinetist. I accompanied him about 4 years ago... the highlight of my musical career thus far.

 

Hope you get your keyboard soon Immordino. (I hear you've been chatting it up with Phil. cool

 

 

Later,

sue

 

BOPBEEPER - hell of a name - don't worry about me. It's just this place rubbing off on me.

[Dave Horne]

This is slightly off topic (and I entered this thread with great trepidation). I own a P250 with string (or sympathetic - or whatever) resonance. To be perfectly honest, I rather doubt anyone will hear that feature on a job. The only feature that I think is worth mentioning is half pedaling.

 

This string resonance is a great gimmick to make an electronic piano more 'real' from a marketing point of view, but I do not notice its existence when playing.

 

Does anyone really hear that in actual playing on an electronic piano? Perhaps if I could remove that additional layer and A\B the piano, .... I don't know.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

This is slightly off topic (and I entered this thread with great trepidation). I own a P250 with string (or sympathetic - or whatever) resonance. To be perfectly honest, I rather doubt anyone will hear that feature on a job. The only feature that I think is worth mentioning is half pedaling.

 

This string resonance is a great gimmick to make an electronic piano more 'real' from a marketing point of view, but I do not notice its existence when playing.

 

Does anyone really hear that in actual playing on an electronic piano? Perhaps if I could remove that additional layer and A\B the piano, .... I don't know.

Hi Dave,

 

Hahhaha, you're making me laugh. Don't be nervous. I think I get a bit carried away, defending the nest.

 

I wish I could let you sit down and play my PM3, I wish I could have all you guys in to play it. YES, it makes a difference. It blows all the Y's K's and R's out of the water (is that the saying?) I get frustrated listening to people, because they seem to get stuck in brand names. Heck, we'd all still be eating cornflakes with that mentality. I do still eat cornflakes, come to think of it....

 

I didn't seem to get any response from the idea of silently holding some notes and hearing them resonating after other notes had been played. Without pedal! That blows me away. No keyboard I've ever played has been capable of this. GEM technology is so far ahead of the competition, and yet there are only 2 or 3 people in this whole forum that are interested. Amazing! It's almost funny.

 

I've run out of time to give to the forum...packing up to leave in an hour. Hope you get some response to your questions!

 

SUe

[Dave Horne]

I didn't seem to get any response from the idea of silently holding some notes and hearing them resonating after other notes had been played. Without pedal! That blows me away. No keyboard I've ever played has been capable of this. GEM technology is so far ahead of the competition, and yet there are only 2 or 3 people in this whole forum that are interested. Amazing! It's almost funny.

I have the same thing on my P250. Just to be clear, I press a few notes down - either silently or wait until they after fade away (without or without pedal) - play the same notes an octave lower and sure enough, the depressed keys sound sympathetically. We are talking about the same thing, correct? It responds, in that sense, as a real piano.

 

My point in all of this - nice, but actually can hear that in playing? My GranTouch 1 does not have that and I never noticed it until I started reading about that feature here. I personally put that feature on the level of having a remote control for your car radio - nice, but so what.

 

I think it's great that the companies are improving their products and they have to keep coming up with 'selling points'.

 

Am I not understanding your post - I believe there are more companies that have that feature on their keyboards.

[DaveMcM]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

This is slightly off topic (and I entered this thread with great trepidation). I own a P250 with string (or sympathetic - or whatever) resonance. To be perfectly honest, I rather doubt anyone will hear that feature on a job. The only feature that I think is worth mentioning is half pedaling.

 

This string resonance is a great gimmick to make an electronic piano more 'real' from a marketing point of view, but I do not notice its existence when playing.

 

Does anyone really hear that in actual playing on an electronic piano? Perhaps if I could remove that additional layer and A\B the piano, .... I don't know.

Hello Dave,

 

"This is a subject that needs to be put to rest, huh? " Anyway, on to a response to your comment;

 

It is not a gimmick. This feature adds an extremely important piece to the puzzle in re-creating an authentic acoustic piano. Whether it is achieved by playing back a static sample of all strings ringing softly as some brands do, or a fancy reverb algorithm, or as in the case of the Promega a computer model creating in real time the proper harmonics/amplitudes/decays based on notes/velocities played, sympathetic vibrations are real physical and audible aspects of an acoustic piano.

 

To continue a point I made earlier in this thread, it depends on the style of music you are playing as to whether or not the advantages of this feature will make a difference. If you feel your audiences will hear the effects of half pedaling, then they will also hear string resonance.

 

Food for thought-

Do you know how the upper octave or so of strings on a real piano don't have dampers, so those notes ring free even when played staccato and the damper pedal is not depressed? I remember the very first electronic pianos that came to market didn't take this into consideration. Every digital piano today lets the upper notes ring free. Does someone looking for a digital piano specifically try out the upper notes to see if they are dampened or not? I doubt it. On those earlier electronic pianos, when a piano player would try out an electronic piano and hit some notes in the upper register, they felt something was missing. They might not know what, but there was something not there, something they werent hearing. Luckily, manufacturers caught on to this and the feature was implemented in future models.

 

That is the way I look at string resonance. It is something that is definitely there in an acoustic piano, and one of those "somethings" missing in digital pianos until recently.

 

Best Regards,

 

Dave McMahan

[Dave Horne]

Dave, maybe it isn't a gimmick, but if it were not advertised as a feature, how many of us would discover it? I keep reading over and over again - silently depress a few keys, play those notes an octave lower and you will hear, if you listen very, very carefully, the appropriate strings vibrating sympathetically.

 

If I were not aware that my P250 had that feature, I rather doubt I would hear it, let alone accidentally stumble upon it. We can agree to disagree - I do think it is great that they are trying to reproduce all of the properties of an acoustic piano, but frankly, it is a selling point in my world, not a feature. Working with a piano trio (drums and bass, not two violins), it's rather doubtful anyone will hear this feature.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

My $.02 on this is that I welcome any features manufacturers can come up with to add to the realism of digital pianos (as long as they keep the weight at 40lbs or less, that's one realistic feature I can do without ).

 

Some of these features may be less noticeable than others, but it all adds up, every little feature that (potentially) adds to the realism of the experience as a whole, is welcome.

 

But, to me, a spec list of features on paper is nice to read, but the proof is in the pudding. I have to sit down, play the thing, hear it, and see how it tickles my ivories. Just having a certain feature doesn't mean that feauture will sound good/feel good/whatever good when it comes time to actually play/listen to the instrument. Of course, this is not to knock the PM or any other particular product, I'm just sayin' that I'm from Missouri, the show-me state. I haven't heard the PM yet, I look forward to playing it one of these days. When I do, I'll report back my thoughts.

 

As Dave H mentioned, the resonance feature is not unique to Gem. Yamaha and some others have it also.

[Carlito]

By Guest User:

 

Some of these features may be less noticeable than others, but it all adds up, every little feature that (potentially) adds to the realism of the experience as a whole, is welcome.

I agree with that, and must add that every time you experience one of these new realistic features, it's hard to live without it. After practicing for over a year with giga-pianos, to my ears,the Yamaha P's and Roland RD's sound too thin and with a very narrow dynamic range. Until they get to the giga size, every time a new model is released, you'll wish ten more megabytes were used.(remember Petros?)