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OT - And they told her to abort this child


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I have a dillemma. I am friends with a woman who has a child that is severely handicapped or whatever it is you called kids like him. Spinal bifida? I can't remember what exactly it is. Whatever it is, it's bad. Severely deformed. Born without a penis. No normal digestive tract, so he has a colostomy. Probably, maybe five years old now. Contantly faced with major medical emergencies. Bladder infections and stuff and pneumonia and stuff. When this girl was carrying the baby, the doc advised her to abort it. That it would never have any type of normal life, so abort it. She got all pissed off at him and told him off. When she had him, for the first several years, they were in and out of the hospital. Major stuff. She turned alcoholic. Then, she got on crack and real bad drugs. Severe alcohol abuse. From the constant pressure of dealing with this child 24 hours a day. Damn near killed both of them in a car wreck. Drunk. Over this time, I have thought to myself that THIS was a case for abortion. That this child being born could be construed as a "bad" thing. That he is so severely messed up, he has no life. And that his birth ruined the lives of a couple. They are now going through divorce. Pressure brought on this, I'm sure, was a huge factor. Anyway, in the past year or so, I've changed my mind. I cannot possibly think that way anymore. Why? Because the child is COOL. This kid is something else. I would have NEVER, not in a million years thought this kid would be ANYthing like he is. He is SMART. You would not believe how sharp this kid is. He talks to you just like he's a grownup. I think his IQ must be very high. I am SHOCKED at how bright this kid is. He is so screwed up (physically) that his legs are spread out like he's doing the splits all the time. So, he cannot walk. But he sure can scoot. He now gets around by kinda leap froggin his bottom along the ground. He MOVES. His wrists and hands are severely deformed. His wrists are at such an angle (backwards?) that he cannot hold anything at the proper angle. He can barely hold anything at all. I'm not even sure he has normal hands. I think he has no thumbs. Couple of nights ago, he asked me to give him some Sprite. Then what did he do? He proceeded to pick the cup up with his forearms and gingerly pour the Sprite into another cup. And then back again. He got it all over him eventually but I just wiped it off. He thought he was really DOING something. It kinda got to me. He SINGS. At the top of his lungs. I'm tellin' ya, this kid is something else. So, it's changed my opinion of abortion somewhat. I don't know what the answer is. But put it this way, this kid does "have a life." HOWEVER, he is ONE HELLUVA handful to take care of. If it were your child, you could forget having a "normal" life. The burden is tremendous. Anyway, perhaps the above will provide you some value... FWIW. The dillemma... the girl is kinda sweet on me. And I am not interested. She called tonight and hinted strongly about a Christmas program they are having at this kid's school. Like... she was almost crying and stuff. She would like for me to come to it with some friends of hers. I feel sorry for her because this is like the first "normal" event for this kid. He is actually going to school now. Some kind of school. Okay, so, FOR THE KID... I would like to do it. BUT... if I do, she will maybe think I'm interested in her. What should I do? BTW, last year, out of the blue, I saw a bunny rabbit toy around Easter and I bought it for the boy. They just thought that was wonderful. I don't think very many people do things for them. I say this because I don't want her to get any ideas. She has enough problems without me letting her down. I'm not interested in her. Although, I'll be her friend. So, should I go to the deal? Furthermore, should I buy the boy a Christmas gift? (He has a father but his dad isn't much. He's on crack.) BTW, these are pretty "normal" middle-class America people, not some people in the gutter. You'd be surprised.

> > > [ Live! ] < < <

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Tell her straight out where you stand. If you really [i]do[/i] want to befriend this child (and God knows someone like that needs role models, let alone friends) but not be involved with the Mom, you need to be upfront with her. Otherwise forget it. One of my best friends has Cerebral Palsy. He was born dead. 30 days late with the umbilical(sp?) cord wrapped around his neck. He's now 30 years old, has his own recording studio, plays guitar, drives a car, and is getting married. Anything is possible.

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Livemusic- If this girl is the type who will misinterpret anything you do as a sign of love interest, it could be a problem. But it could be she`s just looking for some meaningful communication with a good, functional person. Maybe if you could be supportive but make it clear you have lots to do and you`re making an effort to clear a bit of time for them, she will get the idea.
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what are the moral equivalence you say the kid is smart what kind of life is this kid going to have when he is older what has happened to the life of this woman i personally could not handle being around such a situation if you can you should it will be priceless for both of them would it not consider what the child has ahead of him and the life the woman has led dealing with this also consider that if you get involved it is then part of your life as well which could be a detriment abortion is something i do not want to think about but considering the consequences of how many lives impacted negatively what is the moral equivalent based on a subjective definition of what life is [b]my own morality is simple[/b]pain is entropic humans alone have the capacity to negate that entropy to do otherwise is amoral there is nothing else [b]to allow suffering based on a religious context is amoral[/b] in my belief system and with that i think we are about to see the thread to end all threads craig will have to invoke 2 rules in his forum after this no religion no politics
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I believe every being should have a chance to live. Everything from that tick you hate so much, to a child such as him. If he is that smart, he will be something some day. Medical advances will allow for him to be a great, successful person. Who knows, maybe he'll be president someday. People like him could probably handle things better than anyone else has ever. They understand what hate can cause. It's a shame that doctor told her to abort. No one should be told to abort. Sure, it's her choice, and I'm glad she didn't, but to get on crack and alcohol because of it? I understand something like that takes its toll on the parent, but that's just stupid. She should have been better prepared for such a child. I know many autistic and otherwise impaired children. They are some of the coolest,nicest people I have ever met. (Other than the hippies I met at Panic) Anyway, I think you should comfort the child, become his friend, and do what you can to help the mother get help. The sleazeball dad can take a hike. Do what you can. You should know what you have to do, if you truly want to help this child.
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That Amneo Syntesis sp? testing that tells Doctors that babies might be born with defects is not always accurate. During my first trimester with my first child, I was told that it was a necessary testing procedure so I underwent the testing. The results came back positive as there being a possibility that my child could be born with defects. When I questioned them as to what the alternative would be, they answered abortion. They proceeded to tell me that there would be a 50/50 chance that my child would be born normal, but they would have to do a second test during the 2nd trimester to determine.... anyway, I was so annoyed by the whole process and resolve, that I refused to subject myself to anymore testing of such nature and profoundly stood my ground stating that abortion was NOT an option at any risk. My son was born healthy, and has continued to remain healthy with only normal childhood illnesses such as ear infections and likewise. And in addition to good health, the kid is a pistol to keep up with. This year he is in the seventh grade and has just been accepted into the SAGE program, Students in Academically Gifted Education. Had I opted for abortion rather than hold firm against it, I would never have known this kind of joy and honor that my son has given to me. Instead I would have lived life with a big void in wondering, what if? I've truly been blessed by having two healthy and very normal children. However, I do have a friend that has endured a similar situation in having an autistic sp? child, she is still changing diapers on her 22 year old daughter. It is a very sad situation, and I thank God that I am not in her shoes. She and her ex take turns at who tends to the needs of their daughter, but neither will ever be able to experience the joys of a full and wholesome life with the burdens they have been strapped with. There are support groups that offer assistance in situations like this, but sometimes it becomes a matter of pride in feeling like you are asking for handouts........ The mother is a very attractive and STACKED like a brick house woman, but she has NO self esteem what-so-ever because she knows the acceptance factor of men willing to walk into a situation such as hers... She takes love on the run, and bears the pain. I truly feel sorry for her, and have offered to help out on occassion... and thank God for her pride, she has never put me in a position to have to change a dirty diaper on a 22 year woman-child. I admire her courage, and commend her will to stand by a child that she gave birth to. She'll never be able to have a normal life again, but noone can deny the fact, even with her loose frills on the run, that she is a good mother. She could have given the child up, but instead has sacrificed her complete freedom, and life to provide. Offer this girl your friendship and let her know that you are not seeking anything more, she will be appreciative of the intelligible conversation. If you do not want anything more than a friendship with her, then KEEP THINGS PLATONIC and do not lead her on. You never know what may become of things; miracles have been known to happen... and this little smart guy might turn out to be the next Bill Gates! (Okay, nobody starts throwing rocks at the mention of Gates... all you Mac fans... he's the only one I could think of off the top of my head :D )

You can take the man away from his music, but you can't take the music out of the man.

 

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I'm a member of a Pro Vita type organization, so obviously, I'm against abortion on a principle level. As soon as those two cells melt together a human being is made. EVERY human being has the right to life. I'm not judging the ones who decide to have an abortion, because I am fully aware of the complications that can arise from giving birth to a severely handicapped baby. There are also situations where a woman got pregnant after being raped. There are LOTS of things that can make giving birth to a child an extremely complicated thing. But still, as I said, EVERY human being has the right to life. As a principle I do not believe it's up to any person to decide who should live, and who shouldn't. Stories like the ones mentioned earlier in this thread show some of the reasons why abortion should never be an option. Many (maybe even most) of the women who have an abortion suffer great paines psychologically, later. This is, of course, strongly related to religious and political issues. But I'm not going to go into that now. Many of you know where I stand in respect to such matters. I think the best thing you can do is to be a good friend. As said before, if you want to be "just a friend", then make that clear. I'm sure she will appreciate it. Do what you need to do to be a very good friend. Good luck!

-Joachim Dyndale

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I'm very pro-abortion, for people who want it. I can't imagine being in a position where you're told your child may be born with a handicap but if I was told the baby would [i]definitely[/i] be born with one, I'd want to terminate. Even so, it's not my decision to make as I'm male and as far as I'm concerned men have had jurisdiction over women's bodies for far too long.
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards.
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Joachim, at the risk of offending you I'll state my position on this and then retire from the thread. SSS already has enough bad feeling on it at the moment, PM me if you want to discuss this further :) One of the few things that REALLY pisses me off is the whole anti-abortion argument. These people are usually male, in my experience, and wish to have a say in what women, who they've never even met, do with their bodies. It's NONE of their fucking business whatsoever IMNSHO. As far as I'm concerned, a collection of cells is not a human being and laws are in place to determine when a pregnancy has gone too far to terminate it. I find it galling that someone can side with a foetus and not with a real live human being who has made her decision to have an abortion. It also offends me deeply that in the places where abortion is illegal, these laws are invariably drawn up by men. I think that, unless a male has a vested interest in a pregnancy (i.e. the prospective father) then he is simply not entitled to an opinion on this. We don't have the biological and the mental capability to have a say here. We don't know what it's like to be forced to carry an unwanted baby to full term and give birth to it, I can only imagine it would be absolute hell on earth. Why anyone would wish to force women to go through that experience is completely beyond me. Why they would want to have a child born who would grow up unloved and unwanted is beyond me. There are places on this planet where rape victims are forced to give birth to the child. Sounds sadistic to me.
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards.
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[quote]Originally posted by Joachim P. Dyndale: [b]Well, that's where opinions differ. In my opinion a baby is NOT a part of the womans body. It's an individual human being.[/b][/quote]But at which point does the fetus become a baby? Is it the original zygote cell? The morula(day 3)? Is it when the baby's heart first starts beating(21 - 25 days)? Is it when the first brain activity begins to occur(~40 days)? Or is it at the point where the baby's brain and nerve fibers are developed enough that it is able to feel pain(10 weeks)? The biggest problem is that no one will agree at which point a living fetus can be recognized as a baby. ------------------ Your Friendly Neighborhood Jeebus
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[quote]Originally posted by Your Friendly Neighborhood Jeebus: [b]But at which point does the fetus become a baby? Is it the original zygote cell? The morula(day 3)? Is it when the baby's heart first starts beating(21 - 25 days)? Is it when the first brain activity begins to occur(~40 days)? Or is it at the point where the baby's brain and nerve fibers are developed enough that it is able to feel pain(10 weeks)? The biggest problem is that no one will agree at which point a living fetus can be recognized as a baby. ------------------ Your Friendly Neighborhood Jeebus[/b][/quote]Well, as I said, in my opinion it's at the very moment the one lucky sperm cell has done it's job. Some might think this is far fetched, but I say that if a 1 day old baby is not a human (why? because it's not as developed as a born baby?), then a week old baby is not a human, then a year old baby is not a human, then a 5 year old kid is not a human a.s.o.... Life starts right there when the sperm cell does it's job, the only difference between a 20 year old person and a 1 day old baby is the age. But then, I also have this religious perspective, you know, the stuff about every person being made by God etc... :) In my organization most of the members are female, actually. A couple of thousand years ago, babies weren't considered to be people until they were given a name (which they'd recieve at about the age of two). We have, thank God, come further since then, and now, legally speaking, a baby is considered a person after a few weeks. Maybe many years from now babies will be considered to be people right from the beginning (I hope). Who are we to decode wether a person will be able to live a meaningfull life? The stories earlier in this thread proves that we have no right to make that decision. As I said, I know how hard it is for many women out there, and I feel very sorry for them, because no one should experience such things. Unfortunately the world is very cruel for some people. I still think that this is an important principle that one should live by. Life is invaluable. No human being has the right to decide wether another person should live or not. Rog, I wasn't offended. I'm pretty hard to offend. I hope I haven't offended you in any way by anything I've said here. This is a subject people feel very strongly about. I respect that people have very different views on the subject. I say, at least let the women know about the alternatives to an abortion before they tell them that it's the only solution. There are LOTS of women out there who suffer from severe psychological problems because they were led to believe that abortion was the only way to go. I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point. Now let's get back to this music thing, shall we? :thu:

-Joachim Dyndale

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Einstein: The difference between genius and stupidity is: Genius has limits

 

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I'm with Rog on this. I think it should be left up to the woman & God as to what to do. Each woman's case is SO different - I believe that the rule of law is not sufficient to handle the decision. I also don't have a problem with facilitating a clean, safe way to handle an unpleasant situation. History shows that they will happen anyway - better to have it done correctly than to have it done in secret by some quack. The alternative is not simply saving babies - it is condemning women to their death. Now, as for the original topic here: I agree with what some have said above. You need to make it clear to her that you are only interested in being a friend. Then, you should go to the Christmas show and see the kid. Be a friend - the kid's gonna need all the friendship he can get. THAT is the quality of life. If you think you should give it to him, [b]do it.[/b] And bless you for doing it.
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Livemusic, I applaud your attempts to get in this kid's life. I can be very closed-minded and impatient, so I admire anyone who has the patience to help someone like this along, and from the sound of your story, he needs all the help he can get. I don't feel sorry for those parents at all- I feel sorry for their child. If the best they can do is get drunk and high to push him out of their minds, I'd feel a moral obligation to give him some sort of supportive atmosphere. If this kid really means something to you, I'd help him out any way possible and forget what his parents might think- they sound like they'll be too busy feeling sorry for themselves anyway.
...think funky thoughts... :freak:
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I do hate to sound like a grade-school religion teacher, but after thoughtful consideration: What's the whole center of the abortion issue? Sex, and the perceived freedom associated with it. Whether you agree with religious doctrine on the subject or not, sex among humans is only fully supported among monogamous couples. Anywhere else, it creates nothing but problems, regardless of the "solutions" to those problems. People want to take freedoms that they are not given in nature and won't accept the results. If you are going to sleep with someone, you'd better accept the responsibility that comes with that, both to your partner and to anyone else involved, no matter how old they might be. If you can't, leave your pants on and help make the world a better place.
...think funky thoughts... :freak:
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I'm not a religous zealot, but I believe if rational people look inside their hearts, it's fairly obvious that abortion (in most cases) is wrong. I'm not a woman, and I'll never know the feeling/responsibility of having to carry and give birth to a child, but when I look at my pregnant wife and see how profoundly happy she is, and I think of the months of praying for pregnancy, I can't believe anybody could go though with an abortion. I also believe in consequnces, a trait lacking in many people today. If you're responsible enough to have sex, you should be responsible enough to be inconvenienced for 9 months. 90% of the women having abortions are caucasian, and the waiting list to adopt caucasian babies is several years long.
"Politics are like sports, where all the teams suck"
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If I may...could we perhaps steer this discussion away from a discussion on abortion, and rather focus on the fact that that was really only a small initial part of Duke's original post. The general tone of the post was "Here is a severely handicapped child that I can help. His mother is also severely handicapped, emotionally. I might not be able to help her. What is the best thing to do?" This abortion argument can't be won here. It can't be won anywhere else, so how on earth could we hope to resolve it here? Let's turn our focus rather on how to help the Dukester deal with his current dilemma... :D :D :D All I can say regarding the abortion thing is that each side should [i]carefully study[/i] the documentation supporting the other side, in other words, don't just read the literature your own side is saying trashing the other side ("They say this and such"), actually read literature from the other side.
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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Teleologic reasoning (the end justifies the means)will fail us here. Because the story is still being written, it's the characters who are writing it and nobody knows the last chapter. Tell the kid about Stephen Hawking. It's great that you like/love this kid. Love rules. :thu: Jerry PS: I don't have any advice for you on the girl except that you gotta be true to yourself. What was that Jackie Gleason movie about a love triangle? Kid loves Dad. Dad loves this girlfriend. Girlfriend loves kid but not Dad. Tough situation.
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Duke, I agree with the previous posts that say be up front with the woman about your relationship with her, and do what you can for the kid. You may not be able to stop her from developing feelings for you, but at least her expectations will be grounded in reality. I'm proud of you for wanting to help these folks. :thu:
So Many Drummers. So Little Time...
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Add me to that list with Tusk and Ted! I'm very proud to see someone willing to step up to the need of others. It's a very humble thing to do, and good deeds ALWAYS come back around. Maybe not from your friend, as she may not be in the position to offer returns, but somewhere and someday you find yourself thanking someone else for coming to your side in an hour of need.

You can take the man away from his music, but you can't take the music out of the man.

 

Books by Craig Anderton through Amazon

 

Sweetwater: Bruce Swedien\'s "Make Mine Music"

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Yeah, buy the kid a present. Whatever the mother thinks or what impression she gets, it will mean a whole lot to the kid, which is the most important thing. Anyway, women get the message quickly enough, I doubt that would be a big issue for long. Like the others, I admire your concern for the kid! You sound like you're a bit of good luck in his life.
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Well, I'm not a woman, and my wife is glad... :rolleyes: So anyway, I have to give you mondo credit, Livemusic, for spending time with this child. Also for looking past what is "normal"... Past what is comfortable, and seeing a beautiful person. People like you are what is [b]right[/b] with society. I hope you will continue to be a part of his life. Hopefully his mom can accept you as a friend, rather than trying to jump you so she can get back into a relationship as soon as possible. You might be able to ensure your place in his life if you help her by maybe taking him on some day-long outings. It would be good for him, and good for you. Plus, she gets to enjoy the peace and freetime. If she gets used to you doing that regularly, she won't dream of getting rid of you over the lack of a romantic relationship. You'll be far too valuable as a trusted care provider! I used to work at a children's home for developmentally disabled kids, ages 5-21. I took the job knowing I was going to be REALLY uneasy with what I was going to be seeing and what I was going to be doing, and dealing with. I figured I'd give it a month. Well, I continued to work there until I could now longer afford a living on the salary. But what an experience! Those kids taught me SO MUCH about life, and about people. It was a very rewarding time, and I think everyone should experience it. I did have people telling about all of the negative points in the lives of these children, and how they would have been better off aborted. It left me speechless because to me it would be like killing your friends. It's unfortunate that people feel that way. I understand that they have no basis for comparison. But we live in a time when so much is available to allow disabled people to contribute to society, yet we continue see them more as 'things' than as people no less valid than ourselves. Take Stephan Hawkings, for example. Okay, he was born "normal". But what difference does it make? He's still basically a brain and some vital organs trapped in a non-functional body. Were it just a few decades ago, we wouldn't even know anything about him. He'd be in some institution sitting there like a living corpse. But thankfully, we now have the means to help him live a full life, and look at who he is and all that he has done! But if he were in the womb and suppose he would be born with his handicap and some test results came back positive for this condition, would he have been aborted? Would it be better to have aborted him? I think a lot of people are looking at this issue through the wrong end of the telescope.

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