Why There's no Virtual Tone Wheel organ from ....?

[Carlito]

Korg, Roland, E-mu, Kurzweil, Hammond Suzuki of course, Voce, They all have their version of the B3 clone. Not Yamaha. Why? Do you think they got too late in the race, or what they might have cooking is not good enough to compete with the other guys? Or do they think it's not worth it?

 

At least they could make one for their Modular Synth plug in system.It would be a great addition to their PLG boards. Korg could also add a version of their CX to the expansion boards. Just a thought.

[Slowly]

Hmmm, I never noticed Yamaha wasn't in the game. Kcbass

[Dave Pierce]

I've often wondered the same thing.

 

--Dave

[eric]

I keep thinking that Yamaha will come out with a drawbar clone at some point. There has been a ton of new tonewheel clones on the market, like the Korg CX, Roland VK and Nord Electros (not to mention Hammond XK). Yamaha may have considered that the market was already crowded enough for them to make much profit off of another copy cat organ.

 

Now that Roland (VR-760) and Clavia (Electro) have upped the ante with the all-in-one concept (organ w/other vintage keyboard sounds), Yamaha may be well-served by trying to compete. I could see them taking the S90 soundset and packaging it in a smaller, lighter package with 76 keys and include a set of drawbars, very similar to the Roland VR-760. Maybe they will sit back and see how well the VR-760 does and then decide if it is worth it? Since there are many people that like Yamaha's sound over Roland's, maybe there is a market for a "me too" all-in-one package from Yamaha. Kind of like the Motif/Fantom/Triton "Big 3"...there may come a time when there is a "Big 3" amongst the Hammond clone/vintage keyboard instruments.

 

As a diehard Hammond clone enthusiast, I would love to see more and more of these being introduced to force the manufacturers to keep upping the ante.

 

Regards,

Eric

[ksoper]

I heard from a retailer two weeks ago that the sales of organ clones was a little on the soft side. Maybe this is true in your area, too.

 

Maybe Yamaha doesn't want to chance creating something for a niche market, albeit a large niche, that may disappear in a year or two. Who knows?

 

I had the misfortune of playing a Motif on a gig last Saturday. (One of those situations where you had to play what was on stage.) While I'm sure there are wonderful sounds buried within the Motif, the preset organs were not anything spectacular. Their Leslie sim was horrible and the samples were thin.

 

Yamaha may be better of staying out of the race.

 

k.

[Superbobus]

Maybe THAT's the reason why. They are so much behind when it comes to organ patches. But then again, wasn't Yamaha the one to come out with physical modeling?

The CS6x organs are ok but nothing special and after a while they start to be boring. Leslie sim sucks baaaaad and no drawbar thingies. Besides the organ and piano patches I that board (it kicked several Tritons ass sound wise). Isn't it wonderful that most of us don't have to stick with one brand?

 

Soulstars

[Carlito]

Originally quoted by Ksoper:

I heard from a retailer two weeks ago that the sales of organ clones was a little on the soft side. Maybe this is true in your area, too.

 

Maybe Yamaha doesn't want to chance creating something for a niche market, albeit a large niche, that may disappear in a year or two. Who knows?

Maybe that's why Roland is releasing the VR-760 and Clavia is doing well with their Electro.Multi-function keyboard is the way to go.

[burningbusch]

I think the Roland VK8M has lots of potential. Even if Yamaha introduced a plugin board, you'd still probably want drawbars and the other controls. So when you add up the cost of all that, the VK8M will probably land in that ballpark. It has provisions to be mounted on a stand and it's not that much more to carry around. I could see adding it to my rig (S90 and VL1, with the VL1 controlling the VK8M).

 

As to why Yamaha isn't in this market? I'm mistified as to why so many others ARE in this market. A few years ago there were only a few options and no one seemed to care. Now they're "hot." I notice that a lot of people who are into the clones have purchased several different models over time (I've owned three). No one seems all that content. Maybe they're selling to the same group of people over and over.

 

Busch.

[Jode]

I'm personally glad to see the market for Hammond clones so hot and so well-represented. I never thought I'd live to see the day that technology captured that sound so well. The only thing that mystifies me about it is the fact that it took this long for anyone to say, "Duh, we'll build a digital version of tonewheel circuitry and put drawbars on it." I'm glad there are enough people clamoring for that classic sound to drive the market half as far as it's gone.

 

It somehow reminds me of how my buddy Sam reacted years ago when the Roland JD800 came out. "Wow, the 'new' thing from Roland! And what's so new about it? They did what I've been asking them to do for years: PUT THE DAMN KNOBS BACK ON 'EM! Whoop-de-f*ckin' do!"

 

PS - anyone who knows anything about Hammond care and feeding, please check out my latest post under "1/4" out on a Hammond M3".

[coyote]

You know, I see a bunch of folks who love the clonewheels. BUT:

 

~They are sorta one-trick ponies which set you back $1400 or more - $3000 or more for a dual-manual.

~Many of those in the target demographic will never be satisfied with anything but a real tonewheel organ.

~Many who would consider purchasing a clone (such as myself) already have a real Hammond and therefore cannot justify the outlay for a clone, particularly when the real thing still sounds & feels better.

 

Given all that, I can understand Yamaha's reluctance to enter an already crowded market.

[ynottnaro]

Yamaha and organ clones: I think its just not something they're into pursuing. One of their biggest endorsees is Chester Thompson (B3 MONSTER) and even in the Motif instructional DVD/Video, Chester says that he loves new keyboards, but the one thing that NO ONE gets right is the Hammond organ; he says "I've tried them all, and NONE of them come close to the real thing." When you're #1 dude says that in your promotional materials, I think it's a safe bet that if you didn't edit it out it's because you're not going to try to crack that nut. And of course, it makes their competition look bad (even without mentioning any names).

 

And while we're talking about the Motif, I have to disagree with the earlier post about their organs being horrible. You can't compare the organs on the Motif with the dedicated b3 clones (VK7/8, Electro, CX3) as it is comparing fruit salad to apples. But if you compare Yamaha's fruit cocktail (Motif) to others (Roland XV series, Korg Triton, Kurzweil) I think Yamaha more than holds its own. They have the most realistic leslie sim going (good ramp up/down times, not nutty top speeds) and the four sliders up top work as "drawbars" on most of the organ patches. Ive owned Roland stuff for years, and even with their 60s/70s expansion card, once you got it home, you would NEVER use those sounds if you considered yourself any kind of Hammond player. They just sound wrong. Korg? The Trinity doesn't model the B3, it models their old CX3, and those Trinity organs actually sound worse in context than they do in the store. But that said, I still wouldn't use the Motif organs in a pinch. It's a sad reality that the 2 sounds every keyboardist (not synthesist) relies on are piano and organ, and those 2 sounds are the ones that keyboards seem to be the least capable of doing. I think the Motif has done a great job with their pianos and electric pianos. But there is room for improvement. Roland has done a great job with their pianos as well (the SRX piano card is incredible). I prefer the Motif piano live but in the studio, the Roland SRX sounds more authentic. Live, give me a Hammond, a V5 or an Electro AND a leslie, and in the studio, nothing but a Hammond/Leslie.

[Blues Disciple]

Coyote,

 

Well said. Anyone who truly wants or needs a Hammond sound should get a Hammond. A used spinet model with a Leslie 147 will cost about the same as a clone and sound better.

 

The only reason I would buy a clone now is for portability---to use for when I can't get the beast in or up steps--or as a backup should the original experience techical problems. (after all, my C3 was born in 1958).

 

Maybe Yamaha realizes these and the other points made here and opts not to put the money in R&D in order to put another option out in a crowded market. The return may not justify the investment.

 

A clone is kinda like masturbation---its okay when you need sex, but it ain't nothin like the real thing!

 

BD

[tenthplanet]

Also bear in mind that Yamaha has been a large prescence in the home organ market and while their organs produced a very nice sound, you would never mistake them for a Hammond by listening to them. Outside of a niche market for clonewheels, Yamaha has always gone their own way when it comes to keyboards (remember the DX-7?).

Michael

[Felix_dup1]

Clonewheels are a niche market, and they don't generate the kinds of sales numbers that most other categories (like workstations, synthesizers, digital pianos) do. Obviously, Yamaha decided not to go after the clonewheel market (they've had more than enough time to introduce something at this point).

 

I think we'll see more multi-purpose hybrids in the future. I also hope we'll see the prices drop somewhat on the clonewheels.

[b3keys]

When I think of Yamaha, I think of exceptional pianos and motorcycles (just kidding about the bikes).

 

A hammond clone from Yamaha isn't their forte, so that's why we probably haven't seen one.

[Dave Pierce]

Originally posted by b3keys:

A hammond clone from Yamaha isn't their forte, so that's why we probably haven't seen one.

Whereas the piano is their forte?

 

--Dave

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by carlitosway:

Korg, Roland, E-mu, Kurzweil, Hammond Suzuki of course, Voce, They all have their version of the B3 clone. Not Yamaha. Why? Do you think they got too late in the race, or what they might have cooking is not good enough to compete with the other guys? Or do they think it's not worth it?

 

At least they could make one for their Modular Synth plug in system.It would be a great addition to their PLG boards. Korg could also add a version of their CX to the expansion boards. Just a thought.

File it under, been there, done that...

 

http://www.melmusic.com.au/articles/pics/sk20.jpg

 

Quote from Melmusic:

"Yamaha released this model in 1979/80 attempting to cash in on the "lets put all our eggs in one basket" mindset, which was slowly spreading through the ranks of keyboard players long suffering from aching backs and empty wallets.Probably the cheapest of all the wannabes on the current secondhand market, with a little EQing, this keyboard can come up sounding pretty good. Its in its facilities that this unit really shinesa surprisingly reasonable Leslie simulator that speeds up and slows down(including an "Ensemble" setting); an 11 pin Leslie out connector with inbuilt preamp; infinitely adjustable percussion/vibrato and sustain features; a full complement of 9 drawbars; splittable keyboard and the very necessary 2nd and 3rd harmonic percussions.J ust in case you needed more convincing, Yamaha threw in not only a String Machine, but a Polyphonic Analog Synth as well!!! Each individual section-Organ, Strings and Polysynth, has its own output and level control as well as a master mix output..and its cheap too!!"

 

-----------------------------

So not only did Yamaha beat everyone to market with a B3 clone, they built an all-in-one machine a good 20 years before the Nord Electro and Roland VR-760. Note the ANALOG polysynth, individual outs and 11-pin connector.

 

Busch.

[Markyboard]

"Yamaha released this model in 1979/80 attempting to cash in on the "lets put all our eggs in one basket" mindset, which was slowly spreading through the ranks of keyboard players long suffering from aching backs and empty wallets.

Damn - no waterfall keys! Please Yamaha - perhap a version 2?

[Superbobus]

Yamaha and organ clones: I think its just not something they're into pursuing. One of their biggest endorsees is Chester Thompson (B3 MONSTER) and even in the Motif instructional DVD/Video, Chester says that he loves new keyboards, but the one thing that NO ONE gets right is the Hammond organ; he says "I've tried them all, and NONE of them come close to the real thing." When you're #1 dude says that in your promotional materials, I think it's a safe bet that if you didn't edit it out it's because you're not going to try to crack that nut. And of course, it makes their competition look bad (even without mentioning any names).

Isn't that last phrase the real reason why their #1 dude is saying this? Check out Kcbass's thread about Yamaha and B3. That says enough.

 

Soulstars

[B3Nut]

Well, in a way Yamaha has a clone out there. The Korg BX3 and CX3. They do own a controlling interest in Korg (at least 51% IIRC), after all.

 

Yamaha supplies the FS keybeds for the Tritons, too. I suspect the BX/CX keybeds are coming from Yammy under contract as well, but I can't say for sure as I've never had one of the new ones apart.

 

TP

[tenthplanet]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

Originally posted by carlitosway:

Korg, Roland, E-mu, Kurzweil, Hammond Suzuki of course, Voce, They all have their version of the B3 clone. Not Yamaha. Why? Do you think they got too late in the race, or what they might have cooking is not good enough to compete with the other guys? Or do they think it's not worth it?

 

At least they could make one for their Modular Synth plug in system.It would be a great addition to their PLG boards. Korg could also add a version of their CX to the expansion boards. Just a thought.

File it under, been there, done that...

 

http://www.melmusic.com.au/articles/pics/sk20.jpg

 

Quote from Melmusic:

"Yamaha released this model in 1979/80 attempting to cash in on the "lets put all our eggs in one basket" mindset, which was slowly spreading through the ranks of keyboard players long suffering from aching backs and empty wallets.Probably the cheapest of all the wannabes on the current secondhand market, with a little EQing, this keyboard can come up sounding pretty good. Its in its facilities that this unit really shinesa surprisingly reasonable Leslie simulator that speeds up and slows down(including an "Ensemble" setting); an 11 pin Leslie out connector with inbuilt preamp; infinitely adjustable percussion/vibrato and sustain features; a full complement of 9 drawbars; splittable keyboard and the very necessary 2nd and 3rd harmonic percussions.J ust in case you needed more convincing, Yamaha threw in not only a String Machine, but a Polyphonic Analog Synth as well!!! Each individual section-Organ, Strings and Polysynth, has its own output and level control as well as a master mix output..and its cheap too!!"

 

-----------------------------

So not only did Yamaha beat everyone to market with a B3 clone, they built an all-in-one machine a good 20 years before the Nord Electro and Roland VR-760. Note the ANALOG polysynth, individual outs and 11-pin connector.

 

Busch.

I remember this thing, it was Yamaha's version of an ARP Omni type of thing or some of the Crumar stuff. And the sound ???? Let's just say don't buy one off E-bay without hearing it. A s-03 or entry level synth from Korg will blow the doors off this thing.

 

Michael