Roland VK8

[Byrdman]

Got to try the new Roland "Hammond Wannabe" board last week. I want one!

 

They've added some amp modelling. There several selectable Hammond styles with

noticably different sounds. The overdrive is improved over the VK7 and there is now

a quite usable piano patch.

 

Overall a nice step up from the 7.

[RABid]

I wonder if it does a better job controlling the Native Instruments B4? I do like the waterfall keys of the new VK8.

 

Robert

[keyoctave]

I would like to know what you or others think of the Leslie simulation in the VK-8 or other clones. I am using an Oberheim OB3/2 organ with a Motion Sound KBR-3D(has a real leslie type speaker in it). I am thinking of selling the organ and amp and getting a Barbetta along with an organ with good Leslie simulation.(due to back problems, I don't need to be lifting the 70+ pounds of the KBR) The OB3/2 simulator is ok at slow speeds but sucks at fast speed. Any input would be appreciated!

[steinwaym]

I think that there is no substitute for the rotating speaker. I play a KBR 3-d and truly enjoy playing with it, as there is a certain rush playing through an actual rotating speaker. However, I really wonder how much difference there is for the audience, once it is run through to the house system. I also own a Barbetta. If I had it to do over again, I would purchase a Pro 3T and run it though the Barbetta, as I don't think that the "clean" side of the KBR is anywhere near as good as the Barbetta. For recording, I think that the new simulations are almost better, as it is obviously extremely easy to get a good signal, and you don't have to worry about miking a Leslie. But this also brings up the argument about things sounding too "perfect."

[Dave Pierce]

I love the actual rotating speaker, and I don't think there's any way to replicate that. The beauty of a Leslie is that the rotation always sounds different based on the hall you're in, and where the speaker is placed in the hall. It's a bit different if you're miking it, of course.

 

--Dave

[keyoctave]

Originally posted by steinwaym:

I think that there is no substitute for the rotating speaker. I play a KBR 3-d and truly enjoy playing with it, as there is a certain rush playing through an actual rotating speaker. However, I really wonder how much difference there is for the audience, once it is run through to the house system. I also own a Barbetta. If I had it to do over again, I would purchase a Pro 3T and run it though the Barbetta, as I don't think that the "clean" side of the KBR is anywhere near as good as the Barbetta. For recording, I think that the new simulations are almost better, as it is obviously extremely easy to get a good signal, and you don't have to worry about miking a Leslie. But this also brings up the argument about things sounding too "perfect."

Steimwayn, which Barbetta do you play through? I am looking at either the Sona 31 or 41. Do you feel that you need stereo for your keyboards on stage or is mono ok? I like the idea of using a Pro-3T. It would be much lighter than the KBR! I too find coloration in the keyboard side of the KBR. I put some pink noise through it, used a spectrum analyzer and found a lot of boost around the 300-500hz range and a dip at 1khz.(did this outside). Even after using an outboard EQ, it still doesn't sound right. (I must admit that I am picky when it comes to overall speaker accuracy). I have heard only good things about Barbetta, especially their lack of coloration.

[steinwaym]

I play on a Barbetta 41C (I have friends who love the 31C). It has a very very good sound. I personally just use the one amplifier, and I don't think that you need to run stereo. I don't know if others experience this, but I find when I run stereo, with two speakers around me, I feel like I am more of a separate entity from the group, instead of being "inside" of it.

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by Rabid:

I wonder if it does a better job controlling the Native Instruments B4? I do like the waterfall keys of the new VK8.

 

Robert

The VK-7 was the best controller for the NI B4.

[coyote]

I tried it.

 

It's pretty good. The Korg CX3 is still truer to the real thing soundwise IMO, and its keys feel better too. But the VK8 is pretty close. And the remote effect control thing, particularly with the ring modulator, is awesome! I'd love it if Korg incorporated that into the BX3 & CX3.... come to think of it, that thing would be an excellent addition to many synths.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by b_3guy:

Originally posted by Rabid:

I wonder if it does a better job controlling the Native Instruments B4? I do like the waterfall keys of the new VK8.

 

Robert

The VK-7 was the best controller for the NI B4.

Steve, I disagree with this. I had a VK-7 for a short while. The drawbars map to the B4 just fine. The problem is that all of the other knobs send SYSEX which makes it very difficult to map to the B4. The CX-3, on the other hand, sends user assignable CC# for everything. This maps much better, though it's still not perfect as some of the switches don't match up correctly with the B4.

 

Busch.

[SurrealMcCoyJazz]

Originally posted by keyoctave:

Originally posted by steinwaym:

I think that there is no substitute for the rotating speaker. I play a KBR 3-d and truly enjoy playing with it, as there is a certain rush playing through an actual rotating speaker. However, I really wonder how much difference there is for the audience, once it is run through to the house system. I also own a Barbetta. If I had it to do over again, I would purchase a Pro 3T and run it though the Barbetta, as I don't think that the "clean" side of the KBR is anywhere near as good as the Barbetta. For recording, I think that the new simulations are almost better, as it is obviously extremely easy to get a good signal, and you don't have to worry about miking a Leslie. But this also brings up the argument about things sounding too "perfect."

Steimwayn, which Barbetta do you play through? I am looking at either the Sona 31 or 41. Do you feel that you need stereo for your keyboards on stage or is mono ok? I like the idea of using a Pro-3T. It would be much lighter than the KBR! I too find coloration in the keyboard side of the KBR. I put some pink noise through it, used a spectrum analyzer and found a lot of boost around the 300-500hz range and a dip at 1khz.(did this outside). Even after using an outboard EQ, it still doesn't sound right. (I must admit that I am picky when it comes to overall speaker accuracy). I have heard only good things about Barbetta, especially their lack of coloration.

[SurrealMcCoyJazz]

I recently purchased a Kurzweil PC2R, and along with my Korg CX3, have been strongly considering the Motion-Sound KBR-3D. However, now I have been alerted to this "coloration" problem.

My questions: What type of keys or modules are you running thru the "clean" side? How well does the stereo expansion work on stage? Does the "coloration" primarily boost or cut the midrange? Thanks for any answers, as I was only able to briefly "demo" the KBR-3D at NAMM LOL!

[John_dup4]

I play different rigs for different gigs. I've moved from the VK7 to a Hammond XK2 and am really much happier with the sound. I play thru either a leslie 22 or thru my Barbetta 31 with a Pro 3T. I'm not sure what size of rooms you'll be playing, but if its for more than about 50 people get the Sona 41. The 31 just doesn't have the guts. while the 31 and 3T sound OK (and are easier to move) - it's still pale against the Leslie.

[keyoctave]

Originally posted by SurrealMcCoyJazz:

I recently purchased a Kurzweil PC2R, and along with my Korg CX3, have been strongly considering the Motion-Sound KBR-3D. However, now I have been alerted to this "coloration" problem.

My questions: What type of keys or modules are you running thru the "clean" side? How well does the stereo expansion work on stage? Does the "coloration" primarily boost or cut the midrange? Thanks for any answers, as I was only able to briefly "demo" the KBR-3D at NAMM LOL!

My experience with Motion Sound started with a phone call inquiring about the PRO-3T. I talked with the national sales manager (who is no longer with the company) and to make a lomg story short ended up sending me an early production KBR-3D to try out and send some feedback before they were released for sale. (this was due in part to my 12 years experence playing a B-3/147 on stage along with being a giging musician) At the time I was playing my keyboards (not organ) through a peavy KB series amp. When I first started using the KBR, I was totally blown away by the sound! I was very pleased in the overall quality of the keyboard sounds. The organ is great(and I still feel that way). I would keep the KBR as a 'leslie' if not for my back problems. Over a period of time, I had begun to notice a feeling that the keyboard sounds were not as good as I felt they should be. This was reinforced after I purchased a pair of sony studio headphones to practice through. "Wow, so this is how the keyboards are supposed to sound!" I then ran the pink noise test and found the problem (see prvious post). I think if Motion Sound would have incorperated some sort of active equalization that the midrange coloration could have been cleaned up. I know it is not fair to compare a sound stage amp against studio headphones but that is how I feel about sound. I have worked with large sound companys doing large concerts and have a lot of home A/V equipment. I realize that I can be more picky about sound accuracy than others may be. I feel that with the investment that keyboard players have to make in equipment, we deserve to be able to reproduce those sounds on stage with minimal coloration. Now, please note that I think Motion Sound products are very well made and are of the highest quality (I plan to purchase a Pro-3T after I sell my KBR). It's just that to my ears, the sound quality in the keyboard side of the system could have been done a little better. I don't use the stereo expander as that adds more coloration to the sound (though it does expand the stereo spread quite a bit). I use a Yamaha S03, Kurzweil SP-76 on the keyboard side (plan to purchase a ME1 soon) I also used an Ensoniq KS-32 for most of the time I had the KBR. The organ side is played with an Oberheim OB3/2. The unit has held up very well and I have had no problems with it. It may not sound as clear (according to others) as a Barbetta or Mackie SM450 but it does sound better than other 'keyboard' amps on the market.(IMHO of course--sound is so subjective) The final thought is: buy what sounds good to you.

[SurrealMcCoyJazz]

Thanks Keyoctave for your detailed response. I too am very particular about attaining the best sound closest to my AKG headphones on stage. I was also very concerned about the stereo aspect.There is a night/day difference with my Kurzweil PC2R from mono to stereo. I was hoping that the KBR-3D could provide that despite the weight issue. Maybe the answer is to have a pair of Barbetta Sona 41's & the Pro 3T? If you have any other suggestions re: building the best on stage key and organ rig, please let me know. I have a decent stereo system for my rig (Crown power, Mackie mixer, E.V. speakers), it just isn't practical to haul and set up. As a result, I have been using a horrible old Crate 160 combo amp, which is very depressing!

[keyoctave]

I plan to purchase a Barbetta sona 41 and the Pro-3t. I will use that setup for awhile and see about the stereo issue. If it warrants, I would purchase another sona. (of course this will not be cheap!) Since the KBR has it's stereo speakers in one cabinet at 120 degree angles, I don't think there would be to much of a sacrifice going mono since the sound of each would come from a single point source vs. two seperate speakers in a stereo setup. (Others who use a mono keyboard system will be able to say more on this subject). One nice feture of the KBR is that it has stereo low impedence sends. It even has mics in the spinning horn part that mix with the low output. This makes it a snap to mix into the PA system. Of course, if it's a mono PA system then the stereo sound issue is moot.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by SurrealMcCoyJazz:

Thanks Keyoctave for your detailed response. I too am very particular about attaining the best sound closest to my AKG headphones on stage. I was also very concerned about the stereo aspect.There is a night/day difference with my Kurzweil PC2R from mono to stereo.

Can you amplify on the "night and day" between mono and stereo on the PC2R? I have been considering getting one of these, but I run mono on gigs, so if there are issues, I would like to know about them in advance. I've only audited one in stereo.

 

Somebody mentioned they prefer the XK2 to the VK7. So did I. I think the VK8 is a much harder call - it would be interesting to have them side by side. I think I would probably go for the VK8 because I think its probably more flexible.

[SurrealMcCoyJazz]

I have listened to the PC2R thru active Event studio monitors, AKG headphones, and my crappy Crate 160 combo amp. With the crossfading, modulations and layering of various patches in this wonderfully underated module, IMHO; Stereo is the "ticket"!When I first auditioned this piece in mono, I wasn't that impressed.BTW; I lucked out and got a "demo" from Guitar Center for $550.

 

I also had the chance to play the VK8 at NAMM last January. I liked it alot better than the VK7. I liked the extra voicings (instruments) added along with the effects. However, I still think that my Korg CX3 SINGS!!!

[Mike Martin]

Since it was mentioned a few times in this thread, I just wanted to make a comment about using the PC2 series in mono.

 

First of all if you are going to use it in mono, go to global mode and set the output to mono. Secondly there are mono versions of most of the stereo instruments like the piano. Making these two adjustments will make a huge difference in the quality of the sounds in a mono environment.

[SurrealMcCoyJazz]

When I first listened to the PC2X at a noisy NAMM show, it was thru headphones. At that point I didn't tweak any thing. Later when I had the opportunity; I made adjustments in the global section (E.Q.,effects, Stereo/mono A/B) IMHO this piece sounds wonderful in stereo. I did not mean to imply that it wouldn't be worthy in a mono setup.I mean; obviously they wouldn't take the time to do stereo samples if there wasn't some benifit?

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by SurrealMcCoyJazz:

I have listened to the PC2R thru active Event studio monitors, AKG headphones, and my crappy Crate 160 combo amp. With the crossfading, modulations and layering of various patches in this wonderfully underated module, IMHO; Stereo is the "ticket"!When I first auditioned this piece in mono, I wasn't that impressed.BTW; I lucked out and got a "demo" from Guitar Center for $550.

 

I also had the chance to play the VK8 at NAMM last January. I liked it alot better than the VK7. I liked the extra voicings (instruments) added along with the effects. However, I still think that my Korg CX3 SINGS!!!

I have tried the BX3 (the double manual and HEAVY Korg Combo). There was some one thing I did not like about that - I think it was the overdrive but perhaps it was the lesley emulation. Other than that I really liked it.

 

Is the CX3 a single manual version of the BX3 or are the differences sonically?

[SurrealMcCoyJazz]

I tend to agree about the overdrive effect on the Korg. Unfortunately, all of the Hammond "clones" seem to suffer in that area. That is one of the reasons I have been considering Motion-Sound gear. An actual tube to warm up the "digital" "end" along with a physical rotating speaker would really make the Korg definitely in "1st" place IMHO.

[SurrealMcCoyJazz]

Sorry--forgot to comment on BX3/CX3

It is my understanding that primarily along with the BX a double of the CX--there were some slight software updates---what exactly--I don't know. I saw it at the NAMM show--but didn't really play with it

[burningbusch]

I tend to agree with the CX-3 overdrive/distortion. It always has a Jon Lord kind of sound to it, which is fine for Jon Lord stuff but to my ear is a more aggressive than it probably needs to be for the other types of sounds. On most of the patches the overdrive is set too high for my tastes, but that's all programmable. My only other gripe is the double triggering. Still, I think Korg did a great job overall.

 

Busch.