Bomb Factory...wow...

[Dave Bryce]

Okay, so I just got a set of the Bomb Factory plug-ins for my DP rig. I've been hearing nothing but good things about these guys since they started out, but have never gotten a chance to try them.

 

Let me just say I am impressed out of my socks.

 

I tried the Moogerfooger 12 stage phaser plug-in against my real actual one - it is amazing! To my ear, it is literally indistinguishable from the real thing. Same with the lowpass filter - outstanding. I haven't gotten to the ringmod or analog delay yet, but I'll be shocked if they aren't equally superb.

 

I then tried the Fairchild, LA-2A and 1176 plug-ins - while I don't have the real versions of any of those in my studio, I cannot remember ever hearing dynamics processing software that was so smooth, warm and realistic. As a matter of fact, they rival just about any hardware dynamics processor that I've used.

 

I am blown away. I HIGHLY recommend this stuff...

 

Is anyone else using any of their software?

 

dB

[nursers]

I have a couple of their plugins, but having no real studio experience, don't really know what to do with em :-)

[vudoo]

Dave,

 

I have a Joe meek SC2 and use the LA-2A and 1176 fairly often ( whenever i do session ) and i have used the bomb Factory plugs with my ProTools system...unfortunately, i don't think they represent their hardware counterpart at ALL. The grit and fatness that you get out from the real stuff is unique. The plug-ins is not bad, it can rival hardware compressor in the $ 400-$600 range BUT it's nowhere the same as your Distressor, Manley, LA-2A hardware... I have not try the Mooger though.

BTW, check out the MCdsp Filterbank and Compressor bank...with proprer tweaking i can get basically the same sound as the bomb factory plugs....and it's MUCH more versatile than the BF.

Of course all this is only my personal opinion.

[CoolColJ]

The Fairchild plugin is similar in tonality to the real thing, but not as organic. It also pumps too much when pushed. The real thing is much smoother, still its a heck a lot cheaper

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by CoolColJ:

The real thing is much smoother, still its a heck a lot cheaper

 

Wow - you have a 660? Or someone you know does?

 

What are those things worth now - $25-$30,000?

 

Even if the plug-in is only 1/10th as good, it's an outrageous deal...and the folks I know who've tried A/B'ing 'em tell me that the plug-in is actually an outstanding representation...

 

dB

[Wiggum]

I would really like to see these guys release something for the VST or Direct-X platform. Yeah, it probably wouldn't be as intense as the PT version, but it would still rock.

 

Pro Tools is just way out of reach for many of us. They could make a lot of money by catering to a larger audience.

 

All the best,

 

Wiggum

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Wiggum:

I would really like to see these guys release something for the VST or Direct-X platform.

 

snip

 

They could make a lot of money by catering to a larger audience.

 

Actually, from what I understand, that might not be true. I hear that VST plug-ins are much easier to crack, and I can't help but wonder if that may be their reason for staying away from the platform. Of course, I may be wrong - I'm hardly a computer expert...don't know a darn thing about Direct-X, either...

 

I am, however, not into software piracy. I think using cracked software is stealing, and I am dismayed by the number of people who use it.

 

Besides, there's a pretty fair amount of folks using Pro-Tools and DP. I imagine that they do okay...

 

dB

[fv_dup1]

Hi Dave,

 

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

 

Actually, from what I understand, that might not be true. I hear that VST plug-ins are much easier to crack, and I can't help but wonder if that may be their reason for staying away from the platform. Of course, I may be wrong - I'm hardly a computer expert...don't know a darn thing about Direct-X, either...

 

 

I think that it is more simply the fact that more people are using VST and DirectX plugins than are using TDM or RTAS. The TDM and RTAS are cracked pretty much just as easily. More PT TDM users can afford the plugs so they generally buy (although there are some who don't). The Bomb Factory plugins have been cracked as well. I know a few people who have used them, me not being one of them since I don't use PT TDM nor PT LE.

 

 

I am, however, not into software piracy. I think using cracked software is stealing, and I am dismayed by the number of people who use it.

 

Besides, there's a pretty fair amount of folks using Pro-Tools and DP. I imagine that they do okay...

 

dB

 

It's a shame that there are so many people who do use cracked software. Until they make it impossible to crack plugins, it is not going to stop.

 

On another note, Dave, while I haven't heard the BF plugs myself, the Universal Audio Powered Plugins has LA-2A and 1176 plugins as well. They are supposedly even better than the BF plugins versions. I have heard them myself and think that they are outstanding. The EQ on the card doesn't do much for me but I may get that card simply for those plugs. RealVerb Pro comes as well but I have not spent a lot of time with it.

 

Have you checked out the UA card yet? Do you use a Mac? I believe that they have the Mac drivers and software coming out in the new year.

 

fv

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by fv:

On another note, Dave, while I haven't heard the BF plugs myself, the Universal Audio Powered Plugins has LA-2A and 1176 plugins as well. They are supposedly even better than the BF plugins versions.

 

That's funny - I've heard exactly the opposite...from more than one source...

 

I'd love to hear them both against each other, and against the real thing.

 

One thing's for sure - this plug-in thing is getting pretty serious (and I mean that in a good way). It's just amazing what can be done, and how little it costs to buy it.

 

B4 is still my favorite example...

 

dB

[fv_dup1]

Strange....

 

Oh well, looks like I should probably do the same. I do quite a bit of MIDI still so I probably won't be getting into PT LE (can't justify a TDM rig for my needs) just for these unless they are way better than the UAD-1 Powered Plugins card.

 

The LA-2A and 1176 on the UAD-1 do sound excellent though. The 1176 sounded more transparent to my ears. The LA-2A had a certain "buttery" quality to it. It was quite nice though and this was with some pretty extreme settings.

 

Oh well, as always, this simply proves that it's best to use one's ears.

 

fv

[Sergievsky]

I heard the UA card KILLS the Bomb Factory stuff, and the fact that the power comes from the PCI card and not your cpu is really making me drool. PT for the masses. Just wish they'd come out with the MAS/Mac version already.

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

I am, however, not into software piracy. I think using cracked software is stealing, and I am dismayed by the number of people who use it.

dB

 

I was wondering when this would addressed in the Forum. As a graphic designer I feel like I'm the one that's been stolen from.

 

A very good friend of mine is a full time musician with a good little bedroom studio. He has a nice selection

of keyboards & modules. His newest board is 3 yrs. old. But most of his stuff dates from the mid nineties. He's still using his RD300 as his main controller. He makes a good living.

 

As a graphic designer to remain competitve you have to be buying software constantly to remain competitve, both in designing & speed. Every year we do more work for the same money. Softwares allow us to do this. It gets faster & also allows us to do some pretty cool things. Imagine as musicians you had to buy a new keyboard every year to stay in the music business. Throw that guitar away, because this one allows you to play licks faster. As a designer you need, I'll list off what's on my machine, Quark Express, Photoshop, Illustrator, FreeHand, PowerRip for printing, Suitcase for font management, Distiller for making PDF's for client approval, Fetch to tie into FTP sites to send your files, Mac Links plus so you can receive the customer's PC files in what ever form they send them to you, Toast so you can store their files, Stuffit Deluxe so you can send their files without being corrupted in Linux or PC servers. DP costs $800 CAN, upgrade $400 CAN. But you can still use 2.0 & make your music. Hell, you can get a free Pro Tools LE! Quark Express costs $1,300 CAN, upgrade $999 CAN. Here in the office we share a printer that costs $3,700 CAN. To do that we use Ethernet. If we have the same Quark Express open on 2 machines, one won't work because of detection through Ethernet. So you have to buy another copy or disconnect from the network. Our accountant has said in the past, Gee you guys spend a lot of money on software. Yeah, tens of thousands of dollars! Now some software companies are reasonable, Photoshop costs $700 CAN, upgrade for $225. But Quark is a gouger. I've seen them when CD's were first on machines want an extra $100 if you want the software on CD. Then when CD's were finally happening, charge $25 if you still want the upgrade on floppies. And Quark Express is not a small company with a couple of software writers. Quark occupies 3 multi-story buildings in Seattle.

You have to use Quark because the printers use Quark to drive the imagesetters that turn your files into printed materials.

 

And another wonderful experience is happening. The software companies are on the update tread mill. The updates happen every year. Some are worth the up date, Photoshop as an example, most are not, Quark Express, Illustrator, FreeHand, Suitcase to name just a few. Most updates consist of now instead of one or two ways to do something, you can now do 20 different ways. Yeah that's handy. You don't know unless you take the time to try out the demo, you need high speed internet at $40/month or talk to someone who has already upgraded. And that's effective, because it's like a movie critic. This movie is a must see, the whole family will love it! And when you see the movie, you wonder what drugs he's smoking.

 

Now I know everyone says get out of the business or only upgrade what you have to. Tell that to this divorced mother of 2 that I just replaced as a freelancer. This magazine had her doing some freelance stuff. But she couldn't go fast or good enough. She was unfamiliar with the newer versions of softwares. Because of this she was making mistakes & her stuff looked flat. The magazine wanted me instead of her & didn't call her again. I had lunch with her, she was desperate for a job. It wasn't like she wasn't trying, she was taking a few courses. But this wasn't going to make up for repeated, hands on experience in the new softwares.

 

I will never pay for software again, I've been hosed enough. I'm just giving back what they've done to me. By the example I've given above, it's survival. I'm going to stay in the graphic design field because I do love it. We're not getting rich, but we make a living. Call me a thief, but before you start flame throwing make sure you've paid for every bit of software on your machine. Did you guys all send in checks for that shareware that you're using. Did you send a check to Win Zip? Are you sure you're not using a piece of software that came from a friend & you justify it as well he paid for it so it's OK? Those of you with older machines, did you pay for OS 9 or 9.2, or Winblows 2000 or did you get it from a friend who has a new machine & got it free with his machine?

 

So before you throw rocks, make sure your computer isn't made out of glass.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Sergievsky:

I heard the UA card KILLS the Bomb Factory stuff

 

Fascinating.

 

As I said, I've heard just the opposite; and, from more than one guy who actually have and use the real thing and have tested both sets of plug-ins. The most recent one that I can recall discussing it with was Fletcher - I spoke with him about it last week. I believe that he prefers the BF plugs, and he's one of the most knowledgeable and experienced gear junkies that I know...with a great set of ears to boot.

 

The funny thing is that you'd think that it'd be obvious that the UA guys would get it more right...

 

I've been playing with the BF plugs on and off all weekend. I continue to be severely impressed - especially with the Fairchild and the MoogerFoogers. Wow. The stuff just sounds terrific. Considering the price, I think it's a no-brainer.

 

Looks great, too...

 

dB

[Postman]

Originally posted by b_3guy:

So before you throw rocks, make sure your computer isn't made out of glass.

 

Ok, fine, just as long as when your clients don't pay you, and they say they won't ever pay for any graphic art again, you don't complain.

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by Postman:

 

Ok, fine, just as long as when your clients don't pay you, and they say they won't ever pay for any graphic art again, you don't complain.

 

I don't think you read or understood my ravings. I don't charge too much, hell I'm a bargain. With me you get big agency quality without the big agency price. Besides if you don't like the price, go elsewhere. With the industry standard softwares, you don't have a choice. You can't produce a printed piece in EasyDraw or some other cheap inexpensive software, that BTW does what the industry standard software does, because the filmhouse/printers don't know what to do with it. You have to get on their bandwagon & work with what they use. My product is WYSIWYG. The software manufacturers is smoke & mirrors & false promises. Some revisions are worth the upgrade, most are not. They release software that promises something, you purchase it, it doesn't do it, & they say they'll fix it in the next version, which is often next year or they abandon the idea. Comparing me to them is not fair. BTW, have you paid for all the software on your machine?

[Sergievsky]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

The most recent one that I can recall discussing it with was Fletcher - I spoke with him about it last week. I believe that he prefers the BF plugs, ...

The funny thing is that you'd think that it'd be obvious that the UA guys would get it more right...

 

dB

 

Ok, now I'm curious AND worried. I had extremely high hopes on the UA card, one of the main reasons I held off from buying the TC Powercore. Have any of you heard the new Vintage programs in the TC? Supposedly to enable it to compete better with the UA and Bomb Factory.

 

Anyway, I should have known that there would be conflicting opinions. Anyone who's been around these forums knows that's the way it is when dealing with recording equipment (unless of course you're talking about George's GML stuff...)

[Postman]

Originally posted by b_3guy:

BTW, have you paid for all the software on your machine?

 

Yes, I have, every last app. I work in the industry. It would be the height of hypocracy not to, don't you think? Besides, if I didn't, would that make piracy acceptable?

 

And yes, I did read your message. Your argument that the people who created the industry (computer graphics) are now parasites sucking the life out of it is highly creative, to say the least. Give me a break.

 

You know what? I think Kurzweil's charging too much for the 2600, so I'm going to walk into Guitar Center and explain to the manager that even though I feel I can't survive without one, I don't think the 2600 is much of an upgrade over my 2500. While they're busy scratching their heads over that contradiction, I'll go on to tell them I feel I'm entitled to just take one without paying for it. Is that cool with you? I wonder if the store would feel the same way.

 

You're rationalizing a crime. Software companies are laying people off by the thousands. Better them than you, eh?

 

[You can have the last word if you want. I think you know how I feel.]

 

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Postman ]

[shaifire]

this whole cracked thing messes with my mind. I'm always amazed when i read people who are just so crystal clear on the subject. surely, from a purely ethical perspective it's obvious that it's wrong. but on the other hand, it's just way too goddamn easy! it's not like i wouldn't buy the stuff if i could, but if i simply can't afford something and see it sitting right there, it's really really hard to pass that up. i'm not justifying it to myself, i know it's wrong....but i can't help it. i've wanted gear for years, but have never been able to afford it. now that it's being given away for free, i simply can't pass it up. the way i see it, the software companies would never get my money, because i don't have any. i know it's lame, but what can you do? it's just way too accesible and easy. it also burns me to pay 500 dollars (earned at 8/hr)which i have done, for something that i knew was being traded freely....

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by Postman:

Yes, I have, every last app. I work in the industry. It would be the height of hypocracy not to, don't you think? Besides, if I didn't, would that make piracy acceptable?

]

You're a good man. I know people in the industry that don't pay for anything. I think what some software companies do is a form of piracy or highway robbery. If a company has 5 Macs, it must but 5 copies of every software. After 5 you get a discount. Woo Hoo!!!

Your argument that the people who created the industry (computer graphics) are now parasites sucking the life out of it is highly creative, to say the least. Give me a break.]

There has been a graphic industry since the dawn of time. To say that software people created an industry is a being creative. Computer graphics is just another brush, pencil, tool. I didn't say they are sucking the life out of the industry.

You know what? I think Kurzweil's charging too much for the 2600, so I'm going to walk into Guitar Center and explain to the manager that even though I feel I can't survive without one, I don't think the 2600 is much of an upgrade over my 2500. While they're busy scratching their heads over that contradiction, I'll go on to tell them I feel I'm entitled to just take one without paying for it. Is that cool with you? I wonder if the store would feel the same way.

This is an oversimplification. If the 2600 is too much money there are a dozed alternatives that make great sounds. If I don't have Quark & Photoshop, I can't do my job. I've been told this by an agency that I was freelancing with. Quark files are a requirement to do ads for magazines. Customers have seen my Photoshop work & want me instead of someone who doesn't have Photoshop work. This are real examples. I have bought upgrades with false promises, "we'll fix that in the next upgrade", is the explanation. That's like buying a keyboard, that promises to allow you to play samples, you find out once you get it to a gig & it doesn't, you call your dealer looking for a refund, he says you took it out of the box (broke the sealed envelope), so he can't take it back. You'll have to buy another one next year to get that feature.

You're rationalizing a crime. Software companies are laying people off by the thousands. Better them than you, eh?

Yes, I'm rationalizing a crime. But I was ripped off in the first place & several times afterwards. See the above example. Yes I agree software companies are laying off people by the thousands, but it's not because of piracy. For several years the software companies have been living in a false economy. Online buying & internet presense has never lived up to its hype. The Dot com industry bubble has burst, the computer hardware industry has reached a plateau, the economy has slowed, & Sept.11 are the contributing factors, not piracy.

You can have the last word if you want. I think you know how I feel.

You're a gentleman. Agree to disagree?

[synthetic]

I'm not buying the argument that you have to steal software to make your graphic design business work. It's just like any other business: you come up with a plan that I spend X on materials every year, bill for Y, and end up with profit Z.

 

I co-own an audio post production studio. There are software requirements for that field too. I need Pro Tools, Digitranslator, lots of software to work in this field. I could easily justify that my clients need surround mixes, I can't afford to upgrade from 5.0 to 5.1, so I'll find it on a warez site in 10 minutes. Instead, I use crazy bussing and mixer sends to get the job done. I could justify that the Digi EQ sounds like ass, I need the Focusrite EQ plug-in to do my job, then get it on a warez site. Instead I pile 3 Digi EQs on top of each other to get the sound I want. I have too much respect for the manufacturers to steal their products.

 

If you have Quark 3.0 and someone needs a 4.0 document, I'm sure you could take the file to a service bureau and convert the file there. Sure, things may move around, but you can fix that while you're there. Hell, even Kinkos has Photoshop, and Quark too I think.

 

I think that desktop software costs so much because only 1 in 10 users actually pay for it. It will cost me $459 to get (the only) word processor for OSX (Office V.x), which seems 5x as much as it should be. I'll just have to think of it as an investment in my computer setup which will make money for me in the future.

 

-jl

[burningbusch]

I own a few BF plugins and think they're nifty. I've demoed the Spin/Chorus and don't think the Leslie emulation comes close to the B4's. The B4's chorus is also better, IMHO.

 

Busch.

[bleen]

Originally posted by synthetic:

...It will cost me $459 to get (the only) word processor for OSX (Office V.x), which seems 5x as much as it should be. I'll just have to think of it as an investment in my computer setup which will make money for me in the future.

-jl

 

Hey Synthetic, have you checked out AppleWorks v.6.2.2 for OSX? It'll open & write M$ Word & Excel docs. $79 - great stuff!

 

don

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by synthetic:

I'm not buying the argument that you have to steal software to make your graphic design business work. It's just like any other business: you come up with a plan that I spend X on materials every year, bill for Y, and end up with profit Z.

 

No, but it makes life easier. In the past we registered our softwares, upgraded with every software, until we realized this is stupid. Softwares kept coming out that a) weren't of any use to us, b) we couldn't afford it, c) were not any faster or ran any smoother than the previous version. In fact they were just more bloated & worked poorly on our slower machines. We went this way for a few years. Then we got some advise from a Mac consultant. Upgrade our OS's, upgrade this software. Things did in fact worked better. So which one to upgrade, which one to not, you tell me. Now demos are readily available, they weren't in the past, but they often don't have all the features working, or you can't save & have time limits. Too awkward to get a real assessment.

 

 

I co-own an audio post production studio. There are software requirements for that field too. I need Pro Tools, Digitranslator, lots of software to work in this field. I could easily justify that my clients need surround mixes, I can't afford to upgrade from 5.0 to 5.1, so I'll find it on a warez site in 10 minutes. Instead, I use crazy bussing and mixer sends to get the job done. I could justify that the Digi EQ sounds like ass, I need the Focusrite EQ plug-in to do my job, then get it on a warez site. Instead I pile 3 Digi EQs on top of each other to get the sound I want. I have too much respect for the manufacturers to steal their products.

 

Do you think I don't anything about work arounds? My machine is a 233mhz Powerbook that I got 2nd hand. When I first got it I ran for a year with 32 megs of ram & a 2 gig HD. I've produced world class publications with this machine. The local Mac store couldn't believe the work I produced on this machine. This ram & hard drive has been upgraded. But in the meantime I wore out the keyboard, CD rom module, & the power supply/sound card went. Perhaps the money I saved from buying stupid upgrades kept my machine going.

 

Originally posted by synthetic:

If you have Quark 3.0 and someone needs a 4.0 document, I'm sure you could take the file to a service bureau and convert the file there. Sure, things may move around, but you can fix that while you're there. Hell, even Kinkos has Photoshop, and Quark too I think.

There is neither the time or money to do this. The jobs are always late, you know all about it. The typical job starts when they send someone out to the warehouse to get the last bundle of brochures & they've already been used. Then it starts. Well if we're going to produce a new one, we have to update this section. Gee, we need new photography. We better have a meeting with that department. The job is already late.

Kinkos charges $28/hr. for computer rental. You can see that's is not a real solution. If I could afford that, I could upgrade all the softwares. I just came from a high end magazine where I was helping with production & ad creation. The machine I worked on was nice but interestingly enough, the softwares on this machine were not as good as the machine the Art Director worked on. When I asked about this they replied, well we have budgets. The scanner & the CD burner were also broken. So it's not a problem that just I have.

 

I think that desktop software costs so much because only 1 in 10 users actually pay for it. It will cost me $459 to get (the only) word processor for OSX (Office V.x), which seems 5x as much as it should be. I'll just have to think of it as an investment in my computer setup which will make money for me in the future.

Wrong. Any large printer, filmhouse, large design firm cannot afford to be caught will unlicensed software. The fines are huge. To buy Office V.x just because it's the only word processor available for OS X is bad business. Non of the music softwares run on OS X so why are you using OS X in the first place. This is a poor investment because it will never make you any money. Put the money towards the plugins you want. If they don't make you any money, they might make your production easier.

I have too much respect for the manufacturers to steal their products.

 

I have no respect for the software manufacturers. I've been lied to & cheated in the past. I've been involved with Macs & graphic design since 1987. All the experiences in this thread are real experiences. If they don't state that I've been ripped off I don't know what does. I have all the latest softwares but I don't even use them, until I have too. Most times the older version is either just fine or because of memory or hard drive allocation they are not worth the time to install. I must admit all the music softwares are very good, so good it doesn't matter which one you use. Perhaps if my experience was with these manufacturers, I would feel differently. ProTools, DP, Logic, & Cubase all seem like good stable apps. When they produce an upgrade, it's signifigent (spell), it works smoothly, & their minor upgrades are feature laden & free. Hopefully in their early years the product they produced was just as good.

 

Unlike QuarkExpress which their advertising says that it's a must have, you pay your $300 & it arrives on a floppy & it doesn't seem to give you anything more than a couple of extensions, which a year later are free to download from their site.

[Postman]

Originally posted by b_3guy:

Agree to disagree?

Sounds good to me.

[Postman]

Originally posted by b_3guy:

Agree to disagree?

Sounds good to me.

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by Postman:

Sounds good to me.

 

Done!

[Sergievsky]

Dave, how many Fairchilds or 1176 can you put up on, say 24 tracks, on your system? And what is your system? DP MAS Native?

 

Have you checked out their Pultec EQ yet?

[Dave Bryce]

Dave, how many Fairchilds or 1176 can you put up on, say 24 tracks, on your system?

 

Dunno - haven't tried more than two or three yet...I'll let you know as soon as I try something more ambitious.

 

And what is your system?[/b}

 

G4 450

 

DP MAS Native?

 

Yep.

 

Have you checked out their Pultec EQ yet?

 

No - I have a demo version, but I'm waiting until I do a full-blown project to initialize it. If it's anywhere near as good as the others, I'm gonna have to get that as well...

 

dB