dansouth Posted October 2, 2001 Author Share Posted October 2, 2001 AH, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Okay, now that we've all had a good laugh, let's try the comparison again with the teams held constant. Michael in Kobe's position on the Lakers equals the best team in history. Kobe on the Bulls equals some playoff appearances, but NO WAY THEY WOULD HAVE WON SIX TITLES. Maybe one. Probably not even that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Klopmeyer Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Originally posted by steadyb: Yeah, and Space Jam was a documentary. LMAO! That's the funniest thing I've read on the Musicplayer forums since that thread some guy put up about cat puke. - Jeff Marketing Communications for MI/Pro Audio My solo music and stuff They Stole My Crayon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meccajay Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Thanks dansouth & magpel for the clarity, I think he FINALLY gets it now.... TROLL . . . ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Originally posted by meccajay: Thanks dansouth & magpel for the clarity, I think he FINALLY gets it now.... Keep hatin', Laker haters. I haven't even brought up that Magic joined a mediocre Lakers team and won a title his rookie year, 5 titles in 10, and 8 Finals appearances in 10. Oh yeah, that was during a time when the league was actually competitive, as opposed to Michael's 6 watered down titles. (and the win vs the Lakers was without Magic or Byron Scott). Face it you guys, Michael Jordan is the most overrated player ever, and benefited tremendously from what Magic and Bird did to save the league, as well as the help of ESPN. He should have left well enough alone and enjoyed his 6 titles while playing in the "B" league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meccajay Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 3 Points(count em) 1) When Magic joined the Lakers it was Kareem's team...BTW wasnt he the NBA alltime leading scorer?? curious... 2) When Kobe won his title it was AND IS STILL Shaq's team... and C):-) If Michael joins ANY team it's Michael's team - period!!! ***Russell's Celtics being the ONLY exception*** . . . U-C Steadyb, you dont even get the central point, which is - IT AINT EVEN KOBE'S TEAM!!! sorry bout the bad news. TROLL . . . ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Originally posted by meccajay: 3 Points(count em) 1) When Magic joined the Lakers it was Kareem's team Kareem was about to retire (with one ring) until Magic arrived. Magic added 10 years to Jabbar's career (hence the scoring record) 2) When Kobe won his title it was AND IS STILL Shaq's team... Like I said Kobe's only been in the league 5 years and is better than Jordan was after the same 5 years. and C):-) If Michael joins ANY team it's Michael's team - period!!! ***Russell's Celtics being the ONLY exception*** Really? It seems the Lakers who won 33 IN A ROW was Wilt's team. . . . U-C Steadyb, you dont even get the central point, which is - IT AINT EVEN KOBE'S TEAM!!! Actually, you don't seem to get the central point (and it ain't about Kobe), Michael is overrated and should stay on the golf course. He's only coming back for the money. Sorry to break it to you (again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Now I'm not a big Jordon fan (although I know he is the best to ever play the game at his position, probably any position). I'm also not a big Kobe fan, although I respect his talent also. I would like to make one big point in comparing these two athletes. Kobe has something that Michael did not have. He had Michael Jordon to watch as an example of how the game is suppose to be played. Kobe has emulated Michaels game, his moves, his jump shot, his fade away, the whole thing. I think that is one of the reasons that Kobe is ahead of where Michael was at his age. Michael elevated the way basketball should be played and others have that to learn from and move towards. Yea I know that Michael had mentors also, but he raised the bar. Peace, Fletch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meccajay Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Thanks Fletch, I think WE realize that makes him Michael jr - Not Michael!! BTW who says Kobe will even finish with more than 4 rings?? Shaq might just leave after a year or 2 more....Ooops. And Steadyb I kinda agree with your point about Wilt, I also agree with the last statement about how Michael should be relaxing on the golf coure, I certainly agree with that!! See...I understand you are an intellegent fan, just a bit hung up on Laker's. Was it Paula Abdul who swayed you way back when?? **laughing** TROLL . . . ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpel Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Love it! Basketball talk in the middle of football season with the baseball playoffs around the corner! I enjoy Steady's protestations because they are well defended and bball savvy. Still, arguing against Jordan's greatness seems to me a fool's pursuit, with clearly extra-athletic motivation (revisionist history). Not a Bulls fan nor especially a Jordan fan, I think Micahel is the greatest player ever insofar as any argument like that can be made. My reason is not so much his physical ability but his unfailing will and mental dominance of the competition. I ain't no media-hype victim. I'm a serious fan who watched it again and again, my sentiment turning from intial amazement to fatigue and boredom with his dominance and finally back to a wizened amazement. I can only assume that Steadyb tuned out during those disappointing Nick Van Exel Elden Campbell Del Harris years and chose to follow the CBA or World League Football instead. His argument seems to be based on untold future championships that he and he alone has already awarded to Kobe, vapor rings if you will. Granted, I'm a tad too young to have seen anything but the lukewarm final years of Wilt and Oscar Robertson, and I'd say those are the other chief candidates for the job of greatest. As far as level of competition goes, yes, the 80s were something very special with two of the greatest all-time teams around concurrently (and a bunch of worthy 3rd bests including the Sixers in the early 80s and the Pistons in the late). But the one thing you can't influence is the quality of your competition. So, quality of comp. is a plus for Magic and Bird, but can not be a negative for Michael, nor for Kobe and the "Ubiquitous McShaq"-- eight flamed broiled patties with Bacon, swiss, muenster, cheddar, sausage, ham, and sushi on texas toast battered and fried. As to the assertion that Kobe is more advanced at this stage than Michael was, perhaps, but so what? We're talking about where Micahel ended up, not where he was at each stage along the way. You say this is if it were incontrovertible evidence that Kobe will therefore surpass Micahel. Kobe is enjoying a phase in his career in which his physical ability is at its peak and he's finally removed some of the more erratic and undisciplined elements of his game, and when he's finally, maybe temporarily, learned that having Shaq around gives him a unique luxury and freedom and saves him from the physical abuse Micahel took throughout his career (Phil Jackson's point, not mine). Let's see if Kobe's winning multiple rings when his athletic skills are on the decline, as Micahel did. All in good sport, John. Check out the Sweet Clementines CD at bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Originally posted by Magpel: Still, arguing against Jordan's greatness seems to me a fool's pursuit, with clearly extra-athletic motivation (revisionist history). Not a Bulls fan nor especially a Jordan fan, I think Micahel is the greatest player ever insofar as any argument like that can be made. My reason is not so much his physical ability but his unfailing will and mental dominance of the competition. I ain't no media-hype victim. The fact that Michael Jordan is the leading beneficiary of the ESPN hype machine is proven in it's ridiculous ESPN's "Century's Greatest Athlete's" ranking, putting MJ at #1. Michael Jordan above Babe Ruth???...Jim Brown???...Muhammed Ali???...Wayne Gretzky???...Jim Thorpe???...Pele??? Why do you think that is??? OK, I'll tell you... All of those athletes are either retired or dead. Therefore they sell no shoes, Gatorade, or underwear. Each of the 6 above listed athletes defined greatness in the sports they participated in. Babe Ruth was so great that his name became the definition of greatness in any field..."The Babe Ruth of..." Where as MJ followed Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Dr. J, Larry Bird and Magic. Don't feel bad Magpel, you are only one of many media hype victims. I'm a serious fan who watched it again and again, my sentiment turning from intial amazement to fatigue and boredom with his dominance and finally back to a wizened amazement. Against what competition??? Charles Barkley? Reggie Miller? Patrick Ewing? Please. Put Michael in a league against the 80's Lakers, Celtics, or Pistons and how many titles does he win? (Oh wait, we already did that.)The answer...ZERO. I can only assume that Steadyb tuned out during those disappointing Nick Van Exel Elden Campbell Del Harris years and chose to follow the CBA or World League Football instead. No actually I was still rooting hard for the Lakers as I have been since I was 6 years old (1969) His argument seems to be based on untold future championships that he and he alone has already awarded to Kobe, vapor rings if you will. No, it's based on the 7 championships the Los Angeles Lakers have already won, and the other 5 they won first in Minneapolis. Granted, I'm a tad too young to have seen anything but the lukewarm final years of Wilt and Oscar Robertson, and I'd say those are the other chief candidates for the job of greatest. As far as level of competition goes, yes, the 80s were something very special with two of the greatest all-time teams around concurrently (and a bunch of worthy 3rd bests including the Sixers in the early 80s and the Pistons in the late). But the one thing you can't influence is the quality of your competition. So, quality of comp. is a plus for Magic and Bird, but can not be a negative for Michael, nor for Kobe and the "Ubiquitous McShaq" It can be when someone is so ridiculously being worshipped as the greatest of all time. As to the assertion that Kobe is more advanced at this stage than Michael was, perhaps, but so what? We're talking about where Micahel ended up, not where he was at each stage along the way. You say this is if it were incontrovertible evidence that Kobe will therefore surpass Micahel. Kobe is enjoying a phase in his career in which his physical ability is at its peak and he's finally removed some of the more erratic and undisciplined elements of his game, and when he's finally, maybe temporarily, learned that having Shaq around gives him a unique luxury and freedom and saves him from the physical abuse Micahel took throughout his career (Phil Jackson's point, not mine). Let's see if Kobe's winning multiple rings when his athletic skills are on the decline, as Micahel did. Take away Pippen (for the first 3 titles) and Jordan wins maybe 1 ring. Take away Pippen and Rodman (for the second 3), and he wins none. Those guys did all the grunt work while ball hog Jordan grabbed the glory. That's why it took him 7 years to win his first ring, as opposed to the completely unselfish Magic who did it in his first year. Magic chose to win NBA titles instead of scoring titles. Michael wasn't quite that quick. All in good sport, John. Me too. I love you guys, but you're all on crack. Go Lakers!!! This message has been edited by steadyb on 10-03-2001 at 11:53 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpel Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Great response, steadyb. I do bristle a bit at the accusation that I've been manipulated by ESPN and Nike into robotic adulation of Jordan. The business of sports is dirty, petty, superficial, pandering. Ah, but the games themselves are pure. No amount of hype covers your ass on the floor. You know, My brother went to see Mick Taylor play a few years ago. Said he was drunk stupid and incompetent on the guitar. But he was Mick Taylor, so of course many people thought he was cooking. Can't do that in sports, I'm afraid. Reputations don't get anything done. So I still don't know exactly what you were looking at during the Bulls six championship runs. I saw Jordan engineering a level of dominance that hasn't even really seemed possible since the end of the Russell/Cousy Celtic era, in any sport (until, more recently, my beloved Yankees have revitalized the idea that "dynasty" means more than 2 in a row). As I say, your Lakers are doing quite well. Right there with the Pistons and Rockets, and only one ring away from being precisely half as good as Michael Jordan. John Check out the Sweet Clementines CD at bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpel Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Oh, and in his defense, Shaq is *every bit as good* a rapper/actor as Jordan was a baseball player. Check out the Sweet Clementines CD at bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Originally posted by Magpel: Oh, and in his defense, Shaq is *every bit as good* a rapper/actor as Jordan was a baseball player. My 7 year old and I watched "Steel" the other day on cable and quite enjoyed it. (especially the scene where Shaq has to throw a grenade through a small opening in a fence to save himself and the kid with him..."I can't shoot free throws" ...but of course he makes it through.) Only in the movies. We liked Space Jam too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meccajay Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Steadyb, I love your enthusiasm. . . . for Shaq's team!! TROLL . . . ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Originally posted by Magpel: I do bristle a bit at the accusation that I've been manipulated by ESPN and Nike into robotic adulation of Jordan. Not you necessarily. I'm just saying it was lame of ESPN to put Jordan above the other athletes I mentioned (Ruth, Gretzky, Ali, etc.) Definitely some corporate string pulling going on behind the scenes. As I say, your Lakers are doing quite well. Right there with the Pistons and Rockets, and only one ring away from being precisely half as good as Michael Jordan. I think you meant to say that the Jordan Bull's with their 6 titles are precisely half as good as the Lakers who now have 12 championships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meccajay Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 <> Whaaa??? Okay let''s see, Jordan had 6 championship's which equal 1 M.J. era. Lakers have had 12 which were over done over HOW MANY ERA'S???? Does this go back to the 19th century Steady?? Just curious! TROLL . . . ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Originally posted by meccajay: <> Whaaa??? Okay let''s see, Jordan had 6 championship's which equal 1 M.J. era. Lakers have had 12 which were over done over HOW MANY ERA'S???? Does this go back to the 19th century Steady?? Just curious! The Bulls have 6 NBA titles, period. They won't win any more. The Lakers have 12 NBA titles, and counting. The Bulls won their 6 titles during a particularly weak era in the NBA, when they happened to have the best player in the league (AT THAT TIME), and no real competition. The Lakers have won titles through all eras of the NBA against some of the all time best players in NBA history. The Bulls were a fluke. The Lakers are a basketball dynasty that will soon pass the Celtics for most NBA titles, plus we have the Laker girls, and Jack Nicholson...sorry if "...you can't handle the truth..." Jorday (as some might call him), or Jordan fans, as well as Bulls fans, will have to settle for living in the past because neither will ever win another title. Laker fans, on the other hand, will enjoy watching many more NBA titles and parades for years to come and still be able to head out for a nice day at the beach, even in October...November...December...January...February... The only title you'll see Jordan win anytime soon will be Gatorade employee of the month, or maybe a nice plaque at the yearly Nike sales dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meccajay Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Who cares if the Bulls never win any more titles. If the owner Kraus wasnt such an ashole he would have kept the team together when they had a chance and Jordon would be enjoying his 8th chanpionship and last year would have been his Swan's song not an aged return THIS year!! It's what the Bulls/kraus deserve. . not Bulls fans! As for the Lakers, cant deny it took just 1 Jordan dynasty to complete 1/2 of The entire Lakers history. . . and Jordan missed 5 - count em 5 years of his career!!! TROLL . . . ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Originally posted by meccajay: As for the Lakers, cant deny it took just 1 Jordan dynasty to complete 1/2 of The entire Lakers history. . . and Jordan missed 5 - count em 5 years of his career!!! I hate to break it to you, but if Magic hadn't been run out of the league by AIDS-phobic morons like Karl Malone and others, The Lakers would have gotten two, maybe three more titles. So let's not talk about what would've happened during the "baseball years". Keep praying to your circa 1993 Bulls poster, and make sure to get your very own DVD copy of Space Jam, put on your Nikes and your Hanes, and pour yourself a tall glass of Gatorade. Meanwhile, I'll kick back and enjoy the next several Laker titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meccajay Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Ahh yes, the Magic thing, granted, he too was cheated from a few years - BUT NOT A FEW TITLES!!! He would have played more and fans would have enjoyed it, but he would never have beaten gotten past Jordan....Oooops, Im sorry, Magic did play Mike - and got his ass whipped!!! The Van Exel years, dare you bring that up????!!! TROLL . . . ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpel Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 I give up. I am beaten. Three cheers and mucho props to Steadyb for this unabashed one-man defense/assault. I love it, I really do. Sports is one of the few areas of opinion where we can act like this and later say no harm/no foul. The man loves his Lakers like I love my Yanks/Giants/Orangemen. And his arguments are an eloquent hoot. Nothing to do now but sit back and watch: A) The Raiders blow it late in the season per usual B) The Lakers implode over endorsement disputes C) The Dodgers move back to Brooklyn D) Michael miss the season with assortment of injuries E) Yanks defy the odds and bring home another one This is also the beauty of UBB, where we sports-freak musicians can carry on without even impinging much on the "eye share" of normal people. John Check out the Sweet Clementines CD at bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Originally posted by Magpel: Nothing to do now but sit back and watch: A) The Raiders blow it late in the season per usual Awwww, John - now why do you wanna go there? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Originally posted by meccajay: Oooops, Im sorry, Magic did play Mike - and got his ass whipped!!! Not quite. The Lakers won game one, and then lost both Magic and Byron Scott in game two both for the rest of the series. But nice try. Like I said Jordan always did well as long as he didn't face any real competition. If Magic and Scott play the entire series healthy, the Bulls wouldn't have won a single game. (and you know it.) It would've been one more year of schooling, while he waited for Magic to eventually retire. Jordan = OVERRATED Live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Originally posted by meccajay: The Van Exel years, dare you bring that up????!!! I've rooted for the Lakers for 33 years strait, (like the NBA record 33 wins in a row) including the Van Exel/Vlade/Eddie Jones years. Are you suggesting you only rooted for the Bulls during Jordan's 6 title years??? Ouch, talk about your fair weather fan!!! Not the kind of support I'm looking for when the going gets tough. Do you only like your friends on your birthday??? ...only if you get a really good present??? I think you've exposed a part of yourself better left covered up. Don't worry though meccajay, I've got your back, and yes, you can count on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Originally posted by Magpel: E) Yanks defy the odds and bring home another one John I hate to open another possible can of worms before I've finished off mecca... But unfortunately for Yanks fans, The 2001 Seattle Mariners are going to win The 2001 World Series. You read it here first. (Yeah I know I'm walking into a flamethrower) steadyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpel Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Originally posted by Dave Bryce: Awwww, John - now why do you wanna go there? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif dB Sorry Dave. I was just trying to get one more dig in at Steady, but now I seem to recall he's a Seahawks fan? Oh well. My inexplicable dislike of the Raiders is a matter of public record, but there is no doubt they are a very strong team this year, Gruden is one of the top young coaches, and Jerry Rice is the greatest, though I'm sure Steadyb will find a way to dispute this and place Largent on top of the list. Raiders are one of three or four legitimate contenders in the AFC, I'd guess. And, as a NY Giants fan, I tend to believe you're in for a happier year than I am. Come to think of it, I've always been a fan of Rich Gannon too. I guess the reason I dislike them is the big man and the big man alone. Check out the Sweet Clementines CD at bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Originally posted by Magpel: Jerry Rice is the greatest, though I'm sure Steadyb will find a way to dispute this and place Largent on top of the list. No, Rice is the greatest (although I hate that he is now a Raider, he should have just retired). But at the time, it was cool that he (Largent) was the first to reach 100 receiving TD's. And considering he's just a slow white guy, his receiving accomplishments are amazing. Being a native and lifelong Los Angeleno, I also have been a Ram fan since I was a kid. Glad to see they're back on track. (Hey! Remember the 90's???) 99 losses in 10 years...Ouch babe!!! ...and I mean that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpel Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Yep, and nobody took more crushing hits than Largent, which I guess explains his politics...Then McCaffery came around and set a new standard for taking hits. Talk about your ouch. I suppose he'll be on a ticket with Pat Buchanan soon. Hey man, Rice can still play. No surpise given his Spartan conditioning regimen. With Rice and Cris Carter, we're witnessing the dusk of two extraordinary careers, Carter's all the more amazing considering what a rascal and rowdy he was early in his career, before Jesus intervened. Originally posted by steadyb: No, Rice is the greatest (although I hate that he is now a Raider, he should have just retired). But at the time, it was cool that he (Largent) was the first to reach 100 receiving TD's. And considering he's just a slow white guy, his receiving accomplishments are amazing. Being a native and lifelong Los Angeleno, I also have been a Ram fan since I was a kid. Glad to see they're back on track. (Hey! Remember the 90's???) 99 losses in 10 years...Ouch babe!!! ...and I mean that. Check out the Sweet Clementines CD at bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Originally posted by Magpel: ...before Jesus intervened. His high school coach??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meccajay Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 1st of all Steadyb - I aint goin nowhere, I'll be here til kingdom come...this is fuuuuuuun!! Secondly, you couldnt possibly "finish me off" with inacurate 'facts' or better put, made up shit....as I recall - Magic had a triple double in game FIVE of the series so he couldnt possibly be OUT for the series in game 2. He had something like- 20 assists, 16 points and 11 rebounds. Jordan had 30 points, but it was THE JOHN PAXTON GAME as history remember's. I may be a 'football' man, but I know some thangs. ...as said I before, Magic got his ass whipped - Just like you just did!! TROLL . . . ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.