Guest Posted August 11, 2001 Share Posted August 11, 2001 Heres a fun game....guess the live performance.... edited edited Interested to hear what you guys have to say! Donnie Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bardstown Audio Posted August 11, 2001 Share Posted August 11, 2001 Donnie, I am going to say the second one, though they both sound pretty darn good to me! Kip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobro Posted August 11, 2001 Share Posted August 11, 2001 I prefer the second one hands down, so I guess it's the live one- I would be impressed and pleased, make that thoroughly stoked, if the second one is the samples. The first one doesn't have the darkness and the "zhzzzz" I like to hear and the percussion is tuned more musically in the second one, IMO. Anyway, very nice! Tests are fun. -CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 11, 2001 Share Posted August 11, 2001 hmm....very interesting....anxious to hear what others have to say Donnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkipp Posted August 11, 2001 Share Posted August 11, 2001 It's very close, but I'll also say the second one. They both sound great, when you let us know which is live, let us know how it sounds so good! --Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted August 12, 2001 Share Posted August 12, 2001 Yep the second one. Very cool stuff. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_3guy Posted August 12, 2001 Share Posted August 12, 2001 I would say the 2nd one because of the cymbal build, but the others sound, the bells, etc. sound more lifelike in the 1st. Steve www.seagullphotodesign.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WFTurner Posted August 12, 2001 Share Posted August 12, 2001 #1 ------------------ William F. Turner Songwriter turnermusic William F. Turner Songwriter turnersongs Sometimes the truth is rude... tough shit... get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 12, 2001 Share Posted August 12, 2001 My guess is that #1 is samples and #2 is live. On #1 the soundstage is wider, more exaggerated. Some instruments, such as the bells, have the clarity that comes from close micing. On example #2, the soundstage is more collapsed, but it sounds more like they are all in the same room. There is a certain lack of clarity in the instruments that makes it sound as though it was recorded some distance away with a pair of mics. Then again, as a life-long Coke (Diet Coke) drinker, I chose Pepsi in the shootout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llarion Posted August 12, 2001 Share Posted August 12, 2001 There is a more "natural" depth-of-field in the 2nd one, and the first one sounds "colder", like a really sterile preamp. Because of those factors, I choose #2 as live. ------------------ Cheers! Phil "Llarion: The Jazzinator" Traynor www.mp3.com/llarion Smooth Jazz Cheers! Phil "Llarion: The Jazzinator" Traynor www.llarion.com Smooth Jazz - QUESTION AUTHORITY. Go ahead, ask me anything. http://www.llarion.com/images/dichotomybanner.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobro Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 My partner Bernarda took the test (didn't show her the previous reactions) and her assesment was similar to mine and remarkably similar to Llarion's: "#1 is colder and one-colored, number two sounds like it's real in a real room" So that's another vote for #2 being the "live" one, and another vote for both sounding very good, regardless of which is which. -CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Either track could be live, depending on how you mic'd and recorded them. In the first one, all the instruments are very well placed, and very clear. The second one certainly has a much more obvious room ambience. I'm going to go against the flow though, and say that the first one is the live one, because I think all of the instruments are imaged better in #1 - more lifelike as B_3guy also observed. There is a bit too much isolation on the second piece, and I think that the tubular bells are a little too dull and set back, considering the obvious recording skills shown here. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Thanks for all the great comments and guesses....however the answer is.....drum roll please........they are BOTH sampled sequences!! Here's how I did it..... A: the samples are from a new library we have coming out (we considered this a "beta" test) B: I did a midi sequence and used several of th instruments (ie. 16 Zildjian Constantinople, 18 x 40 Ludwig bass drum etc.) C: I then went back and re-recorded the same sequence but replaced the instruments with like ones (ie. 18 Sabian HH orch., 16 x 36 Yamaha bass drum etc.) and humanized the sequence a little more. D: I simply applied to different reverb settings to the sequences with a bit more "noise" on the second one. Thank you all for answering. We are trying to create the most realistic library to date in any genre. Donnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Fortner Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 They're both sampled. So why then would your original post suggest that one is indeed live? "Guess the live performance" vs. "Which sounds more like a live performace?" The latter would've gotten you just as candid and thoughtful replies on this forum. If your marketing tactics include saying something is live when it isn't, try setting up a card table in a Guitar Center. Stephen Fortner Principal, Fortner Media Former Editor in Chief, Keyboard Magazine Digital Piano Consultant, Piano Buyer Magazine Industry affiliations: Antares, Arturia, Giles Communications, MS Media, Polyverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Steve, Believe me no harm was meant....I needed to say that one was real and was wasn't. If I had come on and said they are both sampled then there's no guess work involved. My apologies if any was/is offended by my post....we are just trying to make a heck of library. Sincerely, Donnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Sorry Donnie, but I'm with Dr. Fortner on this one. First of all, I do not support advertising on this forum. Next, I do not like being deceived, and inviting people to "guess the live performance" when there is no live one is deceitful, plain and simple. Further, I would like to add that I object to your attempt to classify this as a "beta test". Using people as involuntary "beta-testers" while providing them with misleading information is no way to collect any sort of reliable results. If it were a real test, there would have been a real live track. You set this up so that there was no way for you to lose here. That's marketing, not beta-testing. I do not think that this was done with any sort of malice in mind - nonetheless, I still find it distasteful. I'd appreciate it if you would not use our forum for this purpose again. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod S Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Steve, I think you're overreacting a bit; he wasn't trying to sell us anything (yet http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif) I did believe the question let us better evaluate which had more of a live feeling without a pre conceived notion of what it should sound like. After the 'contest' was over, he was open about what they really were. Hey, can keyboard corner members get a discount on the sample libraries? Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Motif ES Rack / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / SE-05 / Jupiter Xm / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II MBP-LOGIC American Deluxe P-Bass, Yamaha RBX760 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Steve, I think you're overreacting a bit; he wasn't trying to sell us anything (yet http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif) Sorry to disagree with you, brother Rod - I believe that this was an attempt to impress us with the quality of his samples, and entice us into learning more about them. Hey, can keyboard corner members get a discount on the sample libraries? See what I mean? dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod S Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Dave - I did see your original comment. My apologies if I was out of line. As a moderator, you have the right to establish what should and should not be posted here. Now that I think about it again, I do appreciate seeing manufacturers getting feedback for products (which is how I had seen it), but they need to let people know when people are being 'beta-testers'. Please ignore my posting regarding the discount, as it reflects my personal opinion only. Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Motif ES Rack / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / SE-05 / Jupiter Xm / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II MBP-LOGIC American Deluxe P-Bass, Yamaha RBX760 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Dave - I did see your original comment. My apologies if I was out of line. No problem, Rod - you're always free to express your opinion here. That's why we have the no-advertising policy - because when I polled forum members on the subject, the response was overwhelmingly against it. As a moderator, you have the right to establish what should and should not be posted here. Like I said - I'm just trying to represent the desires of the people who post here. Now that I think about it again, I do appreciate seeing manufacturers getting feedback for products (which is how I had seen it), but they need to let people know when people are being 'beta-testers'. Agreed. At the very least, they should not unfairly weight the test so that they can't lose...like I said - that ain't beta-testing, it's marketing. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/mad.gif As always, thanks for your candor, and your participation. Party on, Wayne... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Let me say again....I am sorry if anyone was offended by my test. I did not mean to make anyone angry. I just did not want to bias anyone's opinion. If I had come on and said "ok, here's two sampled pieces, which one sounds better" then that would have not told me what I wanted to know. I wanted to know could they pass as real live recorded players. Again, I am sorry if this offended anyone. Having said that let me say one other thing. Some people, amature or pro, do not like to be wrong in a public situation. My example did just that to everyone. I'm not saying that being cocky but it did. If someone had posted a Miroslav brass piece and a live Canadian brass piece could you have heard difference? Of course you could have! If the above paragraph did not pertain to you then please disregard it. Thanks, Donnie This message has been edited by DS Soundware on 08-13-2001 at 01:34 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 I also noticed that you edited my original post and took off my examples.....was that REALLY neccesary?????? Donnie This message has been edited by DS Soundware on 08-13-2001 at 01:42 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Donnie, first of all, you've created some very nice sample libraries, but you should leave it at that. You seem to be implying that you've broken some new ground in realism (in that Miroslav's brass doesn't cut it, but your stuff does). It is significantly easier to pull off realistic percussion examples than ones based on expressive, lyrical instruments (trumpet, sax, guitar, violin, etc.). With these instruments, connecting individual samples into a convincing musical phrase is VERY difficult (close to impossible) to pull off. Especially if it's in an exposed setting. In your example, you use a cymbal roll which undoubtedly was recorded as a complete phrase. Now there is no difference between a sample of a cymbal roll and a "live" cymbal roll. They are both recordings of a guy doing a cymbal roll, i.e. the phrase. By the same token, if we had heard samples of a sax player playing phrases, they too would have been indistinguishable from a recording of a live player. I've heard many examples of sampled instruments (especially percussion/drums) that sounded extremely realistic. This is not uncharted territory by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 burningbush, I merely used the Miroslav brass thing as a "for instance". You can subsitute any library you like in there. As far as percussion being easier I'm sorry but thisis pet peeve of mine. As someone who has played percussion for quite sometime and is working on his doctorate I've heard for years how easy it is to play drums and record them. I really trying hard NOT to sound "goodie" but I'd be happy to send you the midi file I used and have you substitue any other libary in it's place. I can promise you that you won't come close to the results we got. Please understand I'm not trying to throw my sounds around like they are the best BUT I DO think that we HAVE broken new ground with what we are doing. I am a person who takes things for what they are worth and anyone who has worked with sampled "anything" knows that this is a different ball game. Heck, we had everyoe fooled here that they both were real....even the moderators! Donnie This message has been edited by DS Soundware on 08-13-2001 at 04:09 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WFTurner Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 >>guess the live performance....<< It's always been said data from polls/surveys can be twisted and turned to convey any image the pollster wants to convey. You succeeded in proving this point. Point is people are busy and taking a poll/survey/test is a quick distraction with which they quickly waste a few moments of time evaluating a given situation within the parameters of the proposed question. In haste to get back to what is really important to them, they're not gonna give any thought to anything other than the parameters of the question asked. That's human nature. The tracks sounded great but had small yet significant differences. The question suggested that one was live so each listener chose one as live. A choice was made according to the parameters of the question. This has been a great poll for you for you've created a wonderful market ploy for yourself.... ie... "a prestigious forum of people dedicated to music" couldn't tell they we're sampled. However, it was the question and the lack of parameters to reach any other desired result not the samples themselves that has achieved your end result. No matter how good the samples may seem, they seem very good, the deceit negates any and all fascination I might have had with them. Time to move on too more useful threads. Added note: Of course if you really wanted to capitalize on the masquarade you tried to pull here you might have thrown this test across all of the MP forums, especially the engineering and producing forums where there's quite a base of knowledgable and prestigious people. If you wanted a true guage of the value of your work you might have fielded a properlly worded poll to the same group of people. Then you might truly have something huh? ------------------ William F. Turner Songwriter turnermusic This message has been edited by WFTurner on 08-13-2001 at 09:14 AM William F. Turner Songwriter turnersongs Sometimes the truth is rude... tough shit... get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Originally posted by DS Soundware: Heck, we had everyone fooled here that they both were real....even the moderators! This quote just reinforces my point about this whole thing being about marketing spin. Moderators? Where? I am the only moderator that responded to your little travesty. Plus, I find it extremely interesting that you are now spinning it that you "had everyone fooled" into thinking that both examples were "real"... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif You fooled us because you deceived us - you don't seem to get that, do you? Read what Mr. Turner had to say above - he pretty much hit the nail on the head. We were operating under the assumption that you were telling the truth and that one of your examples was, in fact, live. You may feel free to continue congratulating yourself if you wish, but frankly I'm not that impressed. Any decent engineer can fake ambience. You'd have impressed me if you had had the guts to actually post a live recording, instead of misleading the people on this forum. Originally posted by DS Soundware: I also noticed that you edited my original post and took off my examples.....was that REALLY neccesary?????? You bet it was. I dislike ads, and I dislike deception, and I WILL NOT support either in this forum. To further enforce this point, this entire thread will be deleted this evening. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Do what you will but let me go on the record for saying two things: 1. I have not EVER "marketed" my product on this page. Heck, I didn't even say it WAS a new product. I just said that they were new samples that I was working on. No where did I say "hey come check out my site" or "for sale soon" or "you don't want to miss this one!!". Nope, never did I do this. Besides except for the first post I didn't even post my link to my site! 2. Now this is the point YOU seem to miss. I'll be you any amount of money that if someone came on here and tried to pass ANY other sample library as real then everyone could spot it in a minute. Even "in a hurry" as the other guy said. Certain personalities hate being fooled or made to look like they don't know everything and I should have realized this----thats my mistake. However you can't take the fact away that the samples fooled everyone. Donnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_3guy Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Man, this is really turning into some bullshit. By the way you presented this "test" fooled everyone into thinking that something in these 2 MP3's were real. I hope Dave deletes you as well as the thread. Steve www.seagullphotodesign.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_3guy Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 Man, this is really turning into some bullshit. By the way you presented this "test" fooled everyone into thinking that something in these 2 MP3's were real. I hope Dave deletes you as well as the thread. Steve www.seagullphotodesign.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted August 13, 2001 Share Posted August 13, 2001 I have not EVER "marketed" my product on this page. Heck, I didn't even say it WAS a new product. I just said that they were new samples that I was working on. No where did I say "hey come check out my site" or "for sale soon" or "you don't want to miss this one!!". Nope, never did I do this. Oh? So you're saying that you're not selling anything? Really? Then what was the point of this little "beta test", hmm? Just trying to get opinions on your own personal work made for your own personal project? You sure that you wanna stick with that? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/confused.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif Besides except for the first post I didn't even post my link to my site! Yeah - only on the opening post at the top of the thread - the one that everyone who enters the thread sees first. Hmmm... That's why I edited that post. No more URL, no more ad. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif Now this is the point YOU seem to miss. I'll be you any amount of money that if someone came on here and tried to pass ANY other sample library as real then everyone could spot it in a minute. Nonsense. Not if misrepresented in the same way. We fell for your trick because we believed your test was honest - that's all. You lied - we bought it. Nicely done. You should be proud. Also, are you saying that you're the first person to make realistic samples? Gimme a serious break. They're percussion samples, unlooped, with apparently no keymaps or velocity crosses. That's about the easiest kind of sampling there is. What exactly are you trying to show off - your micing technique? If you want to really impress me, let me hear a stereo, keymapped multi-strike piano sample you've done. Oh yeah - and have the courtesy to identify your intentions beforehand, if you're actually in search of valid opinions. Certain personalities hate being fooled or made to look like they don't know everything and I should have realized this----thats my mistake. Too funny.... Your mistake is thinking that you fooled anyone but yourself, sir. "Live or Memorex"? What a crock. However you can't take the fact away that the samples fooled everyone. Yeah, sure Don...whatever you say... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif Thanks for stopping by. dB "Never try and teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time, and annoys the pig." ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.