jeffbayson Posted October 30, 2002 Share Posted October 30, 2002 All right, gearheads, I need your professional opinion. I'm looking to upgrade my vocal sound in my home recording studio. Right now, I'm just running an SM58 through a Mackie mixer, and that ain't cutting it. I would also use the compressor on my electric pianos (I run a Wurlitzer and a Rhodes through various effects pedals, which can make the signal fly over the place). I don't need to be able to process too many channels; I have a small apartment, and usually I'm only recording myself, or three musicians at the most. I don't want to spend much more than $600 on a mic, or more than $1000 on the compressor. I could be persuaded to spend a little more if the improvement would be significant. Basically, I want to get the most bang for the buck, but I'd rather spend a little more and get better results than save money now but end up dumping everything on eBay a month later. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted October 30, 2002 Share Posted October 30, 2002 What are you recording into? The reason I ask is that really good mics and compressors are worthless if you're using, for example, the convertors on a soundblaster ;) Give us a complete picture of what you're using now and we'll help :) "That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffbayson Posted October 30, 2002 Author Share Posted October 30, 2002 Geez. What's wrong with Soundblaster? Next you'll be telling me to upgrade my Casio drum beats. I don't care what anybody says; that canned "Samba" groove RULES. Anyway.... good point. Here's the rundown of my humble home studio: I run Emagic Logic on a G4. The audio gets in through an Audiowerk 8 PCI card (Emagic's old sound card: it has 2 RCA inputs, 2 digital inputs, and 8 RCA outputs). The Audiowerk 8 runs at 18-bit resolution. Might need to upgrade that, too. Hmm. Anyway, to get the sound from my audio sources (mics, electric pianos, etc.) into the sound card, I run everything through the preamps on a Mackie 1202 VLZ mixer. I might need to upgrade my preamps someday, too, but my guess is that I should tackle the compressor and mic first. I don't need a larger mixer yet, because as I said, I'm mostly recording myself (and I do most of my mixing within Logic, anyway). Hope this helps. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenElevenShadows Posted October 30, 2002 Share Posted October 30, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by eljefe: [b] I don't want to spend much more than $600 on a mic, or more than $1000 on the compressor. I could be persuaded to spend a little more if the improvement would be significant. [/b][/quote]That's $1600 total. Consider an Audio Technica AT4060 tube condenser microphone and a FMR RNC (Really Nice Compressor), at about $1300 and $200 respectively. This gets you under your proposed amount and gives you the best signal path for what you are proposing. Do not let the paltry price tag or the Heath Kit appearance of the RNC fool you -- it's a very, very nice compressor and is awesome on vocals in Super Nice Mode. Best bang for the buck by far, and insanely clean and useful and transparent. Really. More than that, consider one of the Lawsons, like the L47 and the same compressor. http://www.lawsonmicrophones.com (I think) http://www.fmraudio.com/ Ken Lee Photography - photos and books Eleven Shadows ambient music The Mercury Seven-cool spacey music Linktree to various sites Instagram Nightaxians Video Podcast Eleven Shadows website Ken Lee Photography Pinterest Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenElevenShadows Posted October 30, 2002 Share Posted October 30, 2002 I also agree with the above post. If you have lousy converters, then you are denying yourself an incredibly important part of the audio chain. BTW, the AT4060 is cardioid only, which usually doesn't matter for most people. It's not very "tubey" sounding, either. I recommend it because it's a nice sounding microphone that is very good on both male and female vocals, is pretty big sounding, and is very useful on instruments as well. It's a very flexible microphone. It's not really very hyped on the top end, so if that is important to you, look for another mic, like maybe one of the Rodes, which has a lot more top end. Ken Lee Photography - photos and books Eleven Shadows ambient music The Mercury Seven-cool spacey music Linktree to various sites Instagram Nightaxians Video Podcast Eleven Shadows website Ken Lee Photography Pinterest Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffbayson Posted October 30, 2002 Author Share Posted October 30, 2002 [quote] If you have lousy converters, then you are denying yourself an incredibly important part of the audio chain. [/quote]Point taken... but would you say that the Audiowerk8 (see my last post) is a "lousy converter"? I don't think it is, but I could be wrong... Thanks for all of the recommendations. I checked a couple of old postings, and several people had sworn by the Shure KSM 27 as a vocal mic. Would say there's a significant difference between that and the AT4047? (Forgive my ignorance in this area: I am primarily a songwriter, keyboard player and singer. My production chops are improving, but my eyes glaze over when I read microphone specs). I know it might be hard to compare if you haven't tried them both... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salyphus Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 I would agree with others that if you have $1600 to spend, the biggest bang for the buck would be to get better converters (the Audiophile 24/96 is going for around $159 or so right now and is miles above anything from Creative) and then spend most of the rest on your Microphone(s). If you can get a good signal into your PC at 24 bits then compression before the converters is less of an issue and you can compress inside the PC with software if you need to. Also, as mentioned the RNC is an absolute steal at <$200 which would still leave you plenty of budget for quality mics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salyphus Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 Whoops, scratch what I said about your convertors, I skimmed the posts too fast :rolleyes: sorry. I think yours are probably OK, at least much better than if you were using a SoundBlaster that's for sure ;) I would recommend taking a look at the Rode Classic II large diaphram tube condenser. I have one and am extremely happy with how it sounds, and it is very flexible. Check out the reviews, I haven't really heard a single bad thing about it, and the prices have come down on them lately, you might be able to find one for under a grand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffbayson Posted October 31, 2002 Author Share Posted October 31, 2002 [quote] The Rode Classic II... the prices have come down on them lately, you might be able to find one for under a grand. [/quote]I just checked all my usual gear sites, and I couldn't find the Rode Classic II for less than $1600. Have you seen it cheaper elsewhere? Could you point me in the direction of a store/website that might have it for cheaper? Thanks for recommendation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salyphus Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 Damn, I just searched around and found the same thing, $1599 everywhere. I could have sworn that I saw it for a lot less than that at a couple of places a few months ago, but I'm afraid I can't remember where right now. If it comes back to me I'll let you know. There's always the used option of course, if you can find one. I'd better not tell you how much I got mine for. Let's just say I couldn't afford it but I couldn't afford not to get it either ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meriphew_dup1 Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 I would suggest having a serious look/listen to the Brauner Phantom mic. www.meriphew.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenElevenShadows Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 I'm not familiar with your Audioworks8. I can tell you that my Digi001 converters are really not all that great. It depends. If you are doing good quality demos with Digi001 converters, then they are really good. It's just funny -- I've got a pretty decent audio chain, but it really sucks the sound out of it when I record just about anything through their converters. Ken Lee Photography - photos and books Eleven Shadows ambient music The Mercury Seven-cool spacey music Linktree to various sites Instagram Nightaxians Video Podcast Eleven Shadows website Ken Lee Photography Pinterest Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duhduh Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 I would recommend the Rode NTK or the Groove Tubes GT66. The Rode has performed very well for me and I borrowed a GT66 and was quite impressed. Very similar to the Rode. During the same session I also borrowed a Nuemann TLM103 and didnt like it very much at all. "Meat is the only thing you need beside beer! Big hunks of meat and BEER!!...Lots of freakin' BEER." "Hey, I'm not Jesus Christ, I can't turn water into wine. The best I can do is turn beer into urine." Zakk Wylde http://www.hepcnet.net/bbssmilies/super.gif http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15_1_109.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GY Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 I strongly recommend the Shure KSM44. Mulit-pattern, extremely low noise, sounds great and can be had for $600 and some change delivered. I do NOT work for Shure Brothers. GY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenElevenShadows Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 The guy has Audioworks8 converters. We should consider suggesting some sub-$500 stereo A/D D/A converters that he can use. Super Salacious mentioned the Audiophile 24/96. Any others that would be a noticeable step up from what he's got? Or is what he has good enough already? On a far more expensive note, I was considering getting the Apogee Mini-Me, since I need a step up from mic preamps as well as converters. Would you say that this is a good choice? It's expensive, something like US$1250, but I am looking for something really good for both mic preamps and converters. Ken Lee Photography - photos and books Eleven Shadows ambient music The Mercury Seven-cool spacey music Linktree to various sites Instagram Nightaxians Video Podcast Eleven Shadows website Ken Lee Photography Pinterest Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffbayson Posted October 31, 2002 Author Share Posted October 31, 2002 [quote] Super Salacious mentioned the Audiophile 24/96. Any others that would be a noticeable step up from what he's got? Or is what he has good enough already [/quote]I hadn't really considered upgrading my converters until this post... AAARG! Why is it that every time I ask you guys a question, I end up spending two thousand dollars? Anyway... the major difference I see between the Audiophile 24/96 24-bit 96kHz and the Audiowerk8 is that the Audophile runs at 24 bits, as opposed to Audiowerk8's 18 bits. So I could get higher quality sound by switching. On the other hand, is it going to make that big of a difference? Furthermore, Audiowerk8 is made by Emagic, who also make Logic, which eliminates any compatibility problems... On the other hand, Emagic no longer makes Audiowerk8, which may not be a good sign... Anyway, thanks for all of the mic recommendations. I'm going to have to do some research. Can anybody point me in the direction of a microphone "primer"? As I said earlier in this thread, mic specs make no sense to me, and I think I should educate myself before I start purchasing stuff... Also, I have only received one recommendation for a compressor. Any other suggestions? (FYI, I already use VST compressor plug-ins, but I need a hardware compressor to level out my incoming signal in certain situations). Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wewus432 Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 Hey jefe: The [url=http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/]Studio Projects C1[/url] has gotten rave reviews everywhere as an inexpensive mic that sounds like an expensive mic. I know, sounds like bs, but I have read unsolicited reviews by professional recording engineers comparing it to a Neumann U87. It retails for $200.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffbayson Posted October 31, 2002 Author Share Posted October 31, 2002 Thanks for the tip. I just read some ridiculously glowing reviews of the C1. I'll definitely have to check it out. Speaking of reviews... is anybody aware of a music gear product comparison website? Sort of like a CNet for gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael saulnier Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by eljefe: [b]Thanks for the tip. I just read some ridiculously glowing reviews of the C1. I'll definitely have to check it out. Speaking of reviews... is anybody aware of a music gear product comparison website? Sort of like a CNet for gear?[/b][/quote]NO, I've been hunting for something like this as well... if you find one, post a link here. Maybe there's an OPPORTUNITY to be cultivated. Do you think the folks that make and sell this stuff have any more $'s to advertise on such a site? guitplayer I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHAN Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 I have been really happy for the $$$ with my MOTU 828's ($700 each) and a pair of C1's. ($200 each) I would think with these and a RNP, you should be able to do some nice work. Of course all the other suggestions a good as well. The C1's are somewhat colored, which I like. Something Like an AT 4050 is a lot more transparent, and may be more versatile. So Many Drummers. So Little Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rog951 Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 The S.P. C1 is a really nice mic for the money. Also, for about the same price, I like the Rode NT1000 maybe even a little bit more. I don't think you'll go wrong with either of these mics on vocals for the money you'll spend. I'll jump on the RNC bandwagon too, especially if you want it mainly for vocals. I say buy one of these first, then see if you feel like you still need anything else. My guess is you won't... None more black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffbayson Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 Thanks again, everybody. I think I'll try out the C1 first. I can't find a bad review of it anywhere. And it sure fits my budget nicely. Sorry to keep repeating myself, but does anybody have any more suggestions for a compressor? I was hoping to spend $800 or less, but as in the case of the C1, I will gladly settle for an unbelievable deal on something else. :) On that note, Ken/Eleven Shadows had suggested the FMR RNC (Really Nice Compressor), which I believe ran for only $200. Joemeek also comes highly recommended, but that's about all I can say about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenElevenShadows Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 The C1 has a street of only $200! With that and the RNC, you're talking only $400 tops. Wow! It's amazing what you can do nowadays. I have not heard the C1, but I did read some of the reviews on the web site. For bargain mics, it sounds like a winner. I seriously doubt that it will sound like a Neumann U87 since a C1 has that rising top end at 10-12k. If that rising top end sounds like something you might want, it sounds like a winner. Another good mic for a little bit more that has a bump at 12k is the Rode NT2. It's a nice-sounding mic. I own one. It's not useful on all instruments, but when it shines, it's very nice. I even abuse it and use it on floor toms, where it does well -- good solid, meaty floor tom with tone. Also does very well on certain voices. Maybe the C1 might have similar characteristics. Caveats of the Rode are that it seems slightly flimsy (my Audio Technica mics are built like tanks, really solid) and that the breath from a vocalist can render the mic inoperative for as much as ten minutes due to the moisture (use a pop filter and this will not happen). I've heard that Rode has fixed this problem. I have one of the earliest Rode NT2s. Also, in my opinion, the Rode NT2 is one of the WORST sounding microphones I have ever used on a guitar amp when using distortion. It's just hideous because of the 12k bump. My AT4060 is beautiful in this application, as it is much flatter, bigger, and warmer sounding, but then again, you are talking about a much higher-quality microphone, so it's not a fair comparison. Another budget mic that you should consider auditioning alongside the C1 is the Marshall. I don't remember the model, but it's a large diaphragm condenser that is probably fairly similar to the C1 and also supposed to be built well, and also uses Chinese construction. A lot of people seem to like the Marshall. And finally, if you are willing to spend a little more, I've heard good things about the AT4050, although I've never used one. I've not been that impressed with the AT4033 for vocals. I find it too midrangey-sounding, but maybe your opinion may vary. Re: RNC -- I have not found a better, clearer, more transparent, more useful compressor for anywhere near $200. Ken Lee Photography - photos and books Eleven Shadows ambient music The Mercury Seven-cool spacey music Linktree to various sites Instagram Nightaxians Video Podcast Eleven Shadows website Ken Lee Photography Pinterest Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bond1 Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Yes the RNC is hands-down the best compressor anywhere near its price. As far as mics, you should really try them first if at all possible. That being said, a Soundelux U195 ($1200) is the best sounding mic to me in that price range. The Audio Technica 4050 is very versatile, but not really a great pop-vocal mic IMO. Others like the AT4060 for vocals, I've never heard one though. I liked the Rode NTK and Studio Projects C3 as well. The C3 gives a nice big pop-vocal sound and that whole Studio Projects line is specacular value for home recordists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffbayson Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 Item: I just found the C1 and the RNC on sale, together as a package, for $389.90. And the C1 now comes with bass rolloff and a pad switch (some reviewers had complained that it didn't). And the shipping is free. And they throw in a free mic cable (brand conveniently unspecified, but who cares; I could use it to tie my car trunk shut on the way to gigs). Well, what the hell. I would like to test microphones, but I can't find the C1 in any local store where I would be able to hear it, and this is pretty good deal. I might just go for it. There's only one problem... I had been planning on spending buttloads of cash, and now I'm spending less than $400. I need to spend some more money! Which leads me to think.... should I upgrade my preamps? I've been using the preamps on my Mackie VLZ Pro. The Conventional Wisdom I've gleaned from various gearheads is that says you can't do much better until you start spend over a grand. Then again, that's what I thought about mics and compressors. Please, somebody prove me wrong! I'm on a bargain gear shopping spree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHAN Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 If you go with tha C1/RNC combo, then I think that thr RNP(real nice preamp) would be a no bainer for your situatiuon. :freak: So Many Drummers. So Little Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halljams Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 I suggest going to ebay. There are a few ward beck 470 modules on there right now. $150 for 2 is the average going price. These are really good pres and you get "2"!! ( no they are not mine or anyone i know, i have 10 already) Keep in mind you have to find a +/- 25volt power supply for the modules and a 48 vlt for phantom, unless you have that covered already. Then you get to learn a little about wiring and for probly under 300 dollars you are set up with smokin pres and you are also set up for many other types of eq, compressor and pre modules that are being taken out of old boards and are all over the place now days. This route isn't for everyone but you get way better quality stuff at waaayyy less money than if you succumb to all the "NEW" gear marketing bullshit. The 470's have roll off and phase inversion, mic/line in, all balanced, what do ya want?! ;) Check out SUPERVIBE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliengroover Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Wow, a lot of good advice, but not much on the pres. I used my Mackie's for a long time, but once I went JoeMeek I just couldn't go back. My combo is the VC3Q and the Rode NT1. At EVERY big studio I've been to the engineers love my vocal sound, and are just a little shocked when I tell them what I tracked them with. The mic Ken speaks of is the Marshall MX2001P. My friend has that and likes it. There's even a kit to convert it into a tube mic. Personally, I'd spring for maybe the NTK or the NT1-A and the JoeMeek VC1QS or the VC6Q (depending on what you want to spend) and the RNC. I've run drums samples and keys through the JoeMeek and they sound incredible! Also, consider the Focusrite Voicemaster Pro. I've heard mixed things about it's predecessor, but apparently they've addressed any previous issues. Peace If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking 'til you do suck seed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AEW Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 I've tried all the Rode mics and their great. But I got rid of all my Rodes and now I have the Neumann M147 and the Baby Blue Bottle for vocals. The BBB is a worthy mic to try out, well priced as well. As far as compressors are concerned you can't go wrong with dbx. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 All the suggestions above are good, it really is very subjective which mic you will prefer. If you can, try several of them and compare. I wouldn't be too optimistic about the C1 sounding like a U87, but I was never the biggest U87 fan anyway. :D I agree that the RNC is the best compressor within miles of its price range. If you have more money to spend after buying an RNC and a mic, try the RNP, and you also might want to check out the JoeMeek VC1Q which is a combination preamp/optical compressor/EQ. It is a REALLY nice sounding pre for the money (about $600 new), and the compressor is a different "flavor" than the RNC which is more transparent. I really dig the compression in the JoeMeek a LOT even though I wouldn't want it to be my only compressor. Have fun checking out all the toys! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.