Workstations: The Movie

[Dave Bryce]

During the last few years , there's been a lot of talk amongst the digerati (love this term - swiped it from another forum) that the workstation's viability in today's market had by and large come to an end. A lot of this seemed to be attributed to the increasing proliferation of computers in the home - with the exception of convenience, there are very few intellectually supportable arguments in favor of using a workstation sequencer over even the most limited software sequencer.

 

So, I guess the Korg Triton's success kinda took a lot of people by surprise, huh?

 

Where do you think the workstation thing is going to go from here? Is the Triton the end of the line for this genre? If not, where do you see the workstation thing going?

 

dB

[Marvster]

Which begs the question: Do people *use* the sequencer (or the sampling, for that matter) in the Triton, or did its synth engine make it a success?

 

How about a poll?

 

Marv

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Marvster:

Which begs the question: Do people *use* the sequencer (or the sampling, for that matter) in the Triton, or did its synth engine make it a success?

 

How about a poll?

 

Marv

 

Good one, Marv!

 

I like the Triton a lot. For me, it was the sound engine with the Z1 thing, combined with A) the coolest arpeggiator I have EVER played with, and B) the touch screen interface, which (IMO) they finally got very right. I've never bben motivated to try the sequencer or the sampling on it.

 

How is the rack doing? That would be a good indicator...

 

dB

[marino]

Very good thread. Maybe another way to put it would be "Do you still want/need a sequencer in your synth?"

I've bought a number of workstations, and every time I remember saying to myself: "I'll never use the sequencer; I got a better one on my computer".

Well, I ended up learning and using every one of those on-board sequencers. As sctratchpads, for composing on the road or on vacation, and especially to play sequences live, they proved useful to me.

I believe that the new Yamaha and Alesis synths have sequence player instead than (supposed) full-featured sequencers, and maybe this is a wise move. But what if you need to change a few things in your sequences during the course of a tour?

Also I wouldn't like to have to bring a computer onstage just to act as a sequencer. If I can have one less box to worry about, I say let that sequencer in the workstation!

One final idea: I really would like to see a master keyboard with a sequence player on board!

(please forgive my English!)

marino

[Pim]

I see a great future for the first workstation made in co-operation with Steinberg or Emagic.

It should have a touch screen 17 inches wide, running Cubase or equivalent, and a CD burner for the final mix and data storage.

Sampling and harddiskrecording as options.

 

Soundwise I would like to see a real digital synthesis, something like PPG Wave, Prophet VS, Kawai K5000s etc. and Magic samples in ROM.

 

One other thing: I would prefer a joystick. Not only for modulations, but also for some video games the synth factory will make for us...

 

 

------------------

www.dancewave.nl

[DBENNVAhotmail.com]

Peeps,

 

I'd say that the Triton has got to be liked

for it's sound. The EXB-MOSS(Z1 Option) just

adds more icing to the cake. A top notch synth to have but would'nt use it exclusivly. We don't because we've got the XV-5080 also. Both top notch but with different flavorings. There's still

some stuff that we like about the Trinity.

My production group opted to keep our Trinity

with the SOLO-TRI(Prophecy Option), & got a

Triton Rack. We don't like Korg sequencers, & the Triton Racks sequencer only plays back

sequences from the keyboard version Tritons

anyway so it does'nt hurt us. We can't speak on the keyboard versions sequencer. We don't like the sampler as much as others. No digital in. Our contribution to the Triton poll.

 

Quantum!, & Camp C/O

DBENNVA@hotmail.com

 

 

[This message has been edited by DBENNVA@hotmail.com (edited 10-22-2000).]

[D.Triny]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

So, I guess the Korg Triton's success kinda took a lot of people by surprise, huh?

 

Triton has killer sound and a killer arpeggiator.

 

The future of workstations is integration with PC technology. Stick in an embedded Intel/Athlon processor add a VGA adaptor, Firewire and USB ports and Win2k embedded.

 

-david abraham

[Jim Aikin]

I'm not sure it would be cost-effective to embed a full-on PC with Windows in a workstation keyboard. Far better to encourage manufacturers to build workstations that can integrate better with your existing PC or Mac. The steps taken in this direction to date (Yamaha's editor software, for instance) are good but not nearly as good as it can get.

 

Ultimately, one should be able to plug the Firewire connector from the workstation directly into the Firewire port on the computer and then use the computer monitor and mouse as a transparent extension of the workstation OS. And then, if we can get the manufacturers to do it in Linux, we can write custom software for our workstations!

 

--Jim A.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

For me, it's the Triton sound and touch-screen interface. However, I have to say I don't think they really got the user interface right. There's loads of things wrong with it as a performance instrument. Which is why I decided to sell mine and get a Triton rack instead.

[Anderton]

A lot of onboard sequencers have better timing than computer-based models. I particularly liked the interface on Ensoniq keyboards - I could make music within seconds of turning the thing on. I ended up writing quite a few tunes on the TS-10, and then sending the data over to a computer-based keyboard for editing.

 

But I don't want a fancy onboard sequencer. I want it simple and accurate - I want an MMT-8 in a box, not Cubase VST.

[Max Ventura]

I have been using workstations ever since 1992, and the best one for me has been Yamaha SY-85, by far. Although it had only 8 trax plus rhythm, it had faders on the panel, and it was sooo dead precise and a doodle to make a sequence, a PROFESSIONAL SEQUENCE, on it.

Sounds were all more than adequate, too.

After I sold that (stupid that I am) I have tried to find the same features and ease of use in another model, but I haven't honestly found it.

I am a dealer, so I have tried nearly all of them. Neither the Roland XP range, nor the Yamaha EX range, nor the Kurzs, nor the Korgs (the worst in terms of interface), nor the Ensoniq, nor the Gem, and not even the Kawai. I am today apreciating the Roland JX-305 groovesynth because it managed to keep my interest alive for a week now, but it is a limited keyboard indeed, certainly not a full-featured workstation.

I will always be looking for a good 16 or more tracks workstation with enough quality sounds onboard, with realtime controls for sound and sequence editing (essential, otherwise I'd get a Korg) and possibly volume faders for live interaction, which is something that the Yamaha SY-85 let me do even at live DJing gigs.

I also think that the future workstation should use some stripped-down version of Cubase or Logic for its engine, and maybe be able to load soft-synths or sound libraries freely. However, I think that if you do not consider important having actual, physical realtime controls for almost all the mixing, editing and recording parameters, you are making a big mistake and you probably either have a lot of time and patience to spare for programming, or you did not make good use of your experiences onstage.

And finally remember that what is good onstage, will be extra-good in the studio, but not vice-versa.

 

Max,

Italy.

 

P.S.:

Marino, di dove sei?

[Jim Aikin]

Originally posted by Anderton:

A lot of onboard sequencers have better timing than computer-based models.

 

Hey, Craig.... Is this observation based on bench-tests, or is it just an offhand comment based on your impressions? I'm curious, because we all know that many synths are not especially snappy about firing their own voices -- so why should we assume that their sequencers are over-engineered?

 

--Jim A.

[marino]

Sorry, guys, I'm going to switch to Italian for a moment. Apologies to everybody.

 

Per Max: mi spiace di non aver notato il tuo P.S. in questa vecchia thread, non era mia intenzione ignorarlo.

Vivo e lavoro a Roma da sempre anche se le mie origini sono tutt'altre (Romagna). E tu?

Se ti va di scambiare qualche notizia ed opinione, puoi tranquillamente usare questa email: carmez@tin.it Quella registrata sul Forum la controllo di rado.

Saluti & buon lavoro

 

marino

[Alon]

Never been a fan of workstations of any kind, and I probably never will...

 

When I get a module, or keyboard, I could care less about the extra features, like a sequencer and other fancy stuff...(which only justifies a higher price tag)

 

I sequence on computers, and I don't feel like using some limited built in seq...

 

It seems like the Trinity, and more recently, the Triton are the "hot" items that everyone uses on sessions these days...

 

In my opinion this a lot to do with "Monkey See, Monkey Do."

 

I've yet to see anyone use the onboard sequencer on these items...(I've done countless sessions involving either of these two pieces...)

 

If you ask me, they should take out a few of these "useless" features (at least useless for me), and release a cheaper version without it...(Yes, I know they have the Racks out now, but most people have the KB's)

 

I've always strayed away from workstations, 'cause I don't like the idea of everything in one box...(especially all the sound emenating from one sound source...)

 

Well, I really have nothing good to say about workstations, so I won't say anymore...

 

Final Thought: I'm sure some people like workstations, they're just not for me...

 

BTW- Didn't this whole workstation buzz start with the M1 ?, which I've always thought of as a Piece of Crap...

 

(If any M1 lovers out there feel like Flaming me, go right ahead.)

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Marvster:

Which begs the question: Do people *use* the sequencer (or the sampling, for that matter) in the Triton, or did its synth engine make it a success?

 

How about a poll?

 

Marv

 

I am a recent Triton convert, but I was won over solely by the way it sounds. Mine is a rack with a playback-only sequencer. I also own a couple of Kurzweils, and I never use those sequencers, either. I'm very attached to my Mac-based sequencer and am very comfortable with it. I wouldn't think to use anything else, unless timing became an issue. The Kurzweil voices respond more quickly to the internal sequencer, but so far, MIDI timing has not been sloppy enough to detract noticeably from any of my projects.

[waynecableone.net]

Hi,

 

I own a Korg Triton as my sole synth; used to have a Roland JV-1000 but traded it for some gear. I love the sounds on the Triton, and have been playing with the arpeggiator, samplerm and vocoder just learning how to utilize all of the features of the board. I for one find having an onboard sequencer and sampler very handy for what I primarily use my board for: I am youth pastor and do I great deal of contemporary worship in my church. Having an onboard sequencer and sampler mean that I can have a fairly high quality music service without having to lug around tons of gear (extra sampler, computer, etc.). The Triton sequencer can let one put together some pretty decent mixes, especially when you start playing around with the effects on the board, which I m learning is a real art in and of itself.

 

My .02 cents as a newbie,

Wayne Barrett

[Dave Bryce]

Here's another thread from the graveyard of the back pages...this one should definitely elicit a comment or two, I would think...

 

dB

[Llarion]

Originally posted by Marvster:

Which begs the question: Do people *use* the sequencer (or the sampling, for that matter) in the Triton, or did its synth engine make it a success?

 

How about a poll?

 

Marv

 

 

I have the 61 key Triton, and I have never even explored the sequencing and sampling functions. I've barely ventured past the presets to mess with the percussion stuff. My piece The Journey is the farthest I got on the Triton.

 

Why?

 

I'm intimidated by this instrument. I've never sequenced. I have a massive computer too, and I've never sequenced on it either.

 

My first CD is called Analog Man in a Digital World for a reason.

 

I shudder to think about what I could do if I mastered this thing.

 

 

------------------

Cheers!

 

Phil "Llarion: The Jazzinator" Traynor

www.mp3.com/llarion

Smooth Jazz

 

This message has been edited by Llarion on 06-23-2001 at 02:51 PM

[Llarion]

Originally posted by pim@dancewave.nl:

I see a great future for the first workstation made in co-operation with Steinberg or Emagic.

It should have a touch screen 17 inches wide, running Cubase or equivalent, and a CD burner for the final mix and data storage.

Sampling and harddiskrecording as options.

 

Soundwise I would like to see a real digital synthesis, something like PPG Wave, Prophet VS, Kawai K5000s etc. and Magic samples in ROM.

 

One other thing: I would prefer a joystick. Not only for modulations, but also for some video games the synth factory will make for us...

 

 

 

 

Sounds like a Roland VS-2480 with a keyboard grafted to it... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Gus Lozada]

Hola David !

 

We had a discussion last time regarding what are the features which qualify a synth as a workstation. Remember it? According to Mitch Gallagher from KEYBOARD MAGAZINE (Jan 2000 Issue) the first WS was the ROLAND D-20 since a "true workstation" must include: sequencing, sounds, FX, mixing and storage to inexpensive portable media.

 

Now...

 

Besides of TRITON, there are now around the KARMA and the K2600, which fit the description. And I have listened opinions of users and they are delighted with them.

 

Of course, there is a trend that not every new synth has to be a workstation so many manufacturers are releasing powerful machines without sequencers (and without the price of including it, adding some other cool features). But I sincerely believe workstations time is not over yet.

 

your thoughts?

[synthetic]

I disagree about the cheap storage, most synths I think of as workstations (eg. Korg M1/T3) don't have this.

 

My take on workstations is that if all of your sounds come from one synth, or even one manufacturer's synths, it sounds really thin. I've heard this called the "Mighty Wurlitzer effect", you keep piling on the layers and it sounds thinner and thinner. There may be a technical reason for this - maybe the mix amps can't take it, or all of your sounds are going through the same D/A, or the programmers' tastes are constant, but I can definitely hear it. So my advice to anyone considering a Triton or K2500 for all of their needs would be to find two completely different synths for the same money.

[Dave Bryce]

Besides of TRITON, there are now around the KARMA and the K2600, which fit the description.

 

Well, those aren't really new, though, are they?

 

The K2600 is basically a very big screamingly powerful K2000. Admittedly, there are a bunch of new bells and whistles, but it's still basically the same product. The KARMA is a Triton with different bells and whistles and a pretty maroon finish, but it's still basically a Triton engine with Steven Kay's algorithms. Also, I don't think that the "workstation" functions of either of these synths is the main reason that people buy either of them.

 

However, if you had brought up the Yamaha Motif...that's a new one.

 

And I have listened opinions of users and they are delighted with them.

 

The reason that I brought up the Triton is because it is a huge seller - it occupied the #1 selling synth spot for quite a while, and may actually even still be. I do not know if the KARMA is a big seller, but I am not under the impression that its numbers come close to the Triton's sales numbers. I believe that he K2600 is too expensive to do the sales numbers that the Triton does (sorry, Mike!), and the Motif isn't out yet - we'll have to wait and see what it does.

 

So, you see, I'm not just wondering about products that are released, I'm talking about products that are (or will be) posting sales figures like the Triton, and the Roland XP series before it. Whether or not some people who post on the forum or fellow musicians to whom you speak are are "delighted with them" is not an accurate gauge of the success of a product, unfortunately - there's only one accurate gauge...if it sells.

 

But I sincerely believe workstations time is not over yet.

 

Why not? I'm not saying that I disagree with you, I'm just wondering why you think this.

 

dB

[b3wiz]

I sure hope their day is not over. I don't know how I would survive without them. The 01/W was my first and only until the advent of Triton.

I have the 61 key model which is very handy because I travel with it quite a bit.

 

I rely on the fact that I can sit in a motel room or before a gig or, for that matter, along the road and lay down tracks as the inspiration hits me and save them on a floppy until I get back to the studio. One studio I work with I actually can mail my floppy in to them so they can keep working on a project.

 

I use it as a performance synth as well, because it is so easy to use on the fly. The touch screen is awesome, the sounds, for the most part, are stellar and the fact that I can edit effects and EQ right in front of me on the fly is way too cool, as is the rppr function.

 

As far as the studio goes, having the ability to access other samples, not to mention a sea of great sounds on board and on the cards, the ability to save studio time by doing pre production work on the onboard sequencer and even actually having many tracks ready before I get to the studio...ad infinitum....makes having a workstation an indespensible way of life for me.

 

I still have a separate organ and piano when I play live, but I could never do without my Triton. Creatively speaking, I feel very fortunate to be living in an age when such an instrument is available. Younger players may take this technology for granted, but if any of us older musicians stop for a minute and reflect, we can only imagine where we would be had this stuff been available to us 25 or 30 years ago. Viva la Workstations!!!

[Rod S]

I think both of them will continue to co-exist peacefully http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Think of the computer DAW vs the stand alone boxes (Yamaha AW, Roland VS series, etc). Neither is going to replace the other IMHO. Once in a while this topic shows up at SSS and it's interesting to see how polarized the discussion is. Each has it's own market. I know a lot of people who just don't want to deal with the hassle of setting things up in a computer.

 

I personally wouldn't give up the flexibility of the computer sequencer. I have my gear all hooked up, and all the keyboards have their own midi ins which mean I can record of any of them at any time in cakewalk, I just have to arm the track and start. Plus to be hunched over looking at a screen in a keyboard.. rather sit back and relax and look the computer.

 

But I can see the convenience for others. I interviewed for a job that would have sent me to germany for 6 months. Obviously I wouldn't have taken all my gear with me, and I was starting to look what laptop/workstation solutions there were. Cost would also be one issue. I'm just happy midi exists and I can use synths/modules from 4 different manufacturers and play around with sounds till I get something I like.

 

I do like the ability to integrate sounds from different synths. Yep, and I agree there's some kind of 'vanilla' effect from just layering sounds from the same insturument. If only I got a roland XV or JV I would be all set as far as diversity http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif But I don't think this applies to the kurz since it's also a sampler, but I've seen this effect with my alesis qs6.

 

I have to agree with Dave about the kurz.. that's why my k2000 is going to stay where it is. No need for a k2600 right now (Although theres some killer effects in the KDFX). No money for one either!

 

I'm dying to see how the MOTIF will do. It's definetly got the sound engine. I love my cs6x and I think the sounds are killer. But after the EX didn't do so well this is a bold move for yamaha. On the other hand, it seems they finally go things right (s80/cs6x) so we'll see.

 

Rod

[Gus Lozada]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Well, those aren't really new, though, are they?

 

No Sir, not new but currently available in the market...

 

I don't think that the "workstation" functions of either of these synths is the main reason that people buy either of them.

 

A 100% agree with you. That could not be the reason but the manufacturers insisted on making them full workstations... they know why...

 

I'm not saying that I disagree with you, I'm just wondering why you think this.

 

I feel this is just like the idea about Printed magazines are dead...

 

The fact of having a synth workstation available to work as soon as you turn it on and record some passages you could transfer later to a DAW is still an attractive idea.

 

Of course, you know I am not a lot into getting workstations since I use my studio PC for the job and the LapTop for live usage. But one of my synths has an internal sequencer and I still use it from time to time.

 

One of my best musicians friends has just switched from a PC based DAW to a YAMAHA PSR900 ... believe it... or not...

 

Tools, tools... someone said once analog synths were dead... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

------------------

Gustavo G Lozada

 

Moderador de:

MusicPlayer.com/NuestroForo

"La voz en Español en Música y Tecnología"

 

GusTraX @yahoo.com

[industriac]

Workstations...those are the only types of KB's ive worked with since touching a synth 3 years ago.

 

I think having a sequencer part of the workstation is a great. Like some other people posted, it can act like a doodle pad. All you need with a Workstation is a pair of earphones and a power source, and you are ready to write some music down easily or not so easily using the internal sequencer and presets.

 

About the Triton...Ive seen that synth used by so many people and bands. Ive never really played around with the Triton. Hmm...maybe its just matter of opinion...but people say that the Triton sold because it had great sounds, and then there are other people who think the sounds on the Triton arent that great.

 

I own a KARMA, which is bascially a Triton with different features, and it does have lots of decent preset sounds. I bought it because a)the KARMA function, b)its a workstation, c)price, and d)its a KORG. Yes, I could have gotten the Triton instead, but that around $500 more than the KARMA, and, since im a poor student, I didnt have too much money to spend. I needed to buy a synth with an internal sequencer because I needed to finish writing up some songs quickly, and I havent broken into the world of computer sequencing. Ive become pretty adept using the internal sequencer and everytime I use I discover something new that could helpful.

 

About the interface of KORG seqeuncers, yes they arent great. Waaaaaaaay too many menus you have to go through to do what you want to do. And, the manual isnt that great either.

 

To anyone who uses the KARMA...has anyone noticed that even though its a 61 key synth, its larger than "normal" 61 key KBs.

[Michael Jones]

OK...here is my opinion!

 

I want....

 

a sequencer that interfaces with my computer AND my computer based sequencer (imagine that!).

 

real time processing.

 

an interface that works with my computer via something faster than MIDI (maybe FireWire).

 

expandibility that is affordable. (I want to order the amenities that I desire...not what some idiot engineer or marketing manager thinks is a one size fits all)! AND NOT $450 for an additional sound ROM!

 

and speaking of one size fits all...take your all encompassing ROMs and shove them!

 

I want to order a board that fits my needs and is configured by me.

 

Now this is not too much to ask. The technology available to accomplish this is ridiculously cheap! The way boards are being marketed is assinine! Someone is going to get a clue and realize that there are too many music genres that have their own special needs. If you are into dance then you have a different set of requirements than I have (film music). Into something else? Your needs are different. Gimme a break! Keyboard manufacturers need to get a clue!

 

Then there are those special applications such as the A6. These boards are in a class all their own. This is OK..but for workstations I demand something extraordinary. A viable and versatile musical instrument that by its design is applicable to varied and diverse musical dissertations (Watch out!! I am starting to wax philosophic!)

 

This is the reason I think the Triton has done so incredibly well! Here is a board that has real foresight in its design, Configurable with a variety of add-ons and an incredibly diverse and well designed ROM bank. While I do not have a Triton (SNIFF!) it is definitely one on my GAS list. Although I have the greatest respect for Korg, they really missed the boat on the Karma. Korg had the opportunity to design a really kick ass board utilizing the Stephen Kay Karma algorithms. Added to the Triton they would have secured themselves a very large market share for the next several generations of buyers. But NO?...lets strip the Triton of some of its most desirable qualities....put under it a Casio style keybed and put a couple of grand out for the suggested retail. Who the hell are they kiddin'. Korg stepped on themselves BIG TIME on this one! Bean counters live on.

 

Unless Young Chang gets off their dead ass and comes up with something substantially innovative in synth design, the K2600 will be their epitaph. Dave is absolutely correct in his evaluation regarding the 2600 as nothing more than a 2000 with a few (and damn few!) amenities. Here is a company that has been resting on its laurels for entirely too long! Kurzweil is definitely NOT on the cutting edge and way to expensive. $7000 for a board that is little more than what they had a decade ago? Gimme a break! And to add insult to injury the audacity of the prices for additional upgrades is appalling! $500 (SR) for the same old add-ons they had 5+ years ago? I don't think so!

 

PLEASE...Gimme a workstation that I can configure to my wants and desires.

 

Is that asking too much?

 

Michael

 

 

PS. Gimme knobs....lots of knobs!!!

[Rod S]

Originally posted by midirat:

I want to order a board that fits my needs and is configured by me.

 

Now this is not too much to ask. The technology available to accomplish this is ridiculously cheap! The way boards are being marketed is assinine!

 

Would you care to elaborate? Having worked several years as a design engineer (not in the music industry), I frequently find it humorous what people think are 'simple' things which are actually design nightmares.

[Michael Jones]

From one engineer to another:

 

The platform to which I refer to is relatively straightforward. There is precious little variance in its design. The parameters are limited and all that is required is an interface to communicate from one application to another. The problem lies in the fact that there is no standard other than MIDI or SYSEX that has heretofore been recognized as a deviant.

 

The time is long passed for a different communications platform for our application. The technology is dated and is sorely in need of redesign if it is to be 'on the edge'.

 

Michael

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by midirat:

expandibility that is affordable. (I want to order the amenities that I desire...not what some idiot engineer or marketing manager thinks is a one size fits all)! AND NOT $450 for an additional sound ROM!

 

and speaking of one size fits all...take your all encompassing ROMs and shove them!

 

I want to order a board that fits my needs and is configured by me.

 

Now this is not too much to ask. The technology available to accomplish this is ridiculously cheap! The way boards are being marketed is assinine! Someone is going to get a clue and realize that there are too many music genres that have their own special needs. If you are into dance then you have a different set of requirements than I have (film music). Into something else? Your needs are different. Gimme a break! Keyboard manufacturers need to get a clue!

 

All Alesis QS and Quadrasynth Plus Piano synthesizers are capable of doing exactly what you want, and have been for about five years.

 

They accomplish this using a free program that comes with the synth called SoundBridge. End users can burn up to 8 MB of custom samples and programs for instant access on flash memory cards. The majority of the synths have two slots, so 16 MB is possible. As they load instantly, it is conceivable to have a few different easily exchangeable custom ROM sets.

 

Any .WAV or .AIFF file is compatible, and the current version of SoundBridge allows for the easy creation of custom keymaps. In addition, SoundBridge recognizes SampleCell and Sample Cell II instruments, and loads them with keymaps intact.

 

It is also possible to store up to 50 SMFs for playback only directly from the synth without the use of a computer - a really great trick, actually.

 

The flash cards themselves are around $150, last time I looked.

 

You'll be pleased to know that the Alesis-manufactured expansion boards sell for quite a great deal less than $450 as well,

 

Hope that helps,

 

dB