correcting tuning on rhythm guitar tks

[WFTurner]

>>>But my point was: if you tune it down too much beyond

your sweet spot<<<

 

"sweet spot" That's the phenomena that defies the scientific

just a bit. I completely understand the mathematical/scientific

picture you're presenting. Actually the guitar (actually stringed

instruments in general) is mystical and anti-scientific in a

lot of ways from other classes of instruments because the same

notes and chord structures can be played in multiple ways/positions

each having their individual "sweet spots" and "sour spots". These

phenominal instruments are comparable to God's other sweetest creature,

the woman. Study and understand them and they are the sweetest gift...

a woman to ones life... a guitar's voicing nectar to an arrangement. Be

careless and misuse them... they're both like Linda Blair, head turning, spewing puke and scaring you to death. There's a lot about both that can't quite be described scientifically.

 

I haven't gigged in about 7 years but I remember that having that set

where you found all those secret sweet spots was almost better than sex.

 

Hehehe... throw in a few good belts of scotch, a good joint and a good

old 70's caliber black widow for the next set and it was better than sex

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

I swear it was!!

 

 

 

------------------

William F. Turner

Songwriter

turnermusic

[miroslav]

wilpye,

 

Just to clarify/focus this thread a bit...

 

Many of us are talking about VERY SUBTLE, non-perfect tunings...and that they make up a lot of the "feeling" in a particular track/riff/mix....

 

You seem to be talking about plain ol' OUT-TUNE-GUITARS, that even my 74 year old father with one bad ear can identify.

 

Point is, if it's OUT-OF-TUNE...just tune it! But if you throw every guitar through an "autotune box", you will lose those VERY SUBTLE, non-perfect tunings too, along with the OUT-OF-TUNE stuff.

What would you do...program the box to leave everything alone that is within say...2 cents of perfect, but over that, start autotuning?

 

Well I guess that would not be a difficult programming feature to add to this "box"...but here is the point again, if it is just plain OUT-OF-TUNE, wouldn't you notice that before you even started recording???

It sounds like you knowingly WANT to record an out of tune guitar and than have this "box" tune it for you after the fact...why?

 

When they use autotune on vocals it is mostly because the singer CAN'T hit some notes no matter how much they try...it actually gets worse the harder they try.

With a guitar...if you can hear that it is out of tune...YOU CAN TUNE IT BEFORE YOU START...THATis the reality behind your theoretical "what if" thread...you CAN tune it.

The very subtle stuff should be left alone unless you want to suck the life out of the instrument, in which case you might as well just use a synth to play the damn guitar parts!

 

So I'm not arguing about you theoretical discussion on "can something like this be built"I am sure it can. My argument is, REALISTICALLYwhy would you need it? I don't think any decent guitarist would want to use this "box".

 

"well dude, sure, I can lay down some hot licks for your tuneBUT psssstshhhhdo you have one of those "autotune boxes.cuz I can't tune my guitara duhyuk yuk yuk."

 

Yeah I can see that going on. Right?

 

hopefully my last post on this thread(man you got any other things we could kick aroundI get the feeling like you got good "audio smarts"but this thread is starting to "piss against the wind" a bit.)

 

Peace

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by miroslav:

wilpye,

 

Just to clarify/focus this thread a bit...

 

Many of us are talking about VERY SUBTLE, non-perfect tunings...and that they make up a lot of the "feeling" in a particular track/riff/mix....

 

You seem to be talking about plain ol' OUT-TUNE-GUITARS, that even my 74 year old father with one bad ear can identify...

 

Miro, could he hear it with a banana in his good ear? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Point is, if it's OUT-OF-TUNE...just tune it! But if you throw every guitar through an "autotune box", you will lose those VERY SUBTLE, non-perfect tunings too, along with the OUT-OF-TUNE stuff.

What would you do...program the box to leave everything alone that is within say...2 cents of perfect, but over that, start autotuning?...

 

...Peace

 

Actually, that's exactly how the TC intonator works. They actually have meters, ala a compressor, showing how far off the input is, and how much correction is being applied. If you're going to use one, this is very natural and less noticable. The neat part is all processing is delayed a constant amount, so all you have to do is realign the track ahead 13ms. I'd rather the singer nail it, but it DOES sound good.

 

 

 

------------------

Neil

 

Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.

[miroslav]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Actually, that's exactly how the TC intonator works....

 

See...just shows you that I'm not up on the autotune gizmos...cuz I would still rather get it right from the git-go!

 

But I can see why they would be so attractive to singers...man, sometimes you JUST CAN'T GET A NOTE RIGHT...but I'm not up for running the entire vocal take through an autotuner.

I guess though you would take a split off the mic and record the REAL vocals on one track and the autotune vocals on another...then slice and dice as needed...?

 

Yeah...my Pop could use a banana in his ear...huh?...what did you say?...hahaha!

 

This message has been edited by miroslav on 06-08-2001 at 10:07 AM

[wilpye]

I will indeed be back later this afternoon with the promised post(s) referenced to the current issues w/fantasticsound, Master Zap, and now also the relentless Miroslav who continues to ask why.....

 

But I have to stop and tell a personal anecdote that just happened here at my house. Some young descendants came into my office and found me on the floor blue in the face and gasping for breath. My wife hit the telephone like nobody's business and had 2 ambulances on the way before I could even begin to stop her.

 

What had actually happened is I had read WFTurner's last post, you know the bit about Linda Blair & the head turning, etc.

I rolled onto the floor in total hysterics, and soon I was reduced to a quivering heap of dry spasms before I was discovered.

 

Well WF, I printed out your post (with all the yellow smily faces and all) and had it laminated. I immediately put it right over my desk.

 

WF, I may even make it to a hundred. But rest assured, I will never forget nor ever fail to remember you for this incredible computer moment. You are the best!

 

 

 

This message has been edited by wilpye on 07-07-2001 at 02:28 AM

[st00ts]

Perhaps it might be possible to edit out one frequency at a time, but the sound created by hitting a string is composed of a complex mesh of frequencies. A program couldn't differentiate whether that pick scrape came from the first or the sixth string. unless you want to retune every single frequency of the thousands of exact values that are present in a guitar piece, it won't work.

[Master Zap]

Thank you now I dont feel ignored any more http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

I dont have much time to type right now but I did a very interesting experiment by playing a melody on my synth, and then playing some chords with a bogus note thrown in... and then I taught cooledit that bogus note as "noise" and tried to remove it.... and golly, IT WORKS! Not "perfect"... you hear "shadows" of the note, and the melody sounds a bit affected at times..... but basically, tho, it does work.

 

/Z

[fantasticsound]

Cool Zap! I was hoping someone would attempt this. And, without hitting the ego ceiling, this is exactly what I would have expected. Works, but not entirely. Have fun with it. (Maybe now you can recreate the ghost and further phase cancel it without severely eroding the track. Give it a try and report back, please.)

 

------------------

Neil

 

Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.

[wilpye]

st00ts. You're 1st on the griddle here so let's go. >>> A program couldn't differentiate whether that pick scrape came from the first or the sixth string. unless you want to retune every single frequency of the thousands of exact values that are present in a guitar piece, it won't work.<<<

I think you're wrong & right. Wrong about the pick scrape; if all the program had to worry about was identifying the pick scrape, we'd have the program as of yesterday. Right in that it won't work.

I've only still been pursuing this magic program for the last 24 hours or so as an intellectual pursuit. I stand by my post of 06-07-2001 03:37 AM where I said about the Fanout box >>>I immediately ran with this as a here and now today kind of solution.<<<

The reason it won't work is only a matter of practicality in today's market. WF said it best >>>It'd be a monstrousity of a thing<<< and me and my number cruncher associates concur.

To do it right would (just for my single strat example) require a program so big it would perch on several CD-roms. And of course hiraga is dead on right. >>> Technology is not the limit. The laws of physics is<<<

But his optimism that we can scale this mountain is also right. As Miroslav said recently >>> "can something like this be built"I am sure it can.<<<

So let's all agree with with these guys and move on. Someday but not today....

 

So this brings us back to finishing up with Master Zap's original post. Whether he was on to something with >>>Cool Edit 96 (if you can still find that old thing) it has the greatest noise reduction feature in the galaxy, ever.<<< is not worth pursuing. Maybe this type of program could be the kernel for a massive extraction process, but just using it to pluck out offending clams would not give us the big enchilada. Zap speculates >>>it could pick out the closest match, and replace it with a sample of the proper chord<<< The dead end is that the program is second guessing reality too much. We need reality itself, or nothing.

And by the way Zap, the have guitar-will travel joke was a hoot!

 

((Interruption! I was just about to post this and saw Zap & fantasticsound's latest exchange. There's nothing like getting your hands dirty and ripping into a question by conducting experiments in the real world. Usually a rush!))

 

Now on to fantasticsound's post. Buzz does (in effect) what WF and Miroslav both do, he tunes the G string down several cents relative to the other pitches of a big ass open E chord. How? Buzz moves the nut closer to the 1st fret than the art calls for. This in effect sharps the two open E strings and the open B string relative to that same old G# pitch produced at the 1st fret. Get it? It took me awhile with a strobe and one of his guitars to really uncover this laid back rascal's solution (as you said) to equal temperament. And it gives you a host of of other pleasures in other ways. But Buzz's technology is not relative to our discussion, other than it shows that a lot of people would like better intonated guitars than those of standard issue.

 

Enough about Steely Dan already. I was just tying to show a musical example of somebody who gives a damn. Not hold Fagan (and me by referenced association) up to ridicule.

 

The Ferrington guitar was obviously what KBP was thinking about when he turned me on to the concepts that jerked me Clear around in my tracks.

 

Cool Edit 96 noise reduction we've covered so on to >>>Roland's VG-8 doesn't have 6 individual outputs. I don't know about the VG-88. But as too tuning and stereo pan, these have been features of the VG line for at least 5 years.<<< I don't know (not having units in my hand). But the Fanout box can take the six cleaned up tracks and redeliver them into VG-88 as though they were coming in realtime from the guitar (even though the original guitarist is long gone). This really is a viable solution to my original query.

 

You close with >>>You can achieve this by recording each chord separately and tuning to match the sweet spot of each. It sounds terrible. I've tried it in Acid, just to see if I could put together a rhythm track from individual hits.<<< I'm going to agree with you without telling you why just yet. I'm not being coy, but all things in good time. Great input, fantasticsound!

 

I've saved the best for last. Miroslav reminds me of the hidden genie in the mountain in science fiction. Wherever you go you feel him right behind you, dogging your steps and sometimes two jumps ahead of you. I don't know who you are from Adam, Miroslav, but you have serious grey matter chops, and I salute you. To those up on this thread: Remember Miroslav asked

>>>I just want to know why? To what point? I am usually very open minded.<<

And I fobbed him off with a quote from KBP and (the genie had so rattled my cage) I lost my marbles and introduced the battle between sloppy artists and Steely Dan as a diversion to hold Miroslav at bay.

But today like a bulldog he's right back chewing on my leg >>>It sounds like you knowingly WANT to record an out of tune guitar and then have this "box" tune it for you after the fact...why?<<<

The genie is definitely coming down off his mountain now. But fortunately for all of us I'm about ready to step out of the closet and tell everyone what I'm really up to here. The answer is: I need help & big time. There are forces swirling all around me and I could sure use all the genies throwing their intellectual weight my way. So Miroslav I'll be back in a later (I hope before tomorrow) big post to lay the cards out on the table.

The good news is if this all pans out, I may turn out to be the benevolent old wacko on the tv show who sent his minions around to hand out money to strangers. Hopefully I've earned a little credibility on this. Money for our kind of people. For doing what the artists always did. Create. Remember what the politician said... When they start talking that it's not about the money, Well.. It's about the money. Well I'm telling you the opposite. Unbelievable as it seems. I'm talking billions with a B to be divvied up. You'll catch on later.

 

If I'd come online initially and tossed out what I'm about to, the genies would have not been able to get me in focus enough to see through the hellfire and deal with me straight up. By starting this thread I've set the lay of the ground as all good armies must do. But unlike Napoleon I don't exactly want to end up on Elba with a bitter taste in my mouth. I think we can win the coming war, but I want you guys to examine the plan. As McArthur said. I will return.

Friends, cut me some slack & stay with this thread. Bring a few friends to this forum. (And for the third time, please somebody get Popsong back.)

 

I won't disappoint......

 

This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-27-2001 at 06:04 PM

[wilpye]

I'm sorry, my wife has started reading the thread and she's accidently been calling Popmusic: (Popsong) He's been gone so long I picked up her habit. We both stand corrected and I apologize. Later gators.

[Master Zap]

Dont dismiss the cooledit angle just yet.

 

The fact that the program could *remove* a sound from complex sound also means that it (obviously) could DETECT it.

 

So the internal technology used inside the program could form the basis for what we are after.

 

You can even do a poor-mans approach of what we want like so:

 

Example:

 

1. I have guitar chord with bad note

2. I play bad note on my guitar

3. I use cooledit and teach it this bad note is "noise"

4. I proceed to REMOVE this "noise" from the take

5. I now have the take sans bad note

6. Now I SUBTRACT this take-sans-bad note from the whole take and will get... voila.... THE BAD NOTES ONLY

7. I now auto-tune the bad notes

8. ...and add back the tuned bad notes to the take-sans-bad-notes

 

et voila

 

/Z

 

This message has been edited by Master Zap on 06-08-2001 at 05:22 PM

[wilpye]

Zap, some quick ruminations. (And you know I'm the last fella to be negative on this.)

It's step 2. Let's replace step 2 with a program that has to identify 'out of tune' notes. With your step 2. you're cheating & telling it the bad frequency to concentrate on. OK here we go. Now we're past the cheating stage.

As the program stalks up and down the target file, it has to be able to extract (initially not wonderfully well) several notes to start calculating what is off relative to the target master tuning. That's where this super large database starts to be necessary. Either the program has to generate a flood of variations on the spot to compare a questioned frequency to (incredibly slow), or it has to have a database (to run to) to use for comparative purposes (much faster). Eventually the program reaches step 3. It has settled down and knows what is "noise". (Noise meaning a targeted frequency that is off to the desired standard)

At step 4, we realize that only if we have deconstructed all six pitches can we reliably remove this offender (to the standards of todays audiophile, not the MP3 crowd)

Now that 'only if' is subject to challenge, but I've racked my brains trying to get around it (see my earlier reference about the growth of the 3rd feed to the algoR) It's the high frequencies that would gut your premise.

 

And it's here we need that bad boy algoR as I also mentioned earlier to split these six pitches. Identifying the rotten eggs is not the problem, its taking apart the white and not leaving the yolk.

 

I am encouraged by your pursuit of this, and I'm not even thinking of backing off the utility of this magic polyphonic AutoTune. But from talking privately to Antares & the others, they don't even have a miniscule motivation to start lumbering their R&D onto this. And I'm more interested in the short term.

Darn right I think they're going to get motivated right fast to do this when the proper moons & planets are in conjunction. Maybe you can help line those orbs up, Zap. You've got spunk mixed with your ferocity.

Gotta go.

 

This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-27-2001 at 06:07 PM

[WFTurner]

Well well the thinkin-storm is still on huh?

I'll have to sort it all out in the morning.

Been trackin guitar, which I seemed to be tuning

more than trackin. Ain't that something.

To toasted to think now!

 

I did see something about ambulances and turning blue.

What the hell's goin on in you're neck of the woods wilpye?

 

 

 

 

------------------

William F. Turner

Songwriter

turnermusic

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by wilpye:

Now on to fantasticsound's post....

 

Enough about Steely Dan already. I was just trying to show a musical example of somebody who gives a damn. Not hold Fagan (and me by referenced association) up to ridicule...

 

I was not ridiculing you or Steely Dan, Wilpye. You talk about precision in regards to Steely Dan, but I don't believe Becker or Fagan would ever use this program, if and when it is viable. But, Ok, that's the last time I'll attempt to explain myself regarding your statement.

 

...Roland's VG-8 doesn't have 6 individual outputs. I don't know about the VG-88. But as to tuning and stereo pan, these have been features of the VG line for at least 5 years.<<< I don't know (not having units in my hand).

 

I do know. You can process every string independently on these units. On the VG-8 I know they have only stereo output. It was never meant to pass to an amp or recording as separate channels.

 

But the Fanout box can take the six cleaned up tracks and redeliver them into VG-88 as though they were coming in realtime from the guitar (even thoughthe original guitarist is long gone). This really is a viable solution to my original query...

 

Viable, maybe, but certainly impractical. As has been mentioned, why not simply overdub or redo the entire track?

 

Unless.. this is intended for looped material, where the musician may not know how to play anything but a computer keyboard, and therefore can't overdub anything. I dread your finding a market on this basis, by itself.

 

...You close with >>>You can achieve this by recording each chord separately and tuning to match the sweet spot of each. It sounds terrible. I've tried it in Acid, just to see if I could put together a rhythm track from individual hits.<<< I'm going to agree with you without telling you why just yet. I'm not being coy, but all things in good time. Great input, fantasticsound!

 

Lets not forget that the 4th harmonic and beyond on a string are not perfectly tuned to the fundamental and first couple of harmonics. (Once again that pesky string mass/tension issue!) What you'd achieve is much like playing the piano with only one fingering for each chord, though the analogy is far from perfect. I hope you understand where I'm going with it.

 

Thank you very much. Based on the last bit below, I can't wait to see exactly what you're up to...? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/confused.gif Hmmmmm.....?

 

The thread has taken an interesting turn. This, like arguements regarding;

 

• effects
  
• tuning vox
  
• overdubbing
  
• multi-track
  
• cassette multi's for the masses

 

They always seem to focus on how the new technology will screw everything up. But over the years all these and many other technologies have been used to enhance our music and the art of recording it. They are all now acceptable. I still don't like where this appears to be heading.

 

...I've saved the best for last. Miroslav reminds me of the hidden genie in the mountain in science fiction. Wherever you go you feel him right behind you, dogging your steps and sometimes two jumps ahead of you. I don't know who you are from Adam, Miroslav, but you have serious grey matter chops, and I salute you...

 

...Friends, cut me some slack & stay with this thread. Bring a few friends to this forum (and for the third time, please somebody get Popsong back),

 

I won't dissapoint......

 

Ok... enquiring minds want to know!!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

(The Nightmare Before Christmas)

 

Mad Scientist: Curiosity killed the cat, you know!

 

Jack (enthusiastically): I know!!!

 

Waiting with baited typing skills! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

------------------

Neil

 

Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.

 

This message has been edited by fantasticsound on 06-08-2001 at 10:02 PM

[Guest]

Originally posted by WFTurner:

I haven't had one at my disposal for a long time, but check with pedal steel players they'll tell you you can't tune your pedal bends to perfect pitch. Chords just don't sound good.

 

The same thing is true of any polyphonic instrument. The standard piano tuning used now is a series of compromises to allow transposing music into any of the 12 keys.

 

It is possible to tune a piano so it ONLY has perfect pitch in the key of G, for example. I believe it's called 'just intonation'. (Perfect pitch, in this case, means that there is an *exact* ratio of integers between the frequencys of the root and each note in the scale, such as 3/2, 6/5, etc.

 

Standard intonation 'bends' these ratios so *no* key sounds perfect, but they are all equally screwed up to allow for the transposing thing I mentioned.

 

I recall there used to be a program listed in an Edirol catalog that would do this to keyboard synths on the fly, though I can't recall the name of it at the moment.

 

- Philbo

Tangent Music

[st00ts]

wilpye, all I know is that you've probably written 20,000 words in all your responses http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Never give up. Never surrender.

[wilpye]

fantasticsound! Darn it, not you too. We (you & I) have got to do a more complete Vulcan mind meld. You of all people I assume I don't have to talk overblown English to. Imagine that we've known each other 20 or 40 years instead of a few days. I'm talking to you (as I was before) like I'd talk to my only brother LLoyd. Don't get riled by what- I- don't- say,

and please remember the limitations of the English language. Look at the mess it got me into with Popmusic. I've looked at his archived posts back to when he started. What a great soul, and I've ( I guess) lost him with a discussion that centered around Steely Dan. I totally was referencing back to what hiraga posted 06-07-2001 10:01 PM. when I said >>>Enough about Steely Dan.<<<

I just failed to say I agree totally with you with one caveat: Fagan would not use the magic box BASED ON WHAT HE WOULD HAVE HEARD SO FAR if he was following the thread.

Hopefully hiraga is still with us in good spirit. But he really dissed Steely Dan (And I'm not bitching. It's his right to speak his mind.) But if I'd never brought S. Dan up this wouldn't have happened. That's what I was grieving over, nothing- you- said. Remember, I mentioned earlier in the thread I wasn't much of an asskisser so don't think I'm stroking you. You and Zap pulled me out of a deep funk this morning by putting your noses (& mine) to the grindstone. It means mucha to me. I was an inch from bailing off the thread.

 

You go on to say >>> Viable, maybe, but certainly impractical. As has been mentioned, why not simply overdub or redo the entire track?<<< Overdubbing won't allow me to tune the strings to my tastes. Remember, my tastes are not (at the moment) your tastes. Naturally the VG-8 & VG-88 are useless for our separation of strings, that's what the Fanout box is for. Do you see now that I never (when I referenced it) intended the VG-88 as anything more than what it always was; a box to churn up a rather naked sound into something ultra. So outputs etc that these Roland products have are irrelevant to the following:

 

The goal I introduced is to individually process the strings to our desired ends (whatever we agree that is) and return them into a mono track (if we want to) that now is to all apparent intents and purposes sludge free. So why do you say this is impractical? Re-read my post about the Fanout box 06-07-2001 03:37 AM if necessary. It seems (almost) exactly what I asked for. Out of hex pickup guitar into Fanout box and into 6 discrete tracks with the 7th tk. as a mono timing and sound reference of the guitarist's intent. ((Unless you've got a Farrington guitar. Use that directly into the computer.))

Process (with AutoTune or other programs) all sludge as desired, and mix down the 6 tks in a computer's stereo or mono environment. Or you can reroute out of the computer back into any analog board, mix it there, and deliver it as a processed mono signal into whatever rig the guitarist was originally using to recreate as best you can his 'sound'; Reverb settings, crunch, whatever. Sounds practical to me.

 

Now if your brother really was talking to you like I just did, you hopefully would say sweetly "alright wil"", and either contest the issue and try to drag me to my senses as brothers will do, or move off your old position and join mine, or keep your old opinion and I keep mine. And we smile and go about our other business.

 

So fantasticsound, remember I love my brother Lloyd, and I've got plenty more to go around. We all want to be appreciated, and that's a worthy goal. Please don't go for my jugular (as I know you wouldn't) like some forum members (as in the cruel world) are waiting to do when somebody disagrees with their ivory tower positions. And a lesson I try to hold especially close is: Don't see conflicts where there are none. I was actually joking with you when I said enough about Steely Dan. And look how you misinterpreted what I said as though I was lighting into you. (Remember I'm treating you as if I've known you over 40 years so it follows that) Ridicule is not in your vocabulary. And my brother would never treat me like that.

 

I'm ready to drop a position on a dime if I see the light. It's so darn hard to do, especially the older you get. Miroslav has an open mind, and he sure has filled it well. We all can learn from him. As forum brothers & sisters, the goal is to get our minds in tune as well as our instruments, as best we can. Not turn our ears like schallers till our minds are squallin like wet diapered babies.

 

A long post on trivial matters to some, but vital to me & you.

 

You close with >>>I still don't like where this appears to be heading.<<< You nor a lot of people. But you actually will like where we're heading (I'm feeling bold on your behalf fantasticsound) when I take off those silly blindfolds real- soon- now.

 

philbo Saw your post. I mentioned just intonation back in the thread and said I'd be glad to discuss it with anyone. The program you mentioned was from a company called Justonic, who I think still have a website. I also said, any mention of it is likely to cause many a forum member to head for the exits.... Hey, it was good enough for Pythagoras.

 

st00ts Never give up, never surrender. You and I are in tune already. I hope some of those 20,000 words hit a few good eyeballs other than yours. I'm hopin.

 

I may not be back on til late tomorrow. (Saturday). I'm getting phone-buddy advice I should close this thread at some point soon and open a new one for the major topics to come. Maybe Popmusic would drop in by accident. But let's all remember rule # 1.

Nobody mentions Stevie Wonder!

 

 

This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-27-2001 at 06:15 PM

[KBP]

A guitar with optical outs on it would be cool. What about optical ins on a guitar with 4 pickups, the regular 2 and then reversed ones that passed inputed sounds out through the pickup vibrating the strings then reprossesing it through the regular pickups?

 

KBP

[Master Zap]

To be specific, I wasn't meaning to actually use cooledit. I was just demonstrating that the string-sound-extraction-from-mess-of-same is theoretically possible, although cooledits results has some flaws. I bet you can set up a higher resolution on the FFT if you want to. But will it ever stand up to "audiophile" stanrads. Meknows not!!

 

(Interjection: On the third hand, will that matter? Whatever you get out is a part of the original sound. After pitching and re-compositing, you are putting ALL components back together again, like humpty dumpty.)

 

The matter is "simply" of detecting the bad one and extracting it. With a fine enough comb filter one shalt prolly be able to calculate whereth the harmonics should be and just take the suckers out. (Cooledit sorta "proves" it's "doable"), fix, and paste back in. But the fine-toothedness of the comb must be very very very fine.

 

I am also joining the choir of inquiring minds over what you ACTUALLY want to use this for. As an intellectual excercise it's very fun. But actual use? Have you found some old tapes of John Lennon rehersals that have a badly tuned string that you want to sell for Billions with a capital B?

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

/Z

[wilpye]

KBP. The man who started it all. I hear you!

Are you saying (through the optical ins) take the cleaned up sound (very naked similar to how it left the guitar) back from the AutoTune and inject it back into the guitar to let the guitar pickups imprint their own coloration onto the sound. (Since the hex pick-ups certainly can't deliver for example that rosy Les Paul sound you get from those particular pick-ups.)

Or are you saying actually figure a way with optical outs to already have the individual string waveforms imprinted with quality pick-up colorations rather than the thin sound the hex's generate. Hmmmmmmm Am I there? The latter of course would be a better way of doing the Farrington guitar you heard of, once in a lullaby.

 

If I'm off your train of thought, straighten me out. (My current idea was that the computer program would have plug-ins to make the thin clean hex pickup sound be colored in the computer to match any pick-up model combo you could want.)

 

Master Zap says >>>To be specific, I wasn't meaning to actually use cooledit. I was just demonstrating that the string-sound-extraction-from-mess-of-same is theoretically possible<<<

I assumed that. Using it to pioneer the recipe for the wedding cake.

 

>>>But the fine-toothedness of the comb must be very very very fine.<<<

Its not the comb, its those lice that get left behind. What needs to come with the fundamental waves are not actual components of the primo waves. And your comb will be slicing the dumplings out of those combinational overtones. Gotta get those dumplings out intact so they can be altered intact along with the fundamental gravy. (You can tell from all these food references I'm hungry as I write this.)

 

No old tapes of John Lennon, but you're kinda almost getting warmer.

 

Zap, humor me with a theoretical scenario. Kinda like a fable you heard when you were a kid. Imagine I'm a Bill Gates type, and I've got a few Billion stashed away for my favorite charity. As an eccentric whim, I decide to offer a matching program to all creative types. Whatever you earn from your next hit (or not so big hit) record from your favorite Performing Rights Organization (either ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC) out of the goodness of my heart I'll match it dollar for dollar. I'm vain, and to earn these matching funds all you've got to do is run your waveforms through this little box or whatever, as long as you tune your music the wilpye way. In tune. Remember my post with WFTurner, if it's my nickel, I call the shots. If it's your nickel, you call the shots. So you're doing this to get my nickle.

Now I'm not messing with your music in the slightest, other than asking you to tune some frequencies so they don't offend my ears.

 

Now this is a free and clear offer. (I don't care if you're doing rap, heavy metal, or even opera. Art is art.) No one has a gun to your head. You certainly can reject it and do it your old way and not get the matching funds.

But Damn it's tempting so you say "Well if I don't have to compromise my musical intent I'll try it and take a listen". And in the privacy of your own studio you process your tune to my specifications. And you (for free of course) register it with my money disbursers so they know where to send the checks, and they listen to it & say yep, wil you're not gonna have to listen to sludge from this guy. (In fact, my minions at the trustfund are instructed to turn no one away, as long as the song is done according to plan. But you must be an American citizen. No one else need attempt to register. I'm not anti-immigrant at all, but the line had to be drawn somewhere.)

 

And you yourself think, "you know Ole wil sure is weird, I can barely hear a difference. But it 'is' cleaner. And you're happy. And you & your record label release that song. And darned if it isn't a semi-hit. And you get checks from ASCAP for $21,000 over the first year. And true to his word old wil and his trust minions send you your matching funds right on time. As a matter of fact (using predictive formulas) even faster and more efficiently than ASCAP.

You're amazed; MONEY FOR NOTHING & THE CHECKS FOR FREE.

 

You don't sign anything away. There is no legal catch. I wouldn't want a blinkin thing from you other than if you join my association of friends you grant me my one request and do it my way.

And I'm not even in the studio Burpin and Scratchin & holding my nose when you repeat the chorus three times. Artistically it's totally your ballgame, same as it ever was...

 

Zap, if I really don't mess with your production, and I just ask you to make sure it's in tune to my requirements. Would you do it?

 

Mind you this is just a little exercise in what people will do for money from a rich relative of sorts.....

 

Not just Zap, anybody else out there, lets get a few other forum replies if you care to jump in.

 

As long as you're satisfied your music sounds no worse than before. Shoot, maybe even better. After all, this guy is obviously OBSESSED with tuning (just read this thread).

And if he thinks it sounds better, what the hell?......

 

Would you take the guarantee and record your songs my way for cash? Just to make an incredibly rich vain old fart satisfy his desire to listen to his friends play music tuned just for him. Rather than give his Billions with a B away to a pack of rapacious lawyers and the government.

 

There's only one sad little bit of business. When he dies it all (the trust he's set up on all his friends behalf) comes to an end. The payments terminate. And you look him over, and he's still looking pretty sharp. You figure if the cards fall right, he could even live a good 15 or 20 more years. When he's not alive & loses his ability (in theory) to listen to your music, the green cascade of Ben Franklins ends, and as usual the government cleans up on anything left.

So there's actually one more thing in it for him. There'll be one heck of a lot of people praying real hard he keeps his ticker outperforming the energizer bunny.

No, this is not a script for some Dan Akroyd movie.

For the person who never sees money from a Performing Rights Organization, I can't help you.

But for everyone who does, I repeat:

MONEY FOR NOTHING & THE CHECKS FOR FREE. Who wants some?

 

 

 

This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-27-2001 at 06:19 PM

[WFTurner]

Well dang wilpye, must say you have a knack for keeping a thread

interesting.

 

On a non theoretical note, there ain't nothing monetary happening

with my particular flavor of art and with a seemingly ever

diminishing light on my particular horizon it don't appear there's

gonna be, so, the money incentive you've thrown in the discussion

is a mute point in my participation of this ongoing thread.

 

Back to the theoretical:

 

I think we both know I don't want this new marvel of a contraption

used on my guitar tracks. Theoretically if there was a chance to

cash in on the money program, I would hope I would have the integrity to

say no.... but who knows about the human mentallity when it smells

free cash huh?

 

In reality, if you had this marvelous program I just might be interested

in it, but, in a way that would probably drive you bananna's! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

I'm very interested in and have this personal study going on with using

todays modern day electronica resources to create older contemporary

styles of music.... always on a quest for ways to humanize sterile and

too perfect sounding synthetic tracks.

 

Like you, I'd find it interesting to seperate notes from tracks.. but to

sour them a bit not sweeten them. Randomly put an X number of notes a bit

out of tune. Would you kindly put that feature in the program?

 

Maybe to expand just a bit further.... if we

can teach this program to recognize noises, etc, once it learns the quirky subtle noises

that an human and his instrument makes they can be randomly added to synthetic music in a

quest for reality.

 

Hehehehe http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

 

------------------

William F. Turner

Songwriter

turnermusic

 

This message has been edited by WFTurner on 06-09-2001 at 09:23 AM

[fantasticsound]

Wilpye, I understand. Sometimes written correspondance doesn't traslate well between strangers. Enough said on that.

 

I'm not sure I'd have a chance to cash in, either. Still interested.

 

The Ferrington, FYI, that Kramer marketed was strictly stereo at the output, but there's no reason it couldn't have been modified to achieve 6 channel output.. nuff said on that as well.

 

I think the optical in idea is a way to implement Midi to sequence a guitar part and have the guitar play itself, ala midi keyboard and sequencers. Is this correct?

 

------------------

Neil

 

Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.

[Master Zap]

There are a couple of problems here.

 

a: I dont use guitars. I'm a strictly synthetic kinda guy

 

b: I'm not an US citizen

 

Pity huh? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

/Z

[wilpye]

WF comes online with a request >>>Like you, I'd find it interesting to separate notes from tracks.. but to sour them a bit not sweeten them. Randomly put an X number of notes a bit

out of tune. Would you kindly put that feature in the program?<<< And >>> if you had this marvelous program<<<

 

WF, you've got it. If laughing makes you live longer, you've done the trick as of yesterday. I may really make 20 more years so you can keep me chucklin all the way.

And as a special treat for you, so you can share in my gift giving, yes we can make it so the major third on a triad is tuned down 4 cents exactly the way you want. Your big power E chords will still knock you out 'same as it ever was'. (I assume that's what you're talking about when say a bit out of tune.) That's OK with me. And of course it will be marvelous! Anything less would be uncivilized...

Also you want to add >>>the quirky subtle noises that an human and his instrument makes (so) they can be randomly added to synthetic music in a quest for reality. Hehehehe <<<

Don't prod the ogre with too big a stick, WF.

Well, when we finalize what this new tuning system does in a legal fashion (still continuing the trustfund fairytale) so the boundaries are known for all applicants, surely we should be able to include that particular request, as long as we're not dumping sludge back into the finished track. By the way, to my ears sludge pretty much really is having two pitches of the same name family out of tune with each other more than about 2 cents, as others speculated earlier in the thread.

I don't mean momentarily, like a cool string bending effect. Anyone want to argue that 2 cent boundary?

I hope not. Nothing contributes to out of tuneness to me faster than that. If you're playing a detuned effect momentarily for a few measures, I can live with that (you know for chorusing) but to have a song grinding away needlessly with what any panel of experts would call sludge is yuk to me. And before everyone starts screaming censorship!, remember, I'm just trying to set up some actual rules so people can apply for their money.

I'm trying to be helpful here. Remember, this is a tuning givaway after all. I want a system where I get what I want & the applicants don't have to feel they are selling out and only doing it for the money. I want happy friends on board. Later, I'll tell you why I think we actually can do this. Workable rules for a money giveaway....that is.

 

fantasticsound... Oh, my mistake. I thought the Ferrington had 6 outputs, one for each string. Well shoot, it should have. Not much good to us otherwise.

>>>I think the optical in idea is a way to implement Midi to sequence a guitar part and have the guitar play itself, ala midi keyboard and sequencers. Is this correct?<<<

Yes! surely that's what he meant. But let's wait & see what KBP says....

 

Zap, on both counts you're not thinking very creatively. Not a pity at all...

Remember I said even opera. Those upper crust Pavarotti (who I enjoy, by the way) types don't use much guitar either. Keyboards are fine, just don't infringe the boundaries of the tuning system.

And you're surely not letting this citizenship thing stop you. People are always trying to cash in insurance policies for 'neck trauma' after a car accident. I won't tell you blatantly, but if you want to get in on this money giveaway, surely you can figure something out. For tax writeoff purposes, the boundaries of the giveaway must be defined in a legal fashion.

 

(Oh, to hell with not being blatant. Hint: Is a corporation considered a 'person' in US law?)

 

This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-27-2001 at 06:23 PM

[KBP]

Well that could be one way to look at it, and that is another way. But I actually was thinking on using my optical ins as a way to send non guitar related stuff to the guitar using it as just another effect. Like drums/keys/vocals, They would probobly have a very far off sound. Now if you ran other things into the guitar while playing the guitar as well, Hmmmmm all kinds of neat things you can do. It is the same kind of theory as using a talkbox or vocoder or using side chains for gates/eq or what ever. Maybe it would work maybe it would be a waste of time I don't know. I myself am a guitar player / producer and am in a state of sickness about always having to have certain instruments in songs. I hate the band/sound that you get stuck with and the annoying fact that most players can only play there instrument and have to play that instrument in everysong through out the whole song.

 

KBP

 

PS What you are talking about is very much like the trick of improving a snare sound by laying an amp on it's back running you're current snare through it, putting another snare drum on top of the amp and then mic that.

[wilpye]

KBP! You are indeed as out- of- the- box a thinker as I've ever come across. I sure wish I had more of that myself, but with you around I'm in good shape. Stay with this thread whatever else you do.

 

As for >>>to send non guitar related stuff to the guitar using it as just another effect.<<<

I don't see a tie-in with the tuning angle, but I'm sure these kinds of directions you're thinking about will pull you out of your state of sickness (about tired old ruts musicians get in).

I'm hoping the tuning conceptions I'm into will kind of open some doors for band members looking to revitalize the reflections of their own perceptions.

 

(Look out WF, I'm becoming a poet. You young songwriter boys have got nothin on me! Even ones missing a few teeth.)

 

 

 

This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-27-2001 at 06:26 PM

[KBP]

Thanx man, I actually do think about alot of "out of the box" type of stuff but have for the last couple of years been stifled by the corperate world of not taking chances and experimenting. I myself have become more of a template type of doer and am starting to revolt in my own head about this subject. But for fu*ks sake check out this company I just found that they sell a pick up, though not exactly what you're talking about here is along the same lines.

 

http://www.lightwave-systems.com/what/

 

Peace KBP

[WFTurner]

>>Don't prod the ogre with too big a stick, WF.<<

 

Hey I've grown to like you so the proddin is just to

encourage you and your software to be all you can be.

If you get the engine and the database to feed it

info working to fix pitch on guitars, it shouldn't

be much effort from that point to make it do anything

related to sound after that.

 

If you got Bill Gate's type of resources, go at it like Bill Gates....

well not exactly... work the bugs out before you release it http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Young my ass. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

The only thing I see young is this grandkid sittin on

my knee.

 

 

 

 

 

------------------

William F. Turner

Songwriter

turnermusic

 

This message has been edited by WFTurner on 06-09-2001 at 11:50 PM

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by KBP:

...check out this company I just found that they sell a pick up, though not exactly what you're talking about here is along the same lines.

 

http://www.lightwave-systems.com/what/

 

Peace KBP

 

 

The interesting thing is, KBP, Lightwave offers the new circuit board designed for expansion into various signal processing and soon to come midi options. Not far from adding a firewire port for direct recording and outboard processing you seek.

 

Actually, this brings up another thought. (Hope this isn't too far astray for you, Wilpye.) You could incorporate the tuning correction into the pickup system in a very ingenious way.

 

Let's say you play a ___ note. The program would ensure it was perfectly tuned. Now say you play a combination of notes (a chord) Teach the program to recognize triads and complex chords in different keys, and it could retune the output ON THE FLY before exiting the guitar, analog or digital to amp or recording! How's THEM apples???

 

Your stand alone program, Wil, would be icing on the cake. The more important point, perhaps, is that you could choose your tuning and ALWAYS stay in tune, so long as you were within X amount from the actual pitch. (Obviously, after a point, it would tune to the next note up/down from the one you wanted if you were severely out of tune. That would take a considerable screw up, however.)

 

This could be achieved, with or without a bidirectional interface. You could burn a daughter board for the pickup system with the tuning program on it.

 

What do you think?

 

------------------

Neil

 

Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.

[wilpye]

KBP blows my mind again >>>But for fu*ks sake check out this company. I just found that they sell a pick up, though not exactly what you're talking about here along the same lines.>>>

 

Bony Maroni! You should have spelled that 4-letter word in 14 point type. This is an incredible product (from reading everything from their admittedly biased web site). Another site our forum members can jump to is

http://www.globalbass.com/archives/sept2000/lightwave_system.htm

for an informative interview with 2 executives.

 

Let me boil the web site down for those who want the cliff notes version:

This is a new guitar (or bass) that operates with an optical pickup that senses the movement of a string (by projecting a beam of infrared light across its width and then "reading" the dynamic shadow created by the vibrating string). The LightWave audio PC Board has two sockets to accommodate a variety of optional daughter-boards that can be customized. Here's a quote "With this daughter-board configuration, we are open to whatever people or manufacturers may approach us with. The system really works well with hexaphonic applications."  

They should be able to quickly produce a daughterboard with six analog outs. (Since each string's signal starts out and stays analog throughout.)

 

This would eliminate the need for a bulky Fanbox as discussed earlier in the thread. WOW. The specs on this innovation are incredible, but the bottom line is, unlike a magnetopick-up (which has a 'curve') the frequency response is flat as a pancake, which can be bent in our computers to mimic any old style pickup known to man....but without a shred of hum or buzz ever being introduced. WOW again. (They already have a daughterboard with a midi 13 pin jack that could be sent to a Fanbox as usual, but hey... That's a fifth leg on our mule. Totally unnecessary)

The drawback: This thing is only offered on high end product.

(But you get what you pay for.)

 

KBP you keep rockin my world.

 

WF sez >>> the proddin is just to encourage you and your software to be all you can be.<<<

You keepa proddin, I'll keep a ploddin....

 

>>>If you got Bill Gate's type of resources<<< Least anyone get distracted, in actual fact I'm more like the guy who at Thanksgiving has inherited a humongo (billions with a B) still growing pumpkin who has decided to give most of it to the really hungry & needy. But that & other real world situations (left unsaid) wouldn't have been as easy to comprehend in the verbal imagery.

Soon enough I'll start a new thread and you can compare back to my fable to Zap & see what was fact & what was coloration intended to get some concepts rolling. Will artists change their tuning for a cash incentive? Is there really for once in a crazy world a free lunch? History and common sense say no.

 

Most observers (99%) of the thread (who are also mostly gone for now I'm sure) think I'm a posturing lunatic. Well by gosh we'll see. But with friends united, we can & will not fail to each get what we can reach.

(Darn it, WF There I go 'rhymin' again. When are you gonna set some of this swill to music?????)

 

fantasticsound. You & I are mighty close to convergence. >>>Let's say you play a ___ note. The program would ensure it was perfectly tuned.<<<

 

For a live situation, yes I darn sure see your point. Bring the computer to the daughterboard. It would have to run six gutted AutoTune miniprograms dedicated to a set function (scale), but it would sure work. It's nothing more than running code through a compactor to get it down to daughterboard size.

 

>>>with or without a bidirectional interface<<< 'With' would be just as easy (costwise) to have incorporated into the design, because sometimes you're going to want to do things with the raw pick-up output over at the computer. You know, a 'serious' recording session where the asshole producer wants to redo the parts. (Yes WF, second guess the artist bouncing off the walls.)

 

fantasticsound, I'm impressed. What a good night this has been.

Let me run with this....

 

 

This message has been edited by wilpye on 06-10-2001 at 03:24 AM