Tedster Posted May 2, 2001 Share Posted May 2, 2001 I thought I'd start a new thread with this... Craig wrote: >>>For me, I go with the after inspiration comes the discipline required to edit, fix, and improve. The biggest problem, as we all know, is knowing when to STOP MESSING WITH THE TUNE. You don't want to be like white bread and refine out all the good stuff. >>>Sometimes errors work, and sometimes they're the catchiest elements of a composition. And sometimes they don't. How about a list of familiar "hits" with sections that don't work...but got radio airplay anyway... I'll give an example from the 80s pop charts...Lionel Richie "Say You, Say Me"...it's sort of a slow, "trying to be inspirational" ballad. All of a sudden, not really a bridge, the whole song jumps up in tempo without any logical segue, goes in to this fast brass arrangement, and for no equally good reason, slows back down. This part of the song IMHO doesn't fit at all, and if I'd been the dude in charge, I would have snipped it out. Of course, it always helped in the 80s to have a name like Lionel Richie. Any other obvious "warts on the rear end" of familiar tunes? "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricknbokker Posted May 2, 2001 Share Posted May 2, 2001 God, that song used to irk the hell out of me! My feelings exactly. How they let that one by is a mystery to me. I once heard a DJ play it at a wedding reception, and everybody's slow dancin', then it gets to that part, and all of a sudden nobody knew what to do! I know there's a lot more tunes like it, but I just got off work so my mind is fried. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 2, 2001 Share Posted May 2, 2001 OK, HOW in the world did "MacArthur Park" by Richard Harris EVER become a Number One hit? Everyone concerned, including the producer and the audience, must've been on acid. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricknbokker Posted May 2, 2001 Share Posted May 2, 2001 Dig THAT!!! And that whole Donna Summer thing certainly didn't help matters any! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif However, that song just sucked. It DID make sense in regards to it's 'suckiness'. No weird marimba break in 6/8 time or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippie Posted May 3, 2001 Share Posted May 3, 2001 How's about John Cougar Mellencamp's version of "I need a lover", that song has about the dumbest "garage band" structure, it's like a C/A/B/C/B/C arrangement, which I don't think even early Pink Floyd did! -Hippie In two days, it won't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted May 3, 2001 Share Posted May 3, 2001 Originally posted by Lee Flier: OK, HOW in the world did "MacArthur Park" by Richard Harris EVER become a Number One hit? Everyone concerned, including the producer and the audience, must've been on acid. --Lee Sorry Lee, maybe I was a nutzo caraazy kid, but I always liked the arrangement on that thing, and it's a very melodic tune. A little overdramatic lyrically, but who hasn't felt that way at some time or another? Maybe I'm just too romantic. ==flamesuit - check!== Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman1ovation.net Posted May 3, 2001 Share Posted May 3, 2001 Flame suit ON... Helmet SECURED... "OK, O'Keefe no sense in ya goin' in there alone. We lose a lotta good men that way!" Frankly, I think maybe this is more about ways of emoting than it is music. MacArthur Park happened during a time of upheaval, and as it turns out, whether everyone was actually on acid or not http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif, that period was a trip. Aside from the televised upheaval, there was a silent groan happening, and whether it was societal or personal, I think a lot of people wondered if they would ever have the "recipe" again. So here comes Richard Harris' staid voice (accent) going all to pieces in an admittedly melodramatic way, and it was as if everyone's stoicism got a little bit of relief. And before that relief from admitting aloud "Omigod, I'm screwed" even got a chance to settle in, hope reared its head... "there will be another song for me, and I will sing it". In a way, it was like some TV commercial that makes people cry as long as nobody's watching! And a couple of minutes later, after considering the Fifth Avenue button pushing that made them grab for the Kleenex, they're laughing. MacArthur Park broke rules. I mean, the 3:00 minute barrier had already been broken, but this was way out there! It was like a little operetta. I know it was a love/hate thing at the time. But I think that hate was really more directed at the schmaltz; not the music. Even though I salivated at each Pavlovian segue like a good puppy when MacArthur Park was released, it wasn't too long before I recognized the conditioning "bell" and stopped dehydrating on command! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif BUT, I still recognize the art of that musical roller coaster, and the poignant lyrics that touched a nerve in millions of people. Sure, I know that when it was released, there were people saying to themselves, "I'm not buying this! What is this melting cake bull$#!t?!" They weren't responsible for pushing it to #1. Call it corny, silly, or schmaltzy if you like; but I think Jimmy Webb's a powerful writer of melody, harmony, structure and lyric. And MacArthur Park was just his successful effort at a pop operetta; a genre that by its very nature is something a great many people, possibly including Lee, don't particularly like. Pavlov would've probably had to take Lee and the other non-droolers back to the pound in order to avoid screwing up his psychological/scientific statistics. But not to worry... we'll spring you folks! After all, we're easy marks! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Hehehe... But ask us drooling pups, and you'll find out that Jimmy hit the nail on the head! Please note: I'm refraining from including Phil in that list of drooling pups (that's for him to do), because there's really a lot of distance betwixt slobbering canines (and well, hell... count me in!) and the sophistication (or whatever the trait is) that keeps such emotional ploys from working on Lee and others. By the way... anyone that likes Jimmy Webb songs should give themselves an AMAZING treat, and buy the CD, "Ten Easy Pieces", which he released in 1996. It's a real dark horse. Most every song you've ever heard that he's written is recorded/sung by him, and the arrangements are simple, elegant and neautiful. I think he used a digital piano, and his piano playing is tops. He brings out new colors and emotions... on a more sophisticated level to be sure. It's really quite wonderful. Each song living up to its potential in a very pure way. The last cut is MacArthur Park. And it ain't your daddy's MacArthur Park. Nor would it have probably been a hit the way the Richard Harris version was back when. Lee, no kidding... I would love to hear your reaction to MacArthur park as performed by Jimmy Webb. Believe me, it is a totally different animal. When it gets to its peaks, you'll no doubt be way less inclined to say, "Easy there, big boy." http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Oh, and Phil, if you like the original (and you must to some extent or you wouldn't be sitting around with me in these flame retardant suits!), I think you'll greatly appreciate it. "Galveston" suddenly makes a lot more sense, too. TEN EASY PIECES Jimmy Webb 1. Galveston 2. Highwayman 3. Wichita Lineman 4. The Moon's a Harsh Mistress 5. By the Time I Get to Phoenix 6. If These Walls Could Speak 7. Didn't We 8. Worst That Could Happen 9. All I Know 10. MacArthur Park This message has been edited by musicman1@ovation.net on 05-03-2001 at 06:14 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted May 3, 2001 Author Share Posted May 3, 2001 I do happen to be a Jimmy Webb fan, as I outlined on the guitar forum about "guilty pleasures" (sounds like a movie on "Skinemax")...I'll have to check the CD out. I'm intrigued... Any other tunes with rule-breaking segments that don't work? "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted May 3, 2001 Share Posted May 3, 2001 Art Garfunkel had a hit with Jimmy's 'All I Know'. Yeah, it's sappy, but so what? Some people like a little sap from time to time. It's like jelly - you don't want to eat it on everything, but it's kinda tasty on a hot piece of toast. Besides, SOMEBODY has to write songs for your girlfriend. I liked some of the jazz covers MacArthur Park. Maynard Ferguson's version was awesome. Flame suit secured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Thanks for the heads up on the Jimmy Webb album. I've always liked Webb. He's a great writer. He's a craftsman. Sure he's commercial. Sure he can get sappy from time to time. But he's a master of classic pop songwriting. And what's wrong with a little pop from time to time? Wichita Lineman, By the Time I Get to Phoenix, Worst That Could Happen and Up Up and Away are all classics. Flame me with napalm, but I have always enjoyed those songs, as much for the craftsmanship as for the emotional value. A song can be perfectly and technically correct from a writing and structure standpoint and still fail to move me either melodically or emotionally. That usually comes down to personal tastes, so I can certainly understand if anyone dislikes any or all of these songs. Jimmy's songs, more often than not, move me in some way or another. If they don't move someone else, that's fine. however, I think it's pretty clear that they follow structural rules very well and are good examples of technically correct songwriting. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted May 4, 2001 Author Share Posted May 4, 2001 One of my favorite Jimmy Webb songs, that most of you wouldn't know unless you had a young daughter who was into little girl type things, was one he wrote for an animated film called "The Last Unicorn". Kenny Loggins covered it on his kids CD, the one with "Return to Pooh Corner" on it. Guess it just reminds me of when my daughter was little and she wanted to sit on Dad's lap and watch that video... Sentimental ol' Ted "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman1ovation.net Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Originally posted by Tedster: Guess it just reminds me of when my daughter was little and she wanted to sit on Dad's lap and watch that video... Sentimental ol' Ted Stop it, Ted! You're killin' me! [sOBS] Someone left the friggin' cake out in the rain.... [OFF-KEY] and I don't... and I don't... th-think that I can take it, cause it took s-s-so long to... [bWAHHAHH!!!!] I'm sorry. Forum amongst yourselves. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif [CONFUSED] Did anyone hear a bell?? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 As we're talking about quality schmaltz... Burt Bacharach's material is really incredible, the way his songs take unusual twists and turns. The way he can make something so extremely unconventional sound conventional is musical subversion at its best. "Do You Know the Way to San Jose" may seem like a pop trifle, but the phrasing is simply amazing. Very clever, without being forced. Of course, have Dionne Warwick as your mouthpiece wasn't too shabby. About MacArthur Park, I never really cared for it either, but mostly because of the damn words! Leaving cakes out in the rain may have been deep for some people...maybe I should have taken acid... Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricknbokker Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 O.K. Ted. I finally got one for you. And When I Die-- The Guess Who This song is all over the place, and like it a lot. The only problem I have is with it is the break w/the horn section that sounds like what they play when Elvis would take the stage in Vegas. Far out, man!! So, what do ya think? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippie Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 Originally posted by Anderton: As we're talking about quality schmaltz... Burt Bacharach's material is really incredible, the way his songs take unusual twists and turns. The way he can make something so extremely unconventional sound conventional is musical subversion at its best. "Do You Know the Way to San Jose" may seem like a pop trifle, but the phrasing is simply amazing. Very clever, without being forced. Of course, have Dionne Warwick as your mouthpiece wasn't too shabby. About MacArthur Park, I never really cared for it either, but mostly because of the damn words! Leaving cakes out in the rain may have been deep for some people...maybe I should have taken acid... Hi Craig, Ever notice Burt's tunes are usually in a major 7th key. I think this allows for some funky changes, just due to the key he's in. -Hippie In two days, it won't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 I have nothing against Jimmy Webb in particular, I just think that taking acid didn't do anything good for him. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif And hey, if you guys want a REAL laugh, you should listen to the B-SIDE of the MacArthur Park single! It's called "The Yard Went On Forever". It's sooooo bad you would not even believe! And talk about all over the place! The arrangement constantly takes detours that are so out in left field you can't even imagine what the producers were thinking. And the lyrics! Damn, you thought the A-side was bad!! Sample: "There were houses, there were hoses... there was a frying pan/And she would cook their dreams while they were sleeping..." Then there's a part about the women of Pompeii singing on doomsday or something. I kid you not. If anyone would like an MP3 of this masterpiece, which I believe is out of print, and you can handle a 5.5 meg file in email, I'd be happy to send it to you. This is truly a "so bad it's good" classic. And while I'm thinking about horrific B-sides, does anybody know that the B-side of one of the Ronettes' big hits was called "He Hit Me (And It Felt Like A Kiss)?!?!?! And no, it does not appear to be a joke, and yes, it's as bad as it sounds. --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 05-06-2001 at 12:25 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Worthington Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 MacArthur Park PROVES that music matters more than lyrics, ultimately. And it also proves that a great songwriter can can still obliviously indulge in dreck. (Paul McCartney or Stevie Wonder come to mind?) Jimmie Webb's "All I Know" has a great opening line: "I bruise you You bruise me We both bruise too easily...." But MacAthur Park is a song that was a hit DESPITE the lyrics. A great lyric can help a song, but an awful lyric can ruin a song. Somehow this one got away with murder. The biggest problem with the cake and the icing and the rain and--most important--the failure to have the foresight to document the recipe for future reference, was that you couldn't ignore that lyric. Even people who don't pay attention to words, and who aren't particularly analytical or judgmental, couldn't help but notice (and laugh at) these turds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted May 7, 2001 Author Share Posted May 7, 2001 >>>"I bruise you You bruise me We both bruise too easily...." Sing that to the tune of Barney's "I love you" (this old man)...HAHAHAHA...Barney goes S&M!!! Ad voice..."Now, kids, you too can own 'BONDAGE BARNEY'" HAHAHAHA... Just thought of another weird one that doesn't work... Someone brought up Elvis...well, "Suspicious Minds" has a bridge thingy where it goes into a slow 3/4 thing. Doesn't work for me at all...at least not to me...then builds back into the "We're caught in a trap" thing. And Lee...YES! I remember "The Yard Went On Forever"!!! Can't even remember how it goes...I just remember a friend had the single, and he played that for me once as "You gotta hear this really weird song"... If you want, you can send me a copy at tedsblues2@yahoo.com I wouldn't mind hearing it, just for grins... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricknbokker Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 Well now... It seems you have some skeletons in your closet. Ms Lee !!! (church lady voice) Just who were you trying to fool with this, 'I hate Macarthur Park' thing anyway. Where did this B side thing come from, hmm???!!! Perhaps it was the record sitting on your 45prm player??! (you know the one...) http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif ...Things that make ya go hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JH Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 No matterb what you say about Webb's lyrics in Macarthur Park-We are here talking about them-There has to be something about them-Check out Jimmy Webb's book on songwriting "Tunesmith"-It is absolutely the best book on songwriting that I've ever read.It also a very entertaining read-Its AWESOME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 Originally posted by Anderton: As we're talking about quality schmaltz... Burt Bacharach's material is really incredible, the way his songs take unusual twists and turns. The way he can make something so extremely unconventional sound conventional is musical subversion at its best. "Do You Know the Way to San Jose" may seem like a pop trifle, but the phrasing is simply amazing. Very clever, without being forced. Of course, have Dionne Warwick as your mouthpiece wasn't too shabby. B] I'm really going to kill whatever reputation as a rocker I ever had, but I'm sorry - Burt Bacharach's THE MAN! Yeah, he's a bit full of himself. He never wrote his own lyrics (Hal David did those 60's classics, and now Elvis Costello does his lyrics... There's another great writer for ya) but boy can that guy write a melody. And he isn't a shabby arranger either. And Craig, I agree - he's the master at the unusual chord progression / change. They always work, they never sound contrived or forced and they keep things interesting without being too "out there". Some of my favorite Bacharach songs: The Look Of Love (Dusty Springfield) Walk On By (Dionne Warwick) I'll Never Fall In Love Again (Dionne Warwick) What the World Needs Now Is Love (Jackie DeShannon) Baby It's You (Shirelles / Beatles) I Say A Little Prayer (Dionne Warwick) One Less Bell To Answer (5th Dimension) and a lot of the instrumental stuff in Butch Cassidy is really beautiful. That's (IMO) a great movie score. Okay, my dirty little secret is out... flame away! Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted May 7, 2001 Author Share Posted May 7, 2001 Phil, Craig, et al... You all obviously didn't read the thread on the guitar forum we had about "Your guilty pleasures"...in other words, what music does the "closet schmaltz" lover in you like that a lot of folks would consider "totally unhip"... Think I'll start a new thread here and bring that one over from the guitar forum... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 Originally posted by ricknbokker: Well now... It seems you have some skeletons in your closet. Ms Lee !!! (church lady voice) Just who were you trying to fool with this, 'I hate Macarthur Park' thing anyway. Where did this B side thing come from, hmm???!!! Perhaps it was the record sitting on your 45prm player??! (you know the one...) http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif Yes, that's right. I BOUGHT a copy of the 45 of MacArthur Park!!! Ya wanna know why? Because my kid sister had never heard it and I wanted her to hear what I considered one of the worst number one hits ever!!! LOL... So I bought it and we had a great laugh over it with another friend of hers, and then her friend yells out: "Oh my god - what about the B SIDE!!" We were almost breathless with anticipation over just HOW BAD this was going to be - and it did not disappoint! I mean to say I thought we were gonna have to call an ambulance we were laughing so hard! --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 05-07-2001 at 12:24 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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