Songwriting: "Discipline" or "Inspiration"?

[ricknbokker]

Awesome stuff everybody! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gif

(keepin' it on the top)

[spookmuzik]

Lee et al,

 

I like to walk, purposefully, in a rhythm and sing silly lyrics until something with a good flow grabs me eg

 

You know you want falafel (da daa da daaa da da da)

 

Then find a melody for the rhythm. Repeat until you get to your guitar, then find the chords to go with the melody - try to keep the key the same as when you were walking, even if it means its in G# minor or something.

 

Then expand the hook into a structure that feels songish http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Then add a verse (or the chorus depending on how much falafel you need)using related chords.

 

Look for a change, or a break - a turnaround or something.

 

Stir, and in a few hours you have good hot soup.

 

Julian M

[Mr Darling]

I have to say that our only method of writing is insperation.

Nothing else work for us.... Since we have the advantage of our own studio we only sit there when we feel like it. The writing processes is different every time - but it only works from insperation. Never have I went to the studio because of a dead line and achived a good result.

I guess that's the artist in me, that actouly shy away from disiplaine... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

You can check is out....

 

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Visit http://www.DarlingNikkie.com/sounds for free MP3's

 

This message has been edited by Mr Darling on 04-27-2001 at 07:56 AM

[Calfee Jones]

I saw that recent Sean Connery film "Finding Forrester" last night. It is about an older experienced writer (books) helping a younger writer learn. One thing that struck me is that the older guy told the young guy to just start writing.

 

The young guy wants to stop and think about what he should write first, but the old guy tells him that "Your first draft is 100% creative. Just write what you feel. Then your rewrites are all 100% technical."

 

That struck me as good advice for songwriters too. I guess the film is just out on video. Take a look at it, you might get some ideas!

[Amuse]

...That's one of the reasons I like to title the project first, too - so that it's all coming from the same place. I might have other songs I'd like to release, but if they don't fit with the mood of the CD and add something to it, they don't go on.

 

Well said! I really appreciated your insight so much. I'm working on a cd right now, and this will really help me give direction to it!!!!

 

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[gae_layahoo.it]

great,great topic.thanks,lee.

there's no real rule for my songwriting,except one:the best stuff comes out when i'm not thinking about it.

most of the best ideas come when i'm half-asleep,i don't why that is...

i'll just be in my bed minutes before falling asleep and a tune will pop up from literally nowhere!the hard part is getting out of bed and record it...

anyway,i tend to finish three-four songs per year.maybe i lack the discipline,or maybe i'm just shit...

i once read an Elliott Smith interview...he said he used to write tunes on a guitar while watching tv,so he didn't look at the fret-bar and he could be able to surprise himself with new chords.

as far as i can tell,Elliott Smith is one of the best american songwriters around...if u think that there aren't any good and inventive artists around,just look for one of his records. ("either/or" is a masterpiece)

[Tedster]

Pretty neat. I must admit I'm not familiar with Elliot. I hear you about the ideas coming as you're falling asleep.

 

Driving or walking is one place melodies start happening for me. To that end...I'd have to say if you're writing...keep the channels open. Turn off the radio or CD player. It interferes with what your muses are giving you. It's good to have a time to listen to other music...but you've also gotta listen to the "radio" in your head. It seems like the world is full of pre-programmed "background music"...on TV, everywhere...some folks at work have to have a radio going all the time...as if they're afraid of "dead air". As a writer...dead air is your friend!

[Anderton]

I always marvel at the Brill Building songwriters from the 50s, who treated it like a 9-to-5 job ("gotta go to work, honey, time to write a hit") but produced a body of work that has held up over time. Sure, there were the novelty tunes mixed in with the great stuff, but they hit a pretty high level. Obviously, they had the discipline, but they had figured out how to derive inspiration.

 

For me, I go with the after inspiration comes the discipline required to edit, fix, and improve. The biggest problem, as we all know, is knowing when to STOP MESSING WITH THE TUNE. You don't want to be like white bread and refine out all the good stuff.

 

Sometimes errors work, and sometimes they're the catchiest elements of a composition.

[gae_layahoo.it]

well ted,i can say sometimes interferences from the "outside world" (traffic noises,radio,tv,whatever...) do work for me.for example,i'll be stuck with a three-chord sequence and don't know what to do with it and suddenly the low-pitched noise of a car passing by my street will bring that note i was searching for...

even better, sometimes if i get exposed to a continuous hum,say, a fan in a room,i'll probably get a tune in my head.

sometimes i'll be in a mall or a supermarket, and the music in the background (which i really can't identify because it usually gets played at a low level) will bring a tune.has this ever happened to anyone else? what do you think about that?

[-]

Originally posted by carne_de_res:

sometimes i'll be in a mall or a supermarket, and the music in the background (which i really can't identify because it usually gets played at a low level) will bring a tune.has this ever happened to anyone else? what do you think about that?

 

I've found that misinterpretation can be a *great* catalyst for ideas... If a random song comes up on my 200 CD changer and I have the volume very, very low, I'll still hear bits and pieces of the arrangement... But I might be thinking the song might be in a totally different key and I might be unsure of what song I'm actually listening to.

 

Speaking of misinterpretation... Oftentimes, the first or second time I hear a new album, I'll be half-listening to the lyrics and hear an interesting phrase and go, "The singer didn't just say *that*, did s/he?"

 

I'll keep that phrase in my head while I scramble through the CD booklet to make sure I definitely misheard that lyric... If the lyric is different, then the misheard lyric gets written down in my idea notepad.

 

Then again, I might just have a knack for misheard lyrics, as I always thought part the lyrics for "Copacabana" were "Her name was Toni / He called her Rover"... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/confused.gif

[Lee Flier]

Carne: that happens to me a LOT actually... I'll have the radio on at very low volume, or when I'm drifting off to sleep, or I'll hear a neighbor playing music or an ambient sound... and I'll "hear" things that aren't really there. Those very often do turn into song ideas!

 

That said, I agree with Ted about the need for "empty space". I don't know how people have music on 24/7 while they're working, watch TV or listen to the radio before going to bed, etc. all the time. I HAVE to have a certain amount of silence every day, and during that silence, I start hearing music in my head very quickly and pretty constantly. People who leave the TV on all the time (with the sound on) especially drive me nuts. I can't go to someone's house who does that. It's like they're trying to drown out their own thoughts constantly. Yikes.

 

Then too, I also go along with something Keith Richards once said: "When I want to write a song what I do is sit down and play 25 great songs by other people and hope one of mine will drip off the end." http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I like to have extended listening sessions where I play stuff that inspires me, either on CD or on the guitar or both, and then follow that with a period of silence during which hopefully some cool ideas start to come through.

 

And yeah Craig, I don't know how those Brill Building guys do it. I have a friend like that in L.A. too. He gets up in the morning and writes 3 songs before breakfast. And most of them are GOOD. In fact, the only problem is to make sure you happen to be around when his songs come out, otherwise he won't remember he wrote them and they get lost!

 

I don't really aspire to that level of prolificness (is that a word? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif), but it's certainly a marvel to watch!

 

Really enjoying everybody's comments!

 

--Lee

[sweetrecords]

Oh man, you folks are on it! Great thread.

 

Rule #1: There are no rules.

Rule #2 (oops): TURN OFF THE EDITOR. Don't stop before you start. Jump in the water! Swim!! Just start singin' to yourself. Get a beat in your head and start singing along and pretty soon you'll find somethin' you like (YOU know what you like: You've heard thousands of songs in your life) so repeat it, repeat that part you like -Swim! Keep swimmin' 'til you get to the deep end then take a deep breath and dive down, down, down to the next level... -That's the chorus.

I've written hundreds of songs in the car, not tryin' to write, but things just come to you. The hum of the motor maybe. I appreciate the Berlioz comment and the mentions of being a "conduit." I believe songs are gifts, and they are bestowed on the SINCERE if you quiet your mind and stop thinking intellectually. John Lennon believed the same.

Pardon the analogy, but let's say your "special friend" is manually stimulating your other special friend. Time goes by and it's apparent the deal isn't gettin' done. You're worried her arm's getting tired and here comes the pressure... With the pressure on, worry can cloud the mind... and you can't finish. If you're under pressure, you're not gonna hear what the Universe is singing to you. READ: Songs don't always come between 8 and 10:30 when you're at your writing table. The harder I work on a song the worse it becomes. It's like when you're underwater and a penny's floating to the bottom of the pool and your very act of reaching for it pushes it away. Let it come.

One of my composition teachers Jack Smalley (Los Angeles orchestrator of the first order) would always tell us: The important thing is to "get away from the instrument," and "Harmony is the consequence of Melody," and it is sooooo true. Sure I've written while playing bass, or guitar, or piano... but writin' alone in the cranium is always the best because you're free from your limitation on a given instrument. You modulate without knowing it and your hands can catch up later. Writing on the instrument in a way is like a coloring book or connect-the-dots: there are parameters to follow, boundaries to adhere to. -WHAT IF THE UNIVERSE AIN'T IN THAT KEY? If you strum a chord, methinks you'll sing something diatonic. -Et tu Brute? -Now tomorrow I'll turn around and write at the piano BUT -there are no rules!

 

Here's to the next "In My Life" or "Hey Jude". Maybe one of you folks is gonna write it for us!

 

Thanks for your posts and peace.

Sweetrecords

[-]

I thought of a few more techniques which work for me...

 

I'm a very mediocre (actually, lousy) guitarist, although I enjoy playing and writing stuff on the guitar. However, I like to keep a keyboard handy for figuring out chord progressions. (Keys are my first instrument.)

 

I use an old Casio SK-1 (terrific cheapo sampler/synth/sequencer thingee) for analyzing chord progressions and melodies. In a moment when I'm stuck with where the song is going, switching to a different instrument like the keyboard forces me to think differently.

 

I do have a "real" sampler but I generally don't use it for writing, as I like the idea of having a small, simple portable mini keyboard that I can just plug in and go when inspiration strikes.

 

Another trick I use... If I'm trying to write a new song and I'm strumming guitar chords, I *always* start off with the capo a few frets up on the neck of the guitar. The reason is, when I first write a song, I always seem to come up with melodies in the higher range of my voice. So being able to move the capo down or take the capo off eventually allows me to easily transpose the song down into a more comfortable range for my voice later on.

 

This thread is great! Keep posting your writing techniques...

 

 

This message has been edited by popmusic on 05-04-2001 at 10:12 AM

[Anderton]

I'm curious what leads to inspiration, and I think that maybe a crucial component is DESIRE. In other words, you love music, you want to write, and that's always in the back of your mind (like a memory-resident program in a PC, LOL). So when the space opens up, of you go on a walk, or whatever, your background program is always searching for musical opportunities.

 

I get the best inspirations while walking. There's something about the rhythm, I think, that just makes tunes happen. Trains are another one. But what REALLY gets me inspired is working with other musicians. Every time I come back from playing in Germany with Rei$$dorf Force, a whole lot of music comes out.

 

As to misinterpretation, here's a variation: pick some complicated song and try to figure out the chord progression. The mistakes you make might be cool progressions in their own right.

[-]

Originally posted by Anderton:

I'm curious what leads to inspiration, and I think that maybe a crucial component is DESIRE. In other words, you love music, you want to write, and that's always in the back of your mind (like a memory-resident program in a PC, LOL). So when the space opens up, of you go on a walk, or whatever, your background program is always searching for musical opportunities.

 

For me, inspiration is often like a locomotive you can hear in the distance. When the train shows up, you'd better be ready to do something with what the train brings... Otherwise, you'll have to noodle around until the next train shows up. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Ironically, one of the things that keeps me inspired is being busy with other things -- like a full time job, unrelated to music. Whenever I have a long vacation or take a few days off of work, I might be really inspired for the first two days, but the ability to be strongly inspired drops off not long after that if I don't have anything else to occupy my time.

 

I think that people who are really into creating and writing are always *thinking* about it somewhere in their subconscious. For example, I've been busy with a lot of things outside of work lately (non-music related), and haven't had any time to sit down and try to write anything. I finally had some time last night to try to write something, and it was like I had a bunch of ideas which were all built up, so the ideas flowed pretty freely.

 

I think I still have enough pent up creative energy so I could write another song tonight, but instead I'm going to switch into the "editing" mode to polish up what I wrote yesterday. As Barry White once said, "Too much of anything ain't good for ya, baby!" http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif