Professional Sound

[John Brown]

What exactly is it that separates the home demo sound, from the professionally made sound? I realize that there are probably several different things, but what would they all be? Or at least some of the big ones? Is it better equiptment? Better effects? Sexier groupies? Any input would be appreciated. John (HomeBrew) Brown

[Rog]

The biggest things for me are the room and the expectation. The room is so important, especially for drums. Also, It's easy to settle for average takes at home. When you're paying money to a studio you expect more than average.

[Gulliver]

I record at home for almost a year now. Before assembling my small home studio (actually I even have hard time to call it "studio", it's rather my personal "music corner") I've recorded in quite many pro studios and therefore can compare them. Well, first and foremost my own setup lacks a number of high-end gear such as various expensive microphones (I have only one AT3035), pre-amps (use only one available in my Behringer analog mixing desk), compressors (just one RNC)... you name it. Despite the fact that the recording software I use (CEP2.0) provides up to 128 virtual tracks and my mixer has 24 tracks, I have only 8 physical outputs on my Audiowerk soundcard. Hey, I even do not talk about the room... (No way to record any live drums at all! :D ) Anyway, when I compare my mixes with those available on commercial CDs I never am satisfied with the results I achieve sound wise. At least so far that is. But at the other hand if I would still record outside my home I know I would never be satisfied with the arrangements and/or compositions itself because while recording on my own I have virtually unlimited amount of time to tweak things until they sound right to me (and awful to others :eek: :D ). That was something unthinkable during my previous sessions in commercial studios. But yeah, the overall sound of my mixes can't compete with a professional one. Alas. (Guess pro mastering engineer would be able to save some of my stuff though... ;) ) So, let's go to the conclusion: Better equipment? Yes. Effects? Certainly. Especially when comparing my Zoom RFX 2000 to some "nasty" Lexicon. :rolleyes: (God bless the plug-ins!) Groupies? What the hell is that?? :D

[John Brown]

Hey Gulliver - Are you really from Estonia? For some reason that makes me nervous? And a geography chant that we used to say in school starts going through my brain: Latvia Lithuania Estonia! I started with the Groupies as I thought that they would be essential to a more "professional" sound. But unfortunately I went with the "Skeezer Mk I" and all of my tracks now sound kind of dirty. But even If I had everything that a pro studio had, I get the feeling that I still wouldn't sound like a commercial CD. What are they doing that I'm missing? John Brown

[Franknputer]

It all comes down, eventually, to the quality of the engineering. If you know what you're doing, then great results can be acheived with modest means; conversely, having an SSL, $5000 monitors, and tons of expensive toys does not guarantee you a good recording by any means. So - what's the difference between a home-made sound and a "professionally made" sound? An invoice. :wave:

[Gulliver]

[quote]Originally posted by John Brown: [b]Hey Gulliver - Are you really from Estonia? For some reason that makes me nervous? And a geography chant that we used to say in school starts going through my brain: Latvia Lithuania Estonia! ... [/b][/quote]Yes I am. But why nervous? We, Estonian citizens usually do not bite. Especially on the Net. ;) And the chant (if traveling from the North to the South) should look like this: Estonia Latvia Lithuania. :wave:

[GZsound]

In some cases, having your own studio means you can actually put out a better product than the "professional" studio. The ability to tweak and redo to your hearts content is not an option when you are giving some studio your hard earned money. After multiple bad experiences in high dollar studios, I spent the money and started doing it myself. One thing I had trouble with was being creative on demand while the clock is running and the rest of the group is waiting their turn. I now make it a point to charge project fees instead of hourly fees so the musicians don't feel that same pressure. After all, listen to the radio....what is "good music" anyway?

[Gulliver]

[quote]Originally posted by Christopher Kemp: [b]It all comes down, eventually, to the quality of the engineering. If you know what you're doing, then great results can be acheived with modest means; conversely, having an SSL, $5000 monitors, and tons of expensive toys does not guarantee you a good recording by any means. So - what's the difference between a home-made sound and a "professionally made" sound? An invoice. :wave: [/b][/quote]Oh, you really had to say this... :( Okay. But I'm convinced that the same (good) engineer would get much better results if using high end equipment. :p

[teh dri]

estonia dobar dan! (or do you have a dialect that differs greatly from the former yugoslavian countries such as serbia/bosnia/croatia?) ah jebiga! ciao!

[Franknputer]

[quote]Originally posted by Gulliver: [b]Okay. But I'm convinced that the same (good) engineer would get much better results if using high end equipment. :p [/b][/quote]Probably true - although a lot would depend on what exactly you were going for. It's really more up to the person than the tools. Sure, better tools make a difference, but there is a balance point where a better craftsman starts to matter more than the quality of the tools. I'd rather trust a good carpenter with a cheap hammer than a bad one with a nail gun. I will allow that a professional engineer (hopefully) has more experience working day after day with different groups, so s/he would perhaps have a broader perspective than somebody sitting in their bedroom, working only on their own music & maybe a friend or two. However, there are a lot of people out there who call themselves "professionals" that have just as narrow a focus, or have more skills in BS than in audio & therefore manage to keep working. This may come off as really cynical - sorry, I don't mean it to be. But after working in audio for a long time, this is what I've seen. I know firsthand that, while I really enjoy using top of the line gear, I can get a really good mix out of relatively modest equipment. ALso, I have worked with a lot of great blue-collar engineers, and I have run across several guys who work a lot yet I wouldn't have them mix a drink. So there you go. :D

[Gulliver]

[quote]Originally posted by DRiLoad: [b]estonia dobar dan! (or do you have a dialect that differs greatly from the former yugoslavian countries such as serbia/bosnia/croatia?) ah jebiga! ciao![/b][/quote]What!? ...LOL... Yeah, our "dialect" is MUCH different from theirs! These are just different languages from different countries. Remember the tower of Babel? ;)

[John Brown]

While I appreciate that an expensive invoice does not necessarily make for the most "professional" sound, what I mean is what exactly should a person doing home recording have in their arsenal. What kinds of equiptment, microphones etc. Also what kinds of effects, and what sorts of techniques can improve the sound from "homebrew" to "Bigtime." nd if anyone has any particular brand names or testimonials, they would also be greatly appreciated.

[MattC]

How come nobody has mentioned mastering? No matter how good the engineer, tools, rooms that are used, a mastered CD will always sound better than a "mixed" cd. I think a lot of the inadequcies of home recordings come down to people (and I'm not specifically mentioning anyone here) not knowing the best ways to use their equipment. Much of this falls into the EQ category. The tracks need to be eq'd just right to make them sound their best. Much of it is the facility- mixing in a better room will make loads of difference. Much of it comes down to the equipment. Let's face it- a $1000 vocal preamp sounds better than a $200 vocal preamp, and high end stuff can't even be bought for a measly $1000. Thr trick, I think, is to take the equipment that you have and find the best settings. Another thing I will do is network with other people to share gear- procesors, mics, etc. Nowadays, with expansive MIDI implimentation and the miracles of plug-ins and cut-'n'paste editing, there is no reason why a home recording can't sound like a major studio recording. You need to take the time and be really careful with your mixes. It also helps to listen to major discs and dissect them from an engineering standpoint.

[Franknputer]

'Zactly! Now, if you want specifics...I would suggest a good large-diaphragm condenser mic & a good outboard preamp, for starters. I have a Rode NT2 which I am personally fond of - very sweet-sounding mic, costs about $400. There are lots of choices. Also keep an eye out for good dynamic mics too - they have their place as well. You must have at least 1 SM57 for that classic guitar sound. Outboard pre's are subjective - but again, you can get good ones in the $500 range, I'd wager- maybe get one of those "channel strip" processors, so you get some good EQ & maybe a compressor in the deal. Recording to a computer? Get a good soundcard, that will at least give you 2 in, 2 out on something besides a mini-jack. Think $200 and up - an example would me the M-Audio Audiophile 2496, which is 2x2 analog, and also has MIDI & S/PDIF digital in & out - about $179 on the street. This list gets pretty long - do some searches on these forums, & you'll get more specifics than you know what to do with. But remember - HOW you use what you have is way more important that WHAT you use. :thu:

[Franknputer]

I was thinking about it...I will say this, others feel free to say different, but... One thing you will need is a high-quality reverb unit. Plugin, hardware, whatever - don't skimp on this. One thing that big studios have in common is really expensive reverb solutions: electronic, plate, chamber. Don't expect to get the same performance out of an Alesis NanoVerb. (BTW - for the record, I like the NanoVerb for the price - but I wouldn't trade my Lexicon LXP15 for it.)

[Lee Flier]

Assuming you're doing "live" instruments as opposed to using synths and samples, the biggest factors are the experience of the engineer, and the room - or what use you make of the room. And yes, good mastering helps. A good mastering engineer can often make up for the anomalies of a home studio monitoring environment. Good monitors and reasonable attention to the acoustics in your mixing room make a REALLY BIG difference. If you can't hear what you're doing correctly, it's kinda hard to get a good mix! Just addressing those three things alone will go a long way. Good gear IS going to sound better than cheap gear, but there are techniques that can be adopted to make better use of your budget. For example: - use real room reverb, like in a bathroom or garage, rather than a cheap digital reverb unit. - Buy one GOOD mic for a drum overhead instead of buying two cheap ones just so you can have stereo overheads. No one is going to notice that your drum overhead is mono, but they WILL notice the improved sound. (my drum OH mic is a Beyer M160 ribbon mic. They go for about $600 new and I found a used one for $400.) - Get an FMR Really Nice Compressor. Best $150 you can spend. - If your room sucks, make some homemade baffles / gobos and use them to break up standing waves and such. It's cheaper and more practical than trying to treat your whole room, and often sounds better too because you can move the gobos around until it sounds right. - Try to get sounds right with room tricks and correct mic selection/placement so you don't have to rely so much on effects to get your sound. Nothing gives away a home demo so much as cheap effects. Except maybe a crappy room sound. :D Oh well. Well that's all I can think of right now.

[John Brown]

Gabos?.......... I feel that I have lost the battle already. ALso, I read somewhere else to use two or more mics, at different distances from the speaker, for a better sound. THey said that it would put more "room" into it. Is that what the digital/plate/spring reverbs are trying to emulate? Will it really sound legitimate if I use room accoustics instead of the process. Lee Flyer- I tried to download a song on the what the web site and nothing happened. Was it just me? It probably was.

[Franknputer]

More mics will pick up more of the room sound - what that sound is depends on the room. More mics will also give an impression of depth to a sound, due to differences in what the mics "hear", but it's not a magic bullet - it's just a technique. Listen to the sounds of your environment, and see if you can tell different characteristics in each room. The bathroom is a good one - it's easy to hear. Lots of hard, reflective surfaces (which is why it's a poor man's reverb chamber). I have always been partial to rooms with wood floors and brick walls - they are very reflective, yet a bit soft at the same time; and the bricks are not parallel surfaces, which causes standing waves. It's sort of what reverbs are trying to do, yes, although that may be an oversimplification - they also do a bit of their own thing. "Legitimate" is kind of subjective - you want it to sound good, however you acheive it.

[John Brown]

"Legitimate" is kind of subjective - you want it to sound good, however you acheive it." You know...That's exactly what they say about the "autotune" and the "lip synching" Are you trying to turn me out too?

[Franknputer]

Hey now - lip syncing makes no sound, and autotune doesn't sound good. :D Depends how far you want to take a purist approach - when you get down to it, recording sound is in itself processing it, and playing back the result is not the same as the natural sound that you recorded. Of course, that won't get you far in making records...so you have to decide. The real point is that there are many options, far more than ever before. And the cardinal rule of audio engineering is not, "Is it correct?" but "Does it sound good?". Really - any professional will tell you that's the bottom line.

[John Brown]

I thought it was "What is the Per Diem?" However, I was just joking. I like drum machines, Synthesizers, and Paulla Abdul, a little artificial never killed anyone. John (99.9% Real) Brown

[MattC]

I'll assume that for a home demo or even a home CD, you probably won't get mastering done to it. A suggestion, either way: No matter how good your mixing job may be, it can only be as good as the tracked signals are. Solution? Play with mics until you have the "perfect" sound. I personally love LD mics for everything, and I try to use them as much as possible for tracking, especially where you wouldn't expect them- guitars, for example. One thing I've noticed is that guitars can make or break the recording. Set up your monitors (phones) and get a few mics and stands. Have the player play his parts and move the mics around until you find that "sweet spot." Often times, this will be where the signal is perceived to be the greatest. Repeat this with another mic. During mixdown, you can use as much or as little of each mic as necessary. Each mic and mic type will color the sound in a distinctive way. As far as bathrooms go, they have excellent reverb (from the tile and mirror) and if you are using LD's, they can be used effectively for natural reverb, especially on vocals. When mixing vocals, don't use much reverb. Professional recordings don't, and too much can trick the listener into thinking that you are covering up a bad performance. A bad performance is still bad if soaked in reverb. Don't skimp on the time it takes to get the sounds just right. This is where is helps to have a good selection of mics, you have some flexibility in tracking. If a track is done properly, it won't require much processing after the fact, except possibly reverb and EQ. There, like said before, are your money effects.

[sign]

Professional sound quality? Today I was with a fellow engineer listening to a 5.1 mix he has done in his (very big) studio. He is mixing for a DVD from a live concert of one of the most famous dutch singers. The recording was done with a mobile studio that travels around the globe and has done recordings for a number of great artists and bands. 65 tracks were used to record the singer and his band. The studio where the mix takes place has tons of high class gear. An SSL board, several racks with famous vintage and modern processors and effects. The sound I heard this afternoon was simply awesome, the budget must be astronomical. No way you will get a sound like that with a Behringer desk and a bathroom, better forget it.

[MattC]

Hey, we deal with what we have. Just because we can't afford a multi-million dollar set-up doesn't mean we shouldn't [b]try [/b] for the same quality it would offer. In the home studio game, it's all about using what we have rather than pining for a piece of gear we can't afford. When it comes down to it, [b]a skilled enginer will make whatever medium he is using sound as good as it can[/b] . For this reason, you'd be better off spending time learning the ins and outs of every piece of gear you own than saying "it can't be done."

[John Brown]

Thanks for all of the assistance, but a final question (well two(, what exactly is "Mastering" It has been used like it was something other than the final mixdown that I always thought it was? It is different, what is it? And what is an LD mic? something dynamic? And for the record, what is the difference between a dynamic mic, and a condenser? Are there better situation for each. Again, thanks for the help. John Brown

[Philip OKeefe]

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]Assuming you're doing "live" instruments as opposed to using synths and samples, the biggest factors are the experience of the engineer, and the room - or what use you make of the room. And yes, good mastering helps. A good mastering engineer can often make up for the anomalies of a home studio monitoring environment. Good monitors and reasonable attention to the acoustics in your mixing room make a REALLY BIG difference. If you can't hear what you're doing correctly, it's kinda hard to get a good mix! Just addressing those three things alone will go a long way. [/b][/quote]Well, that's pretty much covered what I was going to say, so I won't repeat it... oops, I think I just did! :) BTW [b]Lee[/b], what preamp are you using on your M160? I sure love mine - and am looking for a second one. If I manage to find two, I'll try to hook you up - I only paid $100 for my last one! :D

[sign]

John There's a ton of microphone info in this link: http://homerecording.com/bbs//showthread.php?s=&threadid=27030 Harvey Gerst will help you understand microphones.

[MattC]

Mastering is "post production." You can consider mixing down to be the end of the production phase, and mastering takes the mix down and makes it sound as good as it can possibly be. It also includes editing fade ins, fade outs, track spacing, relative EQ and volume, and abuot a million other tricks. A lot of what mastering does can be "faked" in the home studio, especially if you are recording to a computer, but it still can't beat a professionally mastered disc. LD stands for large diaphragm, and it refers to a type of condenser mic used primarially in the studio. because it is a condenser mic, it requires phantom (+48V) power to operate. Of all the mic types available, LD's [b]generally[/b] sound the most realistic, lifelike, and accurate for things like vocals. There is no comparison between LD's and dynamics for studio vocals. LD's are a studio only animal because they tend to pick up everything, and onstage this would result in a lot of feedback and ambient noise. Dynamic mics, on the other hand, (such as the SM57 or SM58) require no outside power. They tend to be used in close-micing situations like guitars and drums, or live vocals. LD's generally cost more (respectable models starting at about $200 with several budget models available for less) while dynamic mics can be had for much less. There is another mic you might see called a Small Diaphragm (SD) mic. Very similar to the LD except, you guessed it, the diaphragm is smaller. They are generally used as drum overhead mics and for many things except vocals in the studio. And as always, none of this is hard and fast- if you find a gread tone while you are recording, by all means use it without considering what type of mic you are using.

[John Brown]

Thanks for the mic information Templar, it really did clear up alot of questions that I had. Unfortunately, My brain now has excuses as it murmurs to me to buy more expensive gear. "You NEED it.....It has the Large Diaphragm....One for the studio, one for the live show.... Cartiod Pattern....." lol. John Brown

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by templar001: [b] In the home studio game, it's all about using what we have rather than pining for a piece of gear we can't afford. When it comes down to it, [b]a skilled enginer will make whatever medium he is using sound as good as it can[/b] . For this reason, you'd be better off spending time learning the ins and outs of every piece of gear you own than saying "it can't be done."[/b][/quote]Right you are! I don't kid myself that my home gear's ever going to sound as good as what I could do in a top studio, but I think we're getting quite decent sounds with a very meager and inexpensive complement of gear and as long as it puts the music across, I'm not going to worry about it. A few well chosen pieces of gear and a little experimentation and techique savvvy can go a long way.