Edendude Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Drummers... I thought I'd post this here, as well as on the Lowdown forum, just because it was such a revelation for our band at our regular club gig this weekend... After seeing me enjoying the 'small is beautiful' pleasures of my new Eden D210MBX bass cab, our drummer decided he was going to order one of those 'Taye GoKits', which are becoming very popular with gigging drummers who are sick and tired of dragging around a van load of kit to every gig. But the real pay off for us all, was how this little kit has effected our drumer's ability to control volume, and the overall sound of our band. It's almost as if the kit functions the way a really high-quality compressor does on recorded vocals. He can really lay into them for feel, but they never start to over-power our stage volume, as was always the case with his big full-size Mapex kit. The kit sounds great, has quality hardware and shells, and packs down into three bags, including all the hardware. http://www.tayedrum.com/gokit/GK418-AH.gif My Last Band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techristian Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 It sounds like a good set of drums. I looked at a set of TAYE before buying my Cadeson drums, but the store HAD THEM WAY UP IN THE RAFTERS so they wouldn't let anyone play them. That's a good way to sell drums??? I may have bought those TAYE right on the spot if I liked the sound, but alas we shall never know. Dan http://teachmedrums.com/octopus2.wmv TEACHMEDRUMS.COM My Music Videos RED PILL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill G. Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Curious. What's the price point of the set pictured? - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edendude Posted December 16, 2004 Author Share Posted December 16, 2004 Around $800 US for the kit below, like my drummer's. That's without cymbals. Here's some more info... http://www.tayedrum.com/gokit.htm My drummer actually has this kit, but in the Antique Honey finish... http://www.tayedrum.com/GoKit/GK618F-TB.jpg My Last Band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 These look pretty cool. I am curious about how much space you are really saving with this kit? I mean, the real space hogs on a drum kit are the bass drum and any floor toms. Anything 13" or smaller generally isn't a big deal. Yet, this kit looks like it has a reduced snare and hi toms. I'm not certain that this is much of an advantage. Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edendude Posted December 16, 2004 Author Share Posted December 16, 2004 There is no floor tom, just a mounted drum that takes it's place, and can be tuned surprisingly low. The kick drum is REALLY small, but sounds amazing with a decent kick drum mic on it. This kit seems to take up about half the space on stage as our drummer's regular kit. The snare is a killer sounding piccolo. And the little timbale has a great sound, too. But truly best thing about this kit, from a whole band sound perspective, is how it allows us to reduce our stage volume and control dynamics. The poor guy will probably be hung if he shows up to a club gig with his regular kit again, because the rest of the band is diggin' this new kit so much. When we play outdoor shows or really big venues, I'm sure the big kit will be the right tool for the job. 95% of our gig are in small to medium size rooms. For those venues this kit is THE ticket. It's hard to believe, I know, but this little kit really does make us sound like a much better band. And no... I don't work for the Taye Drum Company, nor do I have anything to gain personally, by singing the praises of these great little kits. But let's face it, many drummers suffer from having to walk the fine line between controlling their stage volume, and yet still playing forcefully enough to get the 'feel' they really want. I have been playing bass alongside our drummer since we were teenagers. I am 43 years old, now. I have never heard him sound so good live. That's why I thought it was worth posting over here on the Drum Talk forum. If there's anyone who really wants drummers to sound good...it's us bass players. My Last Band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidereal Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 I use a Yamaha Rick Marotta Hip Gig kit for gigs all the time. I also have a full size Premier with 22" kick and the whole nine yards. I hardly ever use the Premier for gigs anymore, only recording and (personal) practicing. Personally, I think that big rock kits are completely unnecessary for live gigging. What they really serve is the drummer's ego. I don't mean that just as a jab, but that bigger kits will give you a more rounded tone that these smaller ones can't quite produce. So it feels all manly from the drummer's perspective. You said it right in your original post: these smaller kits make for a compressed sound. This really serves the band as a whole because there is better control over stage volume and the FOH mixer can adjust the mains accordingly. Now, for studio recording, it's another story. There you need the full dynamic range of a larger kick drum and toms that are going to produce more tone and projection. I'll give you a great tip for using cocktail style kits like the Hip Gig and Taye in larger gigs. Swap out the snare and replace with say a 13x6 maple (everyone should already have replacement snares at home anyway). Also, buy a simple triggering system with a module (like Pintech triggers + Roland SPD-20). Use a single trigger on the kick drum (don't worry about the toms) and send that through the module to the sound engineer's stage DI (or better yet, buy your own DI). All of a sudden, your tiny kit can produce huge sound with the snare replacement and kick drum samples from the module. This setup gives you much more versatility accross different sized gigs. I played a gig last weekend on a huge stage in a large hall with six other musicians in a high volume setting and I used my Hip Gig with the above configuration. Stage volume was under control, but the overall mix was outstanding. I seriously think that drummers are just too loud. I love the recent trend of smaller kits. Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Gervais Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Sorry guys......... but as a drummer I don't agree. If a drummer is too loud then he needs to work on it. The kit isn't the problem or the answer. The drummer needs to learn how to play. I did a gig last summer where a drummer was complaining to me that no one ever wanted to mic his drums. This was an outside festival - and he played my kit in the 1st set so I could finish adjusting all the sound. I had his mics turned off before the 1st song finished - and even then had to go back a couple of times to tell him to quiet down and finally made him switch to playing 7A sticks - (it was still too loud - but was barely livable) I can play a full sized kit in a 20 x 16 rooom - any style of music and hear the entire band just fine...... as they can hear each other. I can play small venues and not overpower the band - and prefer to mic the drums in larger venues - Something to be said for dynamics along the way - and loud is just that - loud.... Smashing the drums for volume isn't drumming - and any drummer who is loud would be well suited to have his band mates - his friends - let him know he has a problem he needs to work on. SIncerely, Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Hi Rod. I agree with your statement so far as it goes - that is, I see a LOT of drummers nowadays with no finesse or dynamics at all (kinda like modern CD's ), who insist on hitting the drums so hard that they not only overpower the rest of the band and/or the room and/or the PA, but the tone sounds like crap because they don't allow the drums to "breathe." On the other hand, full size drums are naturally loud instruments and even a great drummer who can play with great dynamics and is conscious of his bandmates and surroundings (like ours ) can be stultified if he can't lay into them enough to get the full bodied tone. You can play drums softly (and you should where the music calls for it), but it doesn't generate the excitement of being able to really move air through the drum. When we have gigs where our drummer isn't able to do that due to volume issues - where we can't play with our full dynamic range in other words - we miss that. It's not as enjoyable for us. Rock'n'roll isn't cocktail music, and rock drumming has to have a certain amount of physical energy to get over. It's the same thing as guitarists go through with tube amps - there are some guitarists who are just flat out unconscious of the fact that their volume is out of control, and/or don't care. But for most of us, it's just a matter of being able to crank the amp loud enough to get its optimal tone - to get the tubes overdriving and the speaker moving air. If that isn't possible with a full size amp, given the room size and all, then I bring a smaller tube amp that I can crank without it killing everybody. And if a smaller drum kit allows a drummer to get big tones and play with lots of energy at lower volume, well, cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Gervais Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Originally posted by Lee Flier: On the other hand, full size drums are naturally loud instruments and even a great drummer who can play with great dynamics and is conscious of his bandmates and surroundings (like ours ) can be stultified if he can't lay into them enough to get the full bodied tone. You can play drums softly (and you should where the music calls for it), but it doesn't generate the excitement of being able to really move air through the drum. When we have gigs where our drummer isn't able to do that due to volume issues - where we can't play with our full dynamic range in other words - we miss that. It's not as enjoyable for us. Rock'n'roll isn't cocktail music, and rock drumming has to have a certain amount of physical energy to get over. It's the same thing as guitarists go through with tube amps - there are some guitarists who are just flat out unconscious of the fact that their volume is out of control, and/or don't care. But for most of us, it's just a matter of being able to crank the amp loud enough to get its optimal tone - to get the tubes overdriving and the speaker moving air. If that isn't possible with a full size amp, given the room size and all, then I bring a smaller tube amp that I can crank without it killing everybody. And if a smaller drum kit allows a drummer to get big tones and play with lots of energy at lower volume, well, cool!Lee, I understand exactly what you're saying...... which is why I own gear (amps) that runs from 30 watts to 1,000 watts. No matter the venue - you can power the head and speakers to get maximum response. I feel the same about drums - which is why i own as many as i do. But that doesn't deal with the problem of a drummer who (with whatever kit he owns) is playing over his band mates. That (IMHO) is just not drumming. Using tools to help with dynamics is one thing - and if the poster said that the dynamics of a larger kit weren't as effective in small venues - even though his drummer was playing at the right volume - I would have agreed that different drums would be the answer. I own a multitude of snares and 2 complete sets so I can play different venues without problems. But (in my mind anyway) it begins with a drummer having the abiity to match him or herself with the bands levels. That is drumming - that is playing - that is being a musician rather than someone who hangs around with musicians. By the way Lee........ as always - twas a pleasure to "see you" again. I hope the new year rings in great for you. Sincerely, Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Originally posted by Rod Gervais: But that doesn't deal with the problem of a drummer who (with whatever kit he owns) is playing over his band mates. That (IMHO) is just not drumming. Yeah I know what you're saying too... but... I think a musician playing live has two responsibilities: 1) to be responsive to one's bandmates, audience, room etc. like you say, and 2) to play as if your life depends on it... in other words to do whatever it takes to convey the emotion of the music. Unfortunately, a lot of times those two things can conflict with each other. Our drummer, like I said, is great at responding to the situation and playing at whatever volume he needs to play at... and he can play very very well at lower volume but... if we're playing in a small room and we start really getting into the music and the song calls for being loud and energetic, it's very hard not to get swept away by that and start playing harder and... oops, now it's too loud. Gotta back off. That just sucks. Not only for him but for us - we love it when at certain key points in the song the drums can just explode. And I'm never going to say that anybody is less of a musician for responding to the demands of the music. Like I said, sometimes that means conflicting things, unfortunately, and it can be a tough call... especially when budget or other limitations make it tough to fully express yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Gervais Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Originally posted by Lee Flier: it's very hard not to get swept away by that and start playing harder and... oops, now it's too loud. Gotta back off. Lee, Here we are in complete agreement. As I said - I do own a couple of different kits - one setup for smaller venues with about 1/2 the volume of my big kit......... cause it's nice to be able to cut loose and just go without worrying about it. But I can still play my big kit (if the need be) in any venue..... And yes......... it definately sucks if you can't open up every once in a while. Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Yeah I figured we were pretty much on the same page but it always helps to clarify! Happy New Year to you too Rod, and all the drummers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zele Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 The only way to control that volume Live or Studio http://fp2k.redshift.com/cjogo/uploads/DRUM_ANGLE.jpg C Jo Go Crystal Studios http://fp2k.redshift.com/cjogo/recording_studio.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edendude Posted January 6, 2005 Author Share Posted January 6, 2005 Rod/Lee... Nice to see the discussion continuing on this one. Unfortunately it seems that dynamic control is the most difficult skill for many drummers to master. This is certainly the area which my current drummer needs to work on the most. However, since he is an outstanding drummer with regard to every other aspect of playing the instrument, I am glad that the smaller and more compressed sounding kits have started to catch on, so he can use this type of kit as an 'aid' to controlling his dynamics, until he develops a full mastery of that skill. The drummer in my former band was an expert in the art of dynamic control. He could play a full-size kit at an acoustic rehearsal, and never drown out the rest of the musicians. While it would be nice if more drummers devoted a greater portion of their practice time to developing dynamic control, I realize it's not an ideal world. If my current drummer wasn't such a great player in every other way, I don't think I'd be singing the praises of these micro-kits so loudly. So yes, ultimately Rod is correct. More focus on dynamic control would be a great trend to see happening thoughout the drummers sub-culture. Until that happens, I thank the goddess of groove that these little kits exist. My Last Band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zele Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 With the pads >>> I can play large/small venues..the FOH or bandleader ~ has full control of my levels. I have a seperate monitor .. a Kurzweil sampler ~ with 10 outputs ~ goes direct to the board. A full kit, would be difficult, to even mic > the sound we achieve. (Not to mention how quickly I can set-up.) Different snares, etc. for each song if desired. (24 pads on the surface ) Dynamics are set in parameters--I can play soft/hard on a pad and get any feel. Here I am performing with a 60/70's rock string band == great Clapton & Page leads from this lead violinist {RE : the quieter you play the more you are paid } http://fp2k.redshift.com/cjogo/uploads/net%20group.jpg C Jo Go Crystal Studios http://fp2k.redshift.com/cjogo/recording_studio.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Gervais Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 I think that every drummer should practice his dynamics on a regular basis. What I do (during practice and jams - as well as on my own) is to come up with a pattern - and play it with all of the same accents and speeds - working from nothing more than a whisper (working the edges of the head) with all of the accompanying increases in slight volume for rim shots and other accents - and slowly work to the center of the drums with full power and volume. There's something quite beautiful with a guitar solo when the bass and drums are almost floating behind it.......... It really doesn't take a long time before one can develope some real good dynamics if they are consciously working towards that goal....... This works excptionally well with songs along the style of Summertime...... Do right..... even with Latin Funk - Blues, etc. You would be amazed how many different musical genres this type of control makes a difference with. I think that my main concern with the smaller kits is that even though you might get the maximum levels you want in a smaller club with the punch of playing full power - if the drummer isn't capable of using dynamics effectively then something is still drastically missing in the mix. I've always believed in developing ones-self as fully as pssible - and then looking for tools to increase one's effectiveness....... Just some food for thought...... Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 I agree Rod... dynamics is an element sadly missing from a lot of today's drummers. I think some of that comes from 20+ years of being told that "consistency" is the thing... having "inconsistently dynamic" hits getting replaced with samples, and everything compressed all to hell to remove any dynamic range from the drums. It's gotten to where many drummers just imitate that sound and are proud of it. Just another reason I appreciate our drummer so much... he has awesome dynamics... of course people have to slap me to get me to stop raving about our drummer in general so I'll just shut up now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Gervais Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Originally posted by Lee Flier: Just another reason I appreciate our drummer so much... he has awesome dynamics... of course people have to slap me to get me to stop raving about our drummer in general so I'll just shut up now. Lee, You're lucky - good drummers are real hard to find......... I love going to a show where the srummer really has a feel about what makes the song happen..... My band (been together for about 8 years now) had a drummer before me - that I had a chance to meet a few years back - and I let him switch my kit around and play a set. I really like this guy - he's a got a lot of talent - has a metronome built into his brain - but he was boring as hell to listen to because he had no dynamics what-so-ever. Every strike on the snare - every hit on a cymbal - every crash - was just as perfectly timed with exactly the same volume - as the ones before it. This was something the band commented on after I joined them - and I have ta tell you - it's sad listening to music that has no heart at all...... SO count your blessings every day for your drummer - and don't stop bragging on him no matter what. Oh - one other thing - from my perspective - I think your drummer is one lucky man as well..... I've listened to your music - and playing with you has it's own rewards as well....... It's certainly not a one way street....... Sincerely, Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Thanks for the kind words Rod. And no I never take our drummer for granted, he is the best, and all the drummers around here who've seen him agree! So I can brag on him with impunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedly Nightshade Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 I'm a funny drummer- I have absolutely magnificent tone, great dynamics, and where I could stand to improve quite a bit is in the timing department. Ouch! I really don't get these tiny bass drums- I guess the idea is you mic it up and EQ the crap out of it? Weird. An 18" can make a cool "pedal tom", but you need at least a 20" to make bass drum noises. I have a li'l 24" Ludwig & Ludwig I use for really quiet or marching gigs, but a 28" is my usual. It's not too loud by any means, nor is it too deep. I can get real bass drum sounds without mic'ing it up, great for acoustic music. I'm in awe of these jazz guys- not about their feeble little bass drums, which I DON'T get, about their dynamics. Yum yum yum, love those dynamics! A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM! "There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edendude Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 Speaking of AMAZING jazz drummers with AMAZING dynamic control... You need to hear and watch this DVD! http://www.branfordmarsalis.com/branford/images/coltranedvd170.jpg Jeff 'Tain' Watts is master of all things jazz drumming, like I have never seen or heard before. This CD was recorded live to HD video and audio in a small jazz club in Amsterdam, in March of 2003. The Branford Marsalis Quartet performs John Coltrane's ground-breaking 'A Love Supreme' jazz suite. It has become my number one favorite DVD in my entire collection, and most of the reason for that is down to Jeff 'Tain' Watts, and I'm not even a drummer! I shit thee not on this one! My Last Band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infusion Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 The point being made here is a very important one. I'm a keyboard player and like the guitarist and bass, my volume control is just a matter of turning the volume up or down. Drummers vary ALOT. If I play with (10) drummers, maybe 3 have the right kind of dynamic control to fit in with the bands overall volume. It's ridiculous. Moving air in the shells is one thing. Banging the shit out of your drums because that's the way you play or because you want to make sure you're heard is unacceptable. "Yeh, I'm a drummer. Now let's get down to jamming so I can beat the shit out of these skins." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedly Nightshade Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Man, my timing would be much better if I didn't care what it sounded like! It's SO easy to way overplay the cymbals, and these are really light cymbals too, and huge drums... A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM! "There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zele Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 The freedom to play "as you like" is what really drew me to the Fat Kat pads. Just being able to set the parameters for each pad --is a wonderful asset. You can play easy and still have plenty of punch through the mains. Just set your levels/dynamics and the cymbals are mixed perfectly >> no matter how hard you strike ..never too loud. I have 5 different bell/ride cymbals & 6 individual crashes ~~ It's like having a different kit for each set or song. C Jo Go Crystal Studios http://fp2k.redshift.com/cjogo/recording_studio.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWBass Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 The drummer in my band is pretty decent but does bang the crap outta his snare drum. I have to stand on his tom side of the kit because if I stand on the snare side, by the end of the night I usually have no high frequency hearing and my ears ring for a full day after!! On another note, Harvey Mason is one cat who has such a full command of his dynamics! Steve Smith is another! www.myspace.com/thefunkfather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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