I MUST find these hi hats!

[adam b_dup1]

they are the ones my drum teacher has, all he tells me is that they are Zildjians, and he is 80 years old so there is no telling the age on these. he plays mainly jazz and they have a great jazzy sound to them. he also has matching 18" and 20" rides for them. the only lettering i see on them is a very small, about 1/2" imprint, that says Zildjian cymbal co. they have a very bronze looking color to them, and they are the best sounding hats i have ever heard. he tells me they are old, but he doesn't know what types they are. the sound i get out of them are no sound i have ever heard from a hi hat. i have to find out what hats these are, they just sound so perfect!

[Allan Speers]

Adam,

 

If they are really 80 + years old, then they are K-Zildjians, made in Istanbul, turkey.

 

If they are a little younger, they could be made in constantinople, or even the USA. there is no way to tell you without more info, or a pic of the stamp.

 

the A zildjians were all made in the USA, and are not nearly as valuable. however, most of the pre 1950's A-Zildjians were still hand-made and excellent, though they tend to be brighter than the turkish ones.

 

there is a great resource for this at:

http://www.chadanderson.com/ubbthreads/

 

-Unfortunately, this site is temporarily down, and may be so for at least several more weeks. Post a pic here, or send it to me: speers@optonline.net and I'll try to look it up.

 

now the bad news: if these are indeed 80 year old K-Zildjians, and you miraculously find a pair on Ebay that haven't completely dissintegrated, you will likely have to pay somewhere between $600 and $1500 for them, and maybe more.

 

Luckily, you can get VERY close to that sound, for a reasonable price, with offereings from Bosphorus, Anatolian, Masterwork, and Istanbul. Here's a GREAT place to start the hunt:

 

http://cymbalsonly.com/

 

The owner, Tony, is a modo cool guy. Tell him what you want. even send him a recording of those hats, and ask him to match them. he'll do it for you, and he has great ears.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

If they are really 80 + years old, then they are K-Zildjians, made in Istanbul, turkey.

 

If they are a little younger, they could be made in constantinople.

Istanbul was Constantinople

Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople

Been a long time gone, Constantinople

Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

 

Every gal in Constantinople

Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople

So if you've a date in Constantinople

She'll be waiting in Istanbul

 

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam

Why they changed it I can't say

People just liked it better that way

 

So take me back to Constantinople

No, you can't go back to Constantinople

Been a long time gone, Constantinople

Why did Constantinople get the works?

That's nobody's business but the Turks'!

 

-- Lyrics by Jimmy Kennedy, 1953

 

(sorry couldn't resist. Wish I could help ya out with identifying the cymbals adam, but hopefully you learned something anyway. )

[Tedster]

Lee...

 

What if they'd been made in Leningrad?

[DC]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

 

Istanbul was Constantinople

Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople

Been a long time gone, Constantinople

Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

 

Every gal in Constantinople

Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople

So if you've a date in Constantinople

She'll be waiting in Istanbul

 

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam

Why they changed it I can't say

People just liked it better that way

 

So take me back to Constantinople

No, you can't go back to Constantinople

Been a long time gone, Constantinople

Why did Constantinople get the works?

That's nobody's business but the Turks'!

[/i]

 

-- Lyrics by Jimmy Kennedy, 1953

 

(sorry couldn't resist. Wish I could help ya out with identifying the cymbals adam, but hopefully you learned something anyway. )

I always thought 'They Might Be Giants' did a killer remake of that tune!

 

[Tedly Nightshade]

I heard the Might Be Giants remake once when puking sick and I still feel that way just looking at the lyrics... you know how that kind of thing goes!

 

The main thing about those old cymbals is that THEY ALL SOUND COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Did I emphasize that enough? There's not another pair like those anywhere at any price. Some of the same vintage are a lot worse, others may be better. That's the joy of handmade cymbals.

[Lee Flier]

Yeah I agree. You really just have to go around to pawn shops or wherever you might find cymbals, and try each one individually. It's a painstaking search for gold, for sure.

 

Our drummer's got the coolest sounding ride cymbal I've ever heard, an old Zildjian also. I guarantee another one of the same model and vintage wouldn't sound the same.

[adam b_dup1]

thanks for the help guys,

 

well im pretty sure they are not 80+ years old, i he told me he remembers he got them back in the 60's or 70's. At my next lesson il look at the fine print on them and try to find out all the info i can, im wondering maybe if zildjian still makes these types of hi-hats, but just newer models.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by adam b:

thanks for the help guys,

 

well im pretty sure they are not 80+ years old, i he told me he remembers he got them back in the 60's or 70's. At my next lesson il look at the fine print on them and try to find out all the info i can, im wondering maybe if zildjian still makes these types of hi-hats, but just newer models.

Nothing Zildjian makes today is hand hammered or hand lathed. Which is to say, nothing they make today is anything like anything they made in the 60's or 70's.

 

Other companies do make handlathed and hand hammered cymbals today. They are all different, and none of them is like an old Zildjian A or K.

 

Again, it's the specific cymbals, not the model.

[Allan Speers]

good point, Ted.

 

One could argue that, for rock cymbals, there is no significant difference between true hand hammering, and a technician guiding a hammering machine by hand. However, with jazz cymbals, the inconsistency of true hand hammering arguably add to the complexity of the sound.

 

BTW: I did a little research. It seems that the master, roberto spizzichino, not only makes the world's best jazz rides, but does occasionally make hats as well. If you want the absolute best available, with a full life expectancy and excellent resale value (used ones always sell for more than new ones) you can contact his american "distributor":

 

Lee Ruff jaz@nfdc.net

 

From what I've read, you can send Roberto a cymbal to copy, or send a recording, or a track from your favorite jazz album, and he will nail it for you. His reputation speakes for itself.

 

i have no idea how much a new set of spizz hats would cost, though his rides go for about $650 American.

 

if I played jazz, I would absolutely have some spizz cymbals in my bag. Of course, I'd also have some old A Zildjians, too. what I WOULDN'T have is any old K Zildjains, because the collectors have made the prices go insanely high, and as mentioned above, a lot of them are not so great, to put it mildly.

[coyote]

One must not know rock music all that well to make such an assumption. If your definition of rock begins at Chuck Berry and ends at KISS you may be right; of course that ignores the wide range of textured music that falls under the rock genre.

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

One could argue that, for rock cymbals, there is no significant difference between true hand hammering, and a technician guiding a hammering machine by hand.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Unless we're talking about some kind of modern rock or heavy metal, I would disagree strongly and say handmade cymbals are the only thing worth looking at, with a very few exceptions. John Bonham, Mitch Mitchell, Ginger Baker, these guys were all jazz drummers playing rock, on jazz kits, with jazz cymbals, just balls out and loud. Bonham used Paiste 602's, in between those and old Zildjian A's you ought to do great. Zildjian A's are dirt cheap too- buy 10 off ebay and sell the ones you don't like- they're all totally different.

 

As for old Istanbul Zildjian K's, I have bought a few off ebay, and they are all fantastic cymbals. I can only wonder what the really fine one's were like. My 20" Istanbul K cost me $500, and well, well worth it.

 

As for Spizzichino, he's subject to the luck of the draw like all hand-makers. He can't control what it will be like except in a general sense. I have one Spizzichino 20" ride that is incredibly fine- it's like nothing I've ever heard, and a lot of gigs I play it as my only cymbal (other than hats), doing crash and ride duties both. I can get an endless variety of tones from that thing. God it's beautiful!

 

My main call hats are two trashy old Zildjian A's. One is a sheetmetal cymbal, really cheap, I almost sold them both for $50 but am glad I didn't!

 

If you don't have much money, old Zildjian A's will serve you very well- when I use a cymbal that cost me $30 next to one that cost me $600, that tells you something!

[Allan Speers]

Ted,

 

You and coyote completely missed my point. I am differentiating between hand-guided, machine hammering vs true hand hammering (old K's). American K's, Paiste Sigs, and the like are all machine-hammered, but a skilled craftsman guides the machine.

 

Quote: "Bonham used Paiste 602's, in between those and old Zildjian A's ....." Yep, and neither 602' nor post 1950's Zildjian A's were truly hand-hammered. That's my point exactly.

 

-So you are, in fact, agreeing with me!

--------------

 

Coyote,

I've been a recording engineer and pro musician for 30 years, and as much as I love Chuck Berry and Kiss, I have actually heard of progressive rock. My satement is absolutely true. In fact, some "experts" would even argue that there is NO difference between those two forms of production. I wouldn't personally go that far, but it's an interesting argument.

[Angelo Clematide]

i have 3 pair of those old original "K" Hi-Hats, two 14" and one 15"

 

It happen that i visited the Sonor factory in Germany 30 years ago and they had ca. 2000 original K in stock and i bought 60 cymbals i selected in more then a day out of those ca. 2000.

 

http://www.istanbulcymbals.com/

http://www.istanbulcymbals.com.tr/html/cymbals.htm

 

If you go to Istanbul you still can buy them new in the factory. With this K's you have to invest time to select the right weight because each one is individually made by hand. Do not buy K's without trying. search "Zildjian Istanbul"

The old did not have a signature on. Never clean this cymbals.

 

see here:

http://www.vintagedrum.com/item/K-Zildjian-1940s-1950s-1960s-1970s-VI-KZ

 

Zildjian K Istanbul cymbals, are Zildjian K series cymbals made in Turkey. The term "Istanbul" is used to distinguish them from other Zildjian K series cymbals, which were made in Canada. Cymbals have been made in Istanbul for centuries, and there are many other traditional cymbal works there currently, including Masterwork, Anatolian, Turkish and Bosphorus. Byzance (a subsidiary of Meinl)is located in Samsun/Turkey.

 

The Istanbul brand name was adopted by a cymbal works established by two cymbalsmiths, Mehmet Tamdeger and Agop Tomurcuk. These cymbals were first exported to the USA in 1984 ????? , firstly under the name "Zildjiler", but the name was changed to "Istanbul" shortly thereafter. Both craftsmen signed each cymbal. Some of these superb and irreplaceable cymbals are now collectors' items. Following Agop's death in 1997, Mehmet assumed control of this factory, and the cymbals it makes are now sold as Istanbul Mehmet. The other cymbal works, since established by surviving members of Agop's family, produces Istanbul Agop.

 

Mehmet claims to have learnt his art from Mikhail Zilcan (sometimes spelled Zildjian), the grandson of Kerope Zilcan after whom the Zildjian K series is named. In the 1950s, he worked in the K Zildjian factory in Istanbul.

 

Some but not all of the current ranges of Istanbul Agop and Istanbul Mehmet overlap. Both have lines called Traditional, Turk and Sultan, and within these lines many but not all models are in common. Both also have models and whole series of cymbals not duplicated in the other's catalog at present. They continue to be well received by drummers seeking the sound of traditional handmade cymbals.

 

http://www.fact-index.com/i/is/istanbul_cymbals.html

 

______________________________________________________________

UFIP in Pistoia, Italy is another Cymbalsmith with a history of 600 years i visited long ago, those Cymbals are even more special then the K's.

http://www.ufip.com/

http://www.scottamendola.com/photopage/ufip.html

[Allan Speers]

Great info, Angelo!

 

-thanks.

[adam b_dup1]

sorry guys, haven't been on the forums in a while but i took a closer look at the hats at my last lesson, to my surprise, they said they were turkish cymbals but it says they are made in the USA and also it says something like "Avedas" on them too, thats whats on the little imprint on the metal.

 

I hope that helps

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

Ted,

 

You and coyote completely missed my point. I am differentiating between hand-guided, machine hammering vs true hand hammering (old K's). American K's, Paiste Sigs, and the like are all machine-hammered, but a skilled craftsman guides the machine.

 

Quote: "Bonham used Paiste 602's, in between those and old Zildjian A's ....." Yep, and neither 602' nor post 1950's Zildjian A's were truly hand-hammered. That's my point exactly.

 

-So you are, in fact, agreeing with me!

OK, I was thinking "hand-lathed" as well- nothing, but nothing, ever, under any circumstances at all, will substitute for hand-lathing. Machine hammering I guess is OK if it's so slight you aren't really noticing the cymbals are hammered at all, like the old Zildjian A's and the 602, if indeed they are hammered at all?

[Allan Speers]

Adam writes,

 

"i took a closer look at the hats at my last lesson, to my surprise, they said they were turkish cymbals but it says they are made in the USA and also it says something like "Avedas" on them too,"

 

Oh boy...

 

Well, it was a good thread, regardless.

 

OK, Adam: Up until about 1970 or so, A-Zildjian only made two basic hats, the regular ones (most common) and the New Beast. the latter, I believe, were first introduced in the late 60's, but I'm not positive.

 

The New Beats were much brighter, meant for pop and rock, so I assume your teacher has plain ones. These did not change much over the years, though SOME of them from the 50's and earlier were hand-made. They are all pretty dark and soft. Some can aproach the complexity of a really good K, but they have a little more edfe to them.

 

I have about twelve pairs right now (seriously) as I spent last year collecting them. I really like ols A-Zildjians, wehen you find good ones. I even have a few pairs from the 50's, and they are very sweet.

 

I might be persuaded to sell you a nice pair if you want (I plan on selling most of them, and I'm not a jazzer so the darker ones will probably go first) but of course there's no guarantee that you will like them. Old zildjians vary more than any other brand.

 

Lemme know if you're interested. maybe I can make some MP3's.

 

speers@optonline.net