Do I need a double kick-pedal?

[Allan Speers]

This should be interesting...

 

As you all probably know by now, I'm a studio owner, and only a part-time, extremely inexperienced drummer. I have begun to record some basic grooves myself, and had to decide on the kick-pedal thing. thanks to many responses on my previous "which pedal" thread, I settled on the Tama iron cobra. I like that it responds faster than the DW5000, however this also makes it, for me, less accurate. I'm VERY picky about groove, and of course don't have a well-developed foot.

 

so, I figured that having a double-pedal would help me play more complex parts with accuracy, especially certain hip-hop beats.

 

Now that I have the double-pedal set-up, I'm questioning this. Dealing with the hats is a bit of a pain, of course, but also I will slowly develop my foot, so maybe......

 

Do you think that, short of playing metal-inspired music, a double-pedal has it's place in my kit?

 

-and if so, what is your preferred way (including specific hardware) to deal with the hats?

 

Thanks, much. You guys have been a tremendous help this year!

[Super 8]

I don't have any use for them myself. A good single developed foot will handle just anything you need up to at least 8th note triplets.

 

Rumor has it that John Bonham would show up at the studio with a double bass set up, and the band members would take the second drum and hide just before recording because they felt he could play more with one foot than most people could play with two.

 

I say stick with a single pedal. I'm sure most people would say go with two. But two under-developed feet aren't gonna get you anywhere...

[schmee]

agreed 8.

 

in a similar position myself - but i started set drumming (after a few years of practice pad & sticks drumming), by working that foot and i have to say it's given more of clue about feel and groove - while i will never pretend to have a real right foot capability worth spitting on.

 

ie, work the foot and learn how to double on one foot if you really want to open up your feel capabiltiies/awareness imho. in my experience using a double will only detract from your ability to use the hat properly (ie without using your hands) and incline on to rely upon a different conception of what's happening in doubles in the whole 'all four limbs' thing - and i don't mean chops, i mean things like throwing doubles to force a funk feel and such like.

 

it's an extremely humble opine tho =)

[dayvel]

The hihat is the most expressive element of the whole kit; you don't want to give it up just to get in a few more licks on the BD. Besides, nothing kills a groove faster than hyperactive bass drum.

[rebonn]

Sounds like you could be having a hard time switching your foot back and fourth from the hi hat. Having a double pedal myself, I couldn't live without a 2 legged hi hat so the pedal sits right next to the bass pedal. When I had 2 bass drums, I used a hoop mount for the hi hat where it folded up so the hi hat pedal was next to the bass pedal. This way, it's more like a single set up and after you get more experienced with the double bass, you can start working it in. Also, this way, a single bass player can come in and not feel awkward not having to move alot of things around.

[Siberian]

I'm not quite sure I understand your question regarding the hihats. Are you referring to the physical placement of a hihat stand next to a double pedal? If so, then there are hihat stands out there that have only two legs. The pedal itself acts as the 3rd leg. This allows you to position the left kick pedal right next to the hihat stand.

 

In fact, Tama has pre-drilled holes in the hihat and kick pedal that allow you to attach an L-bracket which would connect the two together, keeping them snug right next to each other, and firmly in position. You can purchase said bracket from Tama, or just make your own.. which is what I did.

[coyote]

All my life I played single kick, and did just fine.

 

But there's an art and a magic to playing double. I wish I'd learned it much earlier in life just because of the FUN factor. You can double up on all the fancy trills you do on your single pedal - and while you wouldn't want to do it much it can be very effective if done sporadically (and of course musically). And naturally, there are certain heavy rock things that simply work better with a double-bassdrum driving them.

[where02190]

While there are some amazing single footed drummer out there, there are things you jsut cannot do on a single kick. However, IMHO it is more important to get the single pedal technic down before moving to double.

 

having said that, I prefer to play two phical base drums rather than one drum being struck as if it was two. The real secret to killer double bass is two differently tuned drums.

[Bugsy34]

I agree with most, learn the single pedal first, then move on to two pedals. I play both ways and I also use two sets of hats (left/Right). A hat clutch is a must, its a quick release lever used to release the top hat with the flick of a stick.

 

Some people play the kick with the top part of their foot while using the bottom part for the hihat, I find that to uncomfortable myself. There are a few companies making a double pedal/hihat combo. The secong kick and the hat use the same pedal, to switch between the two, you simply move your foot to the left or right to engage which ever one you want to play. I have not tried one yet, so I won't comment on them.

 

As far as the studio goes, it never hurts to have a double bass setup, whether it be a double bass, or a single bass with a double pedal.

 

Check out Mike Pornoy (Dream Theater) for some great double kick action.

 

Good Luck

Tim

[Allan Speers]

Great stuff here, thanks all. I expected and was sort of hoping that everyone would talk me OUT of using the double, but there are some good arguments here to keep it as well. (BTW, I agree wholeheartedly with "where" that two seperate drums sound much better. maybe later I'll get to that.)

 

I'm still undecided. I think the trick would be to have a double-pedal but not RELY on it, and this brings back the ergonomics / equipment issues:

 

Good to know about the 2-legged hats stand and clamp. I had no idea about that. What I was referring to had more to do with how to quickly get back and forth between a clamped hat and an open hat.

 

Is there any kind of gizmo that you can activate with your foot, or perhaps with a stick, while in the middle of a tune? I'd like to be playing mostly with normal hats, and just switch to latched-hats when I need the double kick. Is this at all possible?

 

Also, (remember, I'm new to this stuff) does having the double-kick in place force you to compromise where the hats are placed, to the detriment of single-pedal playing?

[Rod Gervais]

Ther is a quick release made for the high hat that when you tap it it drops the hat until you again press the pedal....... however i don't use it.

 

I play the 2nd pedal (with my right foot) with my toe and hadle the high hat at the same time with my heel.

 

That way i give up nothing.

 

HOWEVER - i agree with the general consensus here that the trick is to learn to play properly with your right foot ( would be the left for a leftie like me) and learn the nuances of the high hat... once you have this down - add in your other pedal.........

 

Rod

[djarrett]

Allan:

 

I think I understand your plight and your quiries regarding the dynamics of using double pedal with a hihat pedal.

 

Couple of things:

 

1) Playing Double Bass Pedal vs. Single Pedal- Definately an art. I do play both and pretty well. I do not, however, find a lot of practical application of double bass. You certainly want to make sure you have the basics of bass, snare and hihat down before you venture out to double bass.

 

2) Adding Double Pedal to your set-up- When you decide to add double bass, make sure that you chose a pedal that will double as a single pedal and a double pedal. This way, you keep your primary pedal the same all the time. Additionally, you want to chose a pedal that will allow you to have the stretch (or space) you need to reach all the way over to your hihat. Some folks use the second pedal board to the right of the hihat footboard, and others use it to the left. Personal preference prevails. The use of the two legged hihat stand has been a life saver for me in this situation.

 

3) Using the hihat effectively with double pedal- You will want to get a "drop-clutch" for your hihat. The drop-clutch allows you to "drop" the top cymbal to allow for a closed hihat while playing the second pedal. To dis-engage the top cymbal, you simply hit the clutch drop lever with your stick and the top hat allows you to play a closed hihat. To re-engage the hihat's top cymbal, you simply step back on the hihat footboard. This will allow you to start raising and lowering the top cymbal again. You may also want to consider a set of mini-hats with an "X-hat" holder (this is a holder that simply holds a pair of small hi-hat cymbals in a tight closed position.)

 

Hope this helps.

 

DJ

[coyote]

HEY! Great thought - I'd never considered putting the "other side" of the double pedal all the way on the far side of the hihat. I'll have to try that. Thanks!

 

Originally posted by djarrett:

Some folks use the second pedal board to the right of the hihat footboard, and others use it to the left.

DJ

[Siberian]

Allan, as others have said, the "drop clutch" is your best bet. DW makes one, which I use, and it works great. I use it for passages where I want to ride double kicks and still have a closed hihat.

 

The only drawback to that setup is you can't really adjust the "wash" of the hats when you drop the top hat down. The top hat just rests on the bottom one with it's full weight and the resulting sound is a semi-tight "chick" sound. If you want more of a loose "wash", you'd have to have your foot on the pedal, holding it partially open, but that kind of defeats the purpose of the drop clutch to begin with. If you want to know what it would sound like, just take your existing hihats and loosen the nut holding the top hat in place, allowing it to drop down. Now ride on it... see.. it's not realy washy... it's sorta dead sounding.

 

To address that problem, I used to use a 2nd set of hats on a fixed stand. You adjust the height of the top hat until you have the right "wash", then just permanently lock it in place. Then when you are playing douple kicks and still want that semi-closed, loose, loud "wash" as opposed to a tight "chick", you just ride on the fixed hats.

 

I have an idea for a product that would address this problem, but I can't talk about it yet because I am still designing it and I wouldn't want someone to steal my idea.

[Allan Speers]

IS THIS A GREAT FORUM OR WHAT?

 

I can't believe how much useful info I've gotten from these various drum threads this year. Over on the Keyboards threads, all they talk about is sports. -or troll wars.

 

You guys (and gals) are fantastic. Thanks, and keep the great ideas coming!

------------------------------

 

The setup I'm leaning towards now:

 

Since I use a Roland V-kick (taboo, I know, but it works great for me) and space is not an issue, I'm probably going to use two kick pads (maybe the cheaper, smaller one for my left foot) with two seperate single-pedals. I would still use the 2-legged hats stand, the drop clutch, and the extra hats in semi-closed position. - Now that it's been brought up, I think that a semi-closed, washy hat sound is going to be more useful during amnic double-kick parts.

 

This gives several advantages:

 

1: As "Where" mentioned, a more interseting double-hit.

 

2: If needed, I can change the left kick to something else, like tambs or cowbell, or even an 808 analog kick for doing accents and hip-hop beats (where two very different kicks are often used at once)

 

3: When the second kick is not needed, the pedal can be stored out of the way.

 

4: I can use two different kick pedals, which gives me a choice for my rt foot.

 

5: As I typically use 14" hats, I can use 13's for the clamp-mounted, 2nd hats, and thus have a second sound even when playing with a single kick.

 

6: After getting the 2-legged hats stand, I can keep one of my alternate 14" hats on the old stand, either to audition before recording a track, or even further to the left as a THIRD useful hat.

------------------------------------------------

 

Except for the cost, this seems like a no-brainer to me. To Dayvel, Super8, and Shmee, I promiss to work on my single-pedal technique first! (your points are well-taken)

[Bugsy34]

The only drawback to that setup is you can't really adjust the "wash" of the hats when you drop the top hat down. The top hat just rests on the bottom one with it's full weight and the resulting sound is a semi-tight "chick" sound. If you want more of a loose "wash", you'd have to have your foot on the pedal, holding it partially open, but that kind of defeats the purpose of the drop clutch to begin with. If you want to know what it would sound like, just take your existing hihats and loosen the nut holding the top hat in place, allowing it to drop down. Now ride on it... see.. it's not realy washy... it's sorta dead sounding

You can make this a little better by adjust the bottom cup to hold the bottom hat at a slight angle, then, loosen the top hat on the drop clutch. When you want the tight sound you have by applying pressure with the pedal even though the top hat is loose. Still not the greatest, but does help. This is also one of the reasons I use two hihats. The left hihat is used in the traditional way, with a drop clutch. The right hihat also has a drop clutch, but is normally left in the closed/dropped postion, in the raised position, it is setup loose, and just barely touching the bottom hat, so as to get that wash sound.

 

While this setup may not work for everyone, it works very well for me.

 

Tim