paulisdead Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Hi guys, this is my first post on this board so I hope someone can answer my question. Ive been listening to a lot of 60s recording lately (especially early The Beatles and The Who) and I was interested in the drum sounds they got back then with the limitations of 2 and 4 track recording. Ive wanted to try and capture something similar to these sounds and I was wondering if someone could give me some advice on mic placement. Ive heard some recordings where the bass drum is strong but the toms and snare are weak and vice-a-versa. Also I take it they only used one or two mics on a kit (Ive seen photos of one mic being used), did they use a condenser over the kit? How was it placed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretsch Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 two mics overheads for Beatles' Ludwig kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretsch Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 oh yeah, who would use a condenser mic on Drums?? try cardioid mics, strong, resistant, robust to any kicking, great omnidirectional pick-up pattern, ideal for bearing high level of pressure,especially from kicks!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
where02190 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Originally posted by Gretsch: try cardioid mics, strong, resistant, robust to any kicking, great omnidirectional pick-up pattern,Huh? Cardiod mic,.omni pickup pattern? Back to audio 101 for you. Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Originally posted by Gretsch: oh yeah, who would use a condenser mic on Drums?? I, for one. Lots of others do, too. In fact, Kenny Aronoff used to use an AKG 414 on his snare (a little extreme, in my opinion, but it worked). I use them for overheads. where02190 is right...back to Audio 101 for you. I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsmgr1 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I worked on some sessions with Ringo, he told me the key to the Beatles' drum sound was a pair of Coles 4038's as overheads...Many times heavily compressed...Other mics were often used for kick and snare (depending on particular song requirements) but the Coles were the principles...Hope that helps... Chris - "Been there, Done that" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_F_H_13 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Come to think of it.....I don't know to many people who don't use condensers on drums sooner or later...... Gretsch: Your post didn't make any sense....good try though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
where02190 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 My first choice for toms is 414's or Shure 98's...and most of my standard kit mics are condensors. Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretsch Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 wo, guys really??? condenser mics on a snare maybe but on a kick? ok, I am not scared of going back to school!!! never too late to learn.... or is it??? according to you lot yes. Oh poor me!!! Ok , I will stick to me bass then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretsch Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 question, are you guys saying we do things differently down here in UK?? I mean a Shure 58 (apart from vocals) would be used on a kick.... or do I really need to go back to school? any good ones in USA? somewhere far from hurricanses and politicians would be nice suggestion, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretsch Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 oh and by the way, i will definitely check my school notes tonight , see if I got the english words wrong, or the actual mic itself... still no need to gang up on me you lot , just simply say I was (allegedly) wrong, so long as you help the guy above....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
where02190 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 The Audio Technica 4033A and the AKG C4000B is excellent on bass drums, and both are condensors. Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 OK, I think we've made it clear that most people do use condensers on drums. Now to answer the question....heheh. Hey Paulisdead, yes, most of the 60's drums were recorded using only 2 or 3 mics. Ribbon mics like the Coles 4038 were very popular, and I still think ribbons sound great on drums - I have a Beyer M160 which is cheaper than the Coles, but sounds great... I mean hey, Led Zep's "When The Levee Breaks" used two of these on the drums, and nothing else. Nuff said. Most of the studio shots I've seen of Ringo show one mic at about his ear level, centered over the snare more or less, and the other out in the room a bit. Glyn Johns recorded Keith Moon with 3 mics, 2 of them more or less overhead and one room mic out a few feet in front of the kick. Really the best way to get the sounds is to walk around with a mic while the drummer plays and listen until you end up with it in a good spot. Sometimes even a few inches can make all the difference. Also, the drum kit itself is really important in getting that sound. Gotta have smaller drums with fresh heads and no muffling, and know how to tune them right. And of course, the right drummer is very key also! The Who and a lot of the other 60's bands also used a ton of plate reverb and compressed the crap out of it. That's such an exciting sound! You can check out my band's web site if you want, there are a lot of MP3's on there and we go for a very 60's sound. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretsch Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Well, guys, here comes the dilemma again! I am sorry but using condensers on drums is a no no, option. Yes I have checked my notes (so dont start telling me to go to school) {hate teachers anyway} not only that, but did some research round here. NO ONE would dare, as for myself I would never put a delicate mic near drums specially bass drum, not to mention near a drummer ( ) oopss... Over to you... this is integring cos at first I was shocked to hear your views but now it is a question of understanding why!!!!! I mean is this down to the kind of track/drummers you lot record/use? If any of yous would like further reading (he he) chekc copies of trade mags, do any recommend or even suggest the use of condensers on drums over there in USA? I think I will phone George Martin now, cos you lot got me intrigued.... I mean although a lot of times He used session drummers instead of RINGO (who wouldn't? btw just kidding!) you still would not use a condenser on drums neither if it is Ringo, erhm, drumming!!!! Over to yous .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy34 Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 I was using my AT 4033 on my kick, till a few people on the Mackie forum said I was nuts! Crap! I don't know what to do anymore! I read some interesting articles on using speakers for mics on bass drums, although I have not tried it yet, it sounds like it should work great. You have to , of course, use another mic along with it to get the snap of the head, if I remember correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Gretsch, I'm not trying to be rude but you are just plain wrong, and it's obvious that you don't have much, if any, experience in commercial studios. I've been in studios since 1979 and I can assure you, I've worked on (or seen anyone else work on) very few drum tracking sessions that didn't include the use of condenser mics. Yes, there are some delicate and expensive mics that can't handle the sound pressure levels, and there are also some that you might not want to close mic a tom or snare with because the drummer might hit it accidentally. But condensers are very typically used for overheads (usually small diaphragm), and a large diaphragm condenser is often used as a room mic or a few feet out in front of the kick as a second kick mic. Many people also use condensers on snare. I like a 414 myself, and at my home studio I use a CAD E-100 which is a small diaphragm condenser. Condensers are more capable than dynamics or ribbons at capturing the full frequency range of the instrument, therefore if you really want an open full bodied sound with crispness on the snare and cymbals, you pretty much have to use them. Also, all of the Beatles' recording sessions are well documented, and there was only one session where any drummer other than Ringo was used and that was their first session. Sir George hadn't heard Ringo play yet (he'd just joined the band after they'd fired Pete Best) and didn't want to take any chances on the first single. Sorry dude, but I think it's pretty obvious that you hate teachers, since you clearly haven't done your homework. Back to school for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsmgr1 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Originally posted by Lee Flier: Gretsch, I'm not trying to be rude but you are just plain wrong, and it's obvious that you don't have much, if any, experience in commercial studios. I've been in studios since 1979 and I can assure you, I've worked on (or seen anyone else work on) very few drum tracking sessions that didn't include the use of condenser mics.Very true...read on... Yes, there are some delicate and expensive mics that can't handle the sound pressure levels, and there are also some that you might not want to close mic a tom or snare with because the drummer might hit it accidentally. But condensers are very typically used for overheads (usually small diaphragm), and a large diaphragm condenser is often used as a room mic or a few feet out in front of the kick as a second kick mic. Coles, Royers or KM84's typically used for overheads...(And KM84's on Hat when desired)... Many people also use condensers on snare. I like a 414 myself, and at my home studio I use a CAD E-100 which is a small diaphragm condenser. Condensers are more capable than dynamics or ribbons at capturing the full frequency range of the instrument, therefore if you really want an open full bodied sound with crispness on the snare and cymbals, you pretty much have to use them. Also, all of the Beatles' recording sessions are well documented, and there was only one session where any drummer other than Ringo was used and that was their first session. Sir George hadn't heard Ringo play yet (he'd just joined the band after they'd fired Pete Best) and didn't want to take any chances on the first single. Sorry dude, but I think it's pretty obvious that you hate teachers, since you clearly haven't done your homework. Back to school for you!Sorry, Gretsch...But I totally concur with what Lee has said...And Ringo can verify it all! Chris - "Been there, Done that" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretsch Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 well, a) never said I had the experience of a lifetime!!! But will see where my recordings will go and where yours will be in the long term and what (MORE IMPORTANTLY) they will sound like..... cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsmgr1 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Originally posted by Gretsch: well, a) never said I had the experience of a lifetime!!! But will see where my recordings will go and where yours will be in the long term and what (MORE IMPORTANTLY) they will sound like..... Gretsch, Please! Nobody is "flaming" whatever technique you are using, however, we have only posted what is KNOWN to be acceptable (and successful) techniques used for decades... If you wish to post some examples of your drum recordings (or a credit list) and make a comparison to others on this thread then please do so...There are many different techniques used to record every different facet of sessions...But you have now "challenged" the entire forum membership to "better" what you have done? Okay, what exactly HAVE you done? Sorry if this sounds like a "flame" because it isn't...But, IMO, you're WAY off base in both your advice to paulisdead and your pompousness (especially at your age as shown in your profile) unless you are recording some entirely "new" form of music that none of us may be aware of and you're predicting that the "sound" will last forever...If that is the case, congratulations! Any further replies from you are welcome, AFAIC... Chris - "Been there, Done that" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Yeah, what Chris said. If you want to make your own recordings using whatever techniques you like and work for you, great! We all do. Trying unconventional things is a great part of the craft! However, the original question was about how drums were recorded in the 1960's! And people most definitely did use condenser mics on drums back then (and still do). Lots of C12's and Telefunken 251's in those days... yummy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsmgr1 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Thanks, Lee... I was begining to think I was being "ignored" Anyway, I hope I made my point about "experimenting" in EVERY facet...If it works, If it ain't broke...GO FOR IT! Good luck to you, and to all the rest who continue to participate! (BTW, sorry to see you don't visit GM's forum more often as I fear it will soon be closed and there is SUCH a wealth of knowledge to be gained there, even if only for future reference...) I just posted a qoute from GM on CA's forum that kinda tells it all...Despite his busy schedule at AES, he found the time to email me over the weekend in response to an email I sent him. I look forward to hearing from him again soon. Another, BTW...I've never met you (or talked with you aside from hear) but your posts are usually "right-on" and I enjoy reading them!) Happy "tracks" to all! Chris - "Been there, Done that" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 Thanks Chris, I enjoy your posts as well! And congrats for getting to do a session with Ringo! That rocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsmgr1 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Originally posted by Lee Flier: Thanks Chris, I enjoy your posts as well! And congrats for getting to do a session with Ringo! That rocks. Thanks again, Lee for the kind comment... Sorry to be so long posting but I've been dealing with 14 hour days on a project (and trying to squeeze in some & "wife" time when the day is over...) As an almost 50 year-old studio guy, I still enjoy the learning experience and enjoy sharing the microcosm of whatever knowledge I have gained over the years from the fine people I have had the pleasure of sharing studio time with (yeah, a dangling participle but I don't feel like retyping... Were my 23 year-old son interested in studio work (he isn't, but he's doing very well in his career choice) I would encourage him to visit forums such as this to learn from the many "masters" who offer "free" advice on a variety of studio matters! Ain't the internet a *wonderful* thing... Anyway, I sincerely hope that "constructive" information posts will continue in these forums...I also hope that the "younger" readers will consider the advice and suggestions as a starting point to give them inspiration to strive for the betterment of their own works and, at the same time, bettering the industry as a whole. Whoa! Guess I'm tired and *really* need some sleep...Sorry to ramble on about something that, perhaps, I'm the the only interested in today... Happy Tracks To All... Chris - "Been there, Done that" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not coaster MODERATOR Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 it might have been lee who suggested from inside the kick drum aiming the kick mic at the floor tom. well i did this with a 57 and voilla, it's perfect, no eq needed. i'm still tweaking a pair of octavias 012's as o/h's, and a second 57 on my snare. so what i'm saying is that with a $400 budget assortment of mics, i'm zeroing in on a good old school sound. i agree that the jr kits are great for recording. mine cost $300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remainanon Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Also, all of the Beatles' recording sessions are well documented, and there was only one session where any drummer other than Ringo was used and that was their first session. While we're keeping each other honest let's correct that statement, shall we? On several tracks recorded in 1968 the drummer was a fellow named Paul McCartney. Specifically, "Birthday", "Dear Prudence", "Sexy Sadie" (this one is the subject of some debate, but the track sure sounds like Paul). There are a couple others on the White album... Also a little ditty called "The Ballad of John and Yoko", which is Macca for sure. Regarding miking, there are a bunch of different styles that were prevalent through the 60s. I'm well-versed in them, as I spent a chunk of the late '90s working on tracks that were meant to sound _exactly_ like the original hits.. These originals were tracked by the likes of Phil Ramone, Lee Hirschberg, Chuck Britz, Larry Levine. In a few cases I was able to refer directly to the people involved; in others there were more forensics involved - studio documentation, photos, and above all ears. If you want to talk about Beatles, there were 2 distinct eras of drum sounds, each associated with the engineer on the session. Early on, and up to about the beginning of '66 it was mainly a fellow named Norman Smith. His approach evolved a bit through the years, but the basic story was a single BBC STC4038 (before Coles...) hung above Ringo's head, and an AKG D20 a foot or so in front of the kick. Options included an extra dynamic near the ride cymbal/floor tom area, and an under snare mike, which was usually a KM54. When Geoff Emerick took over, he made a few adjustments, although the most radical changes were in the amping/processing of the sounds. Look at the session documentation from around '67 and you don't see the STC4038 so much - in fact often there was a crappy AKG D19C hung over the snare, as a general kit mike. Another one would pick up floor tom, and you might see one under the single-headed rack tom. The kick mike was still the D20, but it was pushed right up into the drum and the drum was deadened with a big woollen sweater. You still have the KM54 under the snare, which was also turned up quite a bit louder in the mix (which was done straight to tape, remember... ) Another important feature of the Beatles drum sound is the fact that, because they got into using 4 tracks to do 50 overdubs, the original rhythm tracks would often be quite a few generations down, having been copied from master to master to open up new tracks. On quite a few of their songs you can hear that they went in and re-did the drums right on top of the old track, to regain presence and brightness. Also I believe the master bass tracks were often left until quite late in the recording. Also, they were quite happy to push the drum fader up and down during the mix, which, in addition to the sometimes extreme compression being done, would create some unique and identifiable sounds. Now, let's talk about some other styles. Say, hi-fi jazz from the very early sixties. Depending on the label (which usually owned the studio) the main element in drum sounds was the overall setup of the room. Young engineers, take note - you've got mikes, knobs, faders, outboard gear, hotly-debated A/D converters, etc etc . But in many cases the most important thing is where you put the drummer's chair. On "Kinda Blue" by Miles Davis (which has an absolutely breathtaking sound overall, especially the drums) I don't see anything in the photos other than a Neumann M49 out in front of the kit. A very common approach was also to use the simplest setup - a nice condenser for the overall top of the kit, and any of a number of mikes nearer the kick drum. Mixed down to one track, often with the bass guitar added. Make sure you have your rehearsals done... Another seriously important factor in 1960s drum sounds is the fact that, in almost every case, the drummer was not hitting very hard. They were grooving hard, but the constrictions of the studio forced people to play somewhere below the maximum volume. Hugely important to the sound, folks. And finally, having barely scratched the surface, we should add that in most cases the drum setup didn't change from session to session. The same room, mikes, engineer, and often the same drummer for months and years on end. So probably not a lot of repeatedly hitting the kick drum looking for a sound. They had literally years to get it right. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beatnik Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 For Remainanon: IN THE BOOKS OF DOWLDING, AND MacDonald, Ringo appears as the drummer for "Birthday" and "Sexy Sadie". "Creo en la Reflexión, no en Dogmas" Beatnik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulisdead Posted November 17, 2003 Author Share Posted November 17, 2003 Hi, Sorry for the VERY late reply. I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their responses. You've given me plenty of info to experement with. Just another question on the same topic: on the Who's first album 'My Generation', how did Shel Talmy get that "biscuit tin" drum sound? Also with the White Stripes new album 'Elephant', did they use the same kinds of 60's methods in recording Meg White's drums to 8 track? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alba359 Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Hey MARS, How were Ringo's mikes set up for the session you worked on with him? What kind of mics and drums did he use? Thanks, Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Originally posted by remainanon: While we're keeping each other honest let's correct that statement, shall we? On several tracks recorded in 1968 the drummer was a fellow named Paul McCartney. Well you're right of course. I think I'd been going to mention that in my post too, but forgot. Thanks for gettin my back. And thanks for all the other great info, too! I totally agree with your point about having years to get it right... nowadays, do we ever get years to get ANYthing right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Originally posted by paulisdead: Just another question on the same topic: on the Who's first album 'My Generation', how did Shel Talmy get that "biscuit tin" drum sound?Probably by sticking a couple of mics in front of Keith Moon who had a drum kit that sounded like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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