Question for you great drummers

[TerryDaBass]

Hi guys I'm a semi-pro bass players that plays gigs in metalbands and audition city bands. My question is how do you guys play the double kick drum so fast? I'm trying to teach my younger brother how to play. Me being a bassist its a little harder, my cordanation is good but when it comes to the feet stuff I can do double kick fills but not the machine gun rolls like Paul B from Slayer does. Can you guys explain this concept for me. You comments and suggestions are MOST WELCOME

[k1neta]

Practice, practice and practice

 

Get the coordination in place, then spend countless hours adding speed without loosing coordination It is not something accomplished in a week.

 

I still don't think I'm very good at it.

But it's ok having the opportunity to add some double patterns here and there when necessary

[felix stein]

Fast double bass to me is more muscle memory than anything else. And it's an exclusive club reserved for drummers only.

 

There are no back doors, sorry.

[TerryDaBass]

I see, well watching Pantera drummer with my bro he wanted to take up drums. He has a set right now with double bass. Sorry felix didn't know it was reserved from drummers only.

[k1neta]

Hard work is the only thing that will work on developing those "skills". I wouldn't advise anyone who hasn't played drums some time to start off with double kick patterns right away. "Limb indepence" is the key That requires a lot of practice.

[felix stein]

It's okay to be inspired to play like that but to learn over the internet how to play like that in a week, year, whatever is something that most drummers- who devote their lives to playing, practicing (and not practicing other instruments they might love I might add) paying great teachers, and sweating bullets might never even be attained after a lifetime of devoted study.

 

There are no back doors to the great drummers club. Didn't mean to piss you off, but I'm not going to ask you how to become a great slap bass player overnight.

 

Go to the Tim Waterson home page and get the dude started on his 16/32 foot exercises/double kick patterns if he's still ate up with being a speed metal player. Tim, I'm sure, could use the money.

[larrytkennedyexcite.com]

Ditto to all the advice given so far - plus a suggestion.

 

Speed is always derived from being relaxed. Short bursts of speed can be produced by tensing up the legs, ankles, etc. but sustained speed has to result from relaxed muscles which "remember" what they are supposed to be doing.

 

Here are some suggestions not offered by the other guys :

 

1) Use a rudimental approach - the way that drummers learn to play rolls is to start out slowly, then to slowly increase speed 'til you reach the point you can no longer control (in this case) the pedals, and then slow back down slowly.

Here are some excercises he can use to practice in this fashion :

LRLRL RLRLR LRLRL RLRLR LRLRL RLRLR ect

LLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRR ect

LLLRRRLLLRRRLLLRRRLLLRRRLLLRRR ect

LLLLRRRRLLLLRRRRLLLLRRRRLLLLRRRR ect

 

2) If he already has a double pedal, and is already playing with your band, have him "drop" the top HH cymbal and play his bass drum patterns with his left foot. This will start to "break the patterns" that he has learned by playing BD with his right foot, and will begin to build up speed, control, and endurance with his left foot.

 

3) I highly recommend that your brother develop the ability to play HiHat with his left hand. Doing so will allow him to uncross his arms and to have much better balance on the throne. This will equalize the pressure and weight placed on both his pedals and should allow him to play faster, smoother, and longer than would be the case "crossed over".

 

Pass these ideas on to your brother, and feel free to e-mail me if you or he have more questions. I'm no expert (I started way too late, and my band doesn't really play any songs which I'd use double pedals on, so I'm not fast but I did develop a decent bit of facility).

Also, needless to say, all of the above assumes that your brother plays right-handed on a conventional right-handed kit. Adjust my advice as needed, if this isn't the case.

[Steve LeBlanc]

who devote their lives to playing, practicing (and not practicing other instruments they might love I might add)

 

Damn Felix...I suddenly feel unwelcome here

 

You're right though...if a kid wants some tips on how to play he has to show me some stuff first...I mean some real commitment to the music and an understanding of the discipline involved.

 

I haven't been much help in the past to DerekDrums (well maybe, but not from a drummers POV) but if I ever can be I'm totally willing because it's more than clear having heard his music that he works at learning the drums.

 

Now here's the only advice my brother gave me:

 

First thing's first when learning Double Bass...develop your left foot, do that, relax, experiment and voila.

 

I'm actually starting to get good at it...I won't post any more examples of me playing drums until I can blow Felix away. haha

[djarrett]

Oh, Come on Steve, ... you know Felix is all heart when it really comes down to it.

He likes wearing his feelings on his sleeve, but those of us that have been here a while know he is a softy!

 

I know this is going to ruffle some feathers, but I have also found in my questioning countless drummers ... that the better double bass drummers also have some natural gravitation to being able to better execute the coordination of the art.

I know this is true of many aspects of being a musician, but I have found that with double bass, ... the more naturally inclined ... the more often it is mastered and used in live performance.

 

Thoughts ... debates?

 

DJ

[Steve LeBlanc]

that the better double bass drummers also have some natural gravitation to being able to better execute the coordination of the art.

 

Yeah, I think it's a combination of what the drummer listens to regularly (as a musician I learn the most from listening to CDs or going to shows), how good their natural memory skills are and how naturally they are balanced (left and right).

 

This is probably true with any musical skill...and we all have strengths and weaknesses on different skills (except for Felix who easily mastered every skill imaginable and should be our constant inspiration ).

 

My brother, for example, has been somewhat ambidextrous his whole life...when he was a kid he'd eat and sometimes draw with his left hand yet he's mostly right-handed. I think this is part of the reason he took to doublebass so naturally...not to say he didn't work at it but he had 'the knack' right away. Another big part is he listens to music A LOT...all different styles and really internalizes every drummer he hears.

 

Can you learn all this stuff without natural ability? I think so because I've seen some drummers rip doublebass really fast and even but there was something missing, that feeling you get when you hear a drummer that obviously took to it right away.

 

Well, that was a long answer without offering much...just some thoughts...

[felix stein]

Pretty funny Stevie...touche'

 

I don't know how I feel about being more balanced playing with my left hand on my high hat...and if that is indeed a better way to play high hat- for me, it's not.

 

And aside from opening up for simple eighth note rock groove-I play the hat with the dominant limb. I would much rather spend time working on a more complicated pattern with my right side leading than working on being ambidextrious on shit I've learned ten years ago. I just don't have the time or perhaps talent. But I really think time and will. I am impressed by drummers that do this well, but I find this subtly impressive and usually find them lacking in more complicated or interesting fills. By all means the left side needs to be worked hard, but I also like a system for about 85% of my playing...leaving 15% to get unglued. I been profoundly impressed by Dennis Chambers left handed acrobatics but I have also been disappointed with some of his stuff as well....I believe it's a give and take.

[ModernDrummer]

TerryDaBass-

 

Well, I have to agree with the other guys here that developing speed is something that takes time and concerted effort. And as the other folks mentioned here, I really don't know any shortcuts for it.

 

Larry Kennedy made an excellent observation in that playing in a relaxed manner greatly assists speed. At least, for any duration of time. As Larry mentioned, a few second blast of speed can be accomplished by tensing of the muscles. But this gets tiring in just a few seconds. By the same token, sometimes that's all you might need. Many songs and parts of songs use double bass riffs for short patterns, fills, breaks, song endings, etc. So this MIGHT work IF that's all that one is typically going to use double bass for.

 

But for extended double bass work at speed, relaxation is the key.

 

Another suggestion to that end is to have your brother start exercising those muscles, in addition to whatever double bass regimen he may instigate. Jogging, bicycling, treadmills, stationary bike, etc. all help build up the necessary muscles, and help build endurance to boot.

 

Starting slowly, even VERY slowly, I think not only develops the necessary 'muscle memory' as Felix noted and Larry expounded upon, but also helps develop the timing and rhythm AND the discipline needed to develop ALL those things. Almost any musician that's watched a newbie drummer jump behind a kit might agree that one of the first things almost EVERY newbie does is try and rip off some blazing riff or pattern with the feet or hands. I've seen this happen quite often at drum shops, etc. And, to be honest, it's usually pretty comical to watch. At least for me it is, I suppose because I remember myself doing it!

 

Another thing practicing slowly does is help teach smoothness. Which personally I think is more important than sheer speed, anyway. IMHO, I'd much prefer to hear, and personally am more impressed by, a drummer that plays very smooth and interesting bass (or hand, for that matter) patterns and riffs than one that's simply trying to blast out 128th notes as hard as they can.

 

Also, as DJarrett alluded to, natural ability and 'knack' also comes into play. Afterall, EVERY drummer has his or her personal limit as to what they're physically capable of doing. It's possible that I, Felix, Larry or your brother will NEVER be as fast as Vinnie Paul on the double bass. On the other hand, there's probably some things that Felix or Larry do exceptionally well on the kit that Vinnie would have a tough time duplicating. This also goes along with K1neta's observation on limb independence. While everyone can likely improve in this area through practice, some will just pick it up faster, or better, or just have a natural aptitude for it greater than some others. Human nature.

 

And lastly as a suggestion, once your brother has incorporated these other excellent suggestions made by the other members here, he may wish to try practicing bass work with ONLY his left foot. This helps to develop the muscles in the left leg more (since it's typically the right foot that does most of the bass work, for righty drummers), and again, helps develop limb independence. Then expand on that and at the next rehearsal, playing everything with the left foot. The rehearsal after, everything with the right foot. Well, when not doing double bass work.

 

Hope this also helps a bit. Good luck.

 

J.B.