banga Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 After reading through everyone's comments on Carter B, it struck me that the issue of overplaying is very complicated. I agree that sometimes Carter blatantly overplays, but in general I think that he brings drumming to the front of a mainstream band, and plays the drums as a musical instrument, not a metronome. Danny Carey(TOOL) was also mentioned as guilty of this offence, but I see the way he plays drums in tool's music as integral to their effect, and again, he plays the drums like a musical instrument, not a metronome. In this period of drum machines, drummers have to show some individuality and skill, in order to separate them from machines. However, I am mainly interested in what fellow drummers consider to be overplaying, because I feel that often there is a lot of hypocrisy in people's opinions. confused banga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekDrums Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 I agree 100%. I think the whole "overplaying" thing is crap. It's not overplaying, it's playing the drums as a musical instrument, not as just something to keep time. People too many times think that anything outside of basic drumming is horrible, and that it ruins the music. I don't see how anyone could think that. Carter's drums in particular makes DMB sound a lot better, because it keeps things interesting, and that's what it's about. If you stay so repetitive, things can get REALLY boring. Carter, Danny, and many other of the greatest drummers out there can keep the music VERY interesting through "overplaying" as simple playing drummers call it. Now, not to say that simple playing is bad, because that's what fits a lot of music, mainly mainstream music. But moving outside of simple playing is great, because then you don't limit yourself to the same thing, and you can play the drums as an actual music instrument. It's not overplaying, it's just something that guys who big fans of playing the basics and keeping things as simple as possible aren't used to. Derek http://www.mp3.com/DustinDerek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernDrummer Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 Hmmm, I think this has always been a touchy, sensitive or controversial subject to most drummers. Especially since there's no REAL definition of "overplaying". And how come almost EVERY drummer that say's "THAT guy's overplaying" NEVER admits he overplays? LOL! I've heard the definition of overplaying, from some of the more, I suppose, cynical or conservative types ("HE always over plays, I NEVER overplay") come out as something like "trying to play something at every break, fill, etc." This is usually followed by some comment to the effect that "It's the space between notes that counts". Something like that. Not EVERYONE who has the 'space between notes' point of view is cynical, just some I've met. And how come they also always seem mad about the other guy 'overplaying', by THEIR definition? Well, fact is, no matter HOW much you think someone overplays, or they think you overplay, there is STILL the 'space between notes'. It's an intangible concept. If there were NOT space between notes, from ANY instrument, that instrument would simply produce a continuous tone. So, even if you play 1100 bpm on your bass drum pedals for the whole song, there MUST, by definition, be 'space between the notes'. However, I think the more 'standard' definition is a guy that simply plays a lot of fills, patterns, etc. on a song. My question then becomes, "But what if that FITS the song?" What if the song is MORE musical (to the particular listener OR it's creator) than less? IMHO, if it FITS, no matter HOW complicated, it's NOT overplaying. So in my definition, overplaying is simply when you're trying to place something, somewhere, in the song that doesn't fit. Just my thoughts. If you always do what you've always done, you'll always have what you've always had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 However, I think the more 'standard' definition is a guy that simply plays a lot of fills, patterns, etc. on a song. My question then becomes, "But what if that FITS the song?" What if the song is MORE musical (to the particular listener OR it's creator) than less? IMHO, if it FITS, no matter HOW complicated, it's NOT overplaying. Yep, I agree with that and just everything Derek and banga were saying too. I'd also like to broaden it even more...sometimes the motivation of a musician is to have fun...this often translates to the audience/listener also having fun. While it may be extreme in some cases...there should be room for every approach in this vast world of music. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I love busy drummers...but I also love guys who just find the pocket and never let it stray. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 Well, I think there is a true dividing line with regards to overplaying. In my estimation, overplaying occurs when one player "steps on" the playing of others. Overplaying is distasteful. Overplaying is rude. I do not think that in the case of Carter, that there is actually overplaying taking place, because ... that is the style of the music and the group has always, and continues to allow him the room for the amount of playing that is taking place. For Carter ... it is the style of the band. A stong tendency towards drums. If he was actually "over playing", ... he would be walking all over the parts of others. Just my thoughts. DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 Originally posted by djarrett: Well, I think there is a true dividing line with regards to overplaying. In my estimation, overplaying occurs when one player "steps on" the playing of others. I think you're absolutely right, DJ, and therefore whether one is "overplaying" is going to depend entirely on who you're playing with and whether there is space in the music for a lot of drumming. I agree that Carter doesn't actually "overplay" within the context of DMB... I think DM realizes that his music would be totally boring if it wasn't for Carter... 'course I still think it's boring anyway except for Carter... LOL. Some songwriters and arrangers just don't want to hear a lot of drums. They want the vocal front and center and that's what's important to them. I personally am not into that, I want to hear lots of drums and most of my songs reflect that. So a drummer that plays with me has quite a lot of opportunity to "show off" without "overplaying", so long as he is cognizant of the song and where it's going. Also a lot of drummers don't work enough on playing the SUBTLE things in a song - stuff that the singer is not necessarily going to notice but that definitely adds richness and variation to the song and enhances the vocal without being necessarily "flashy". Subtle hi-hat technique, adding a few kick accents here and there, that sort of thing. There are a lot of drummers who think they should just "keep time" and do the exact same thing the whole time the singing is going on, and just wait around for the breaks or fills where they "really" get to play. This annoys me, kind of like guitar players who sit there and strum chords looking extremely bored through most of the song, just waiting around for their solo to come up. I think there are ways to make the playing experience more rewarding for everyone than that! There are probably a lot of singers and songwriters whose songs would sound cooler if there were more drums IMO, but a lot of them don't realize that or are scared of it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaddabout Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 Originally posted by Lee Flier: Also a lot of drummers don't work enough on playing the SUBTLE things in a song - stuff that the singer is not necessarily going to notice but that definitely adds richness and variation to the song and enhances the vocal without being necessarily "flashy". --Lee I've been playing with my brother lately with his own tunes, and I don't think he strums a single chord. He plays these complicated finger-plucked things on his acoustic. All I can do is play subtle! On one hand, I like how I've been stretched as a drummer. On the other hand, I always have the momentary urge to join a caveman band after we're done. We've been auditioning bass guitarists, and I'm looking for someone who really nails the low end, so I don't feel like I have to play touchy-feely cymbal stuff all the time. argh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 BAM...BAM-BAM felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 LOL... well yeah I agree, it's a bore if that's ALL you do is play subtle! I'm just saying it's great if you can be a caveman OR subtle depending on the situation. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted October 16, 2001 Share Posted October 16, 2001 Hey, Felix: Your in the wrong forum ... you're looking for the Flintstone forum! DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidereal Posted October 16, 2001 Share Posted October 16, 2001 couple thoughts... First, DMB is a JAM BAND, people. A jam band. Jam bands... well, jam. Carter is the perfect drummer for this band, unless they continue their trend of making lame, sugary tofu like that last CD. Second, there seems to be a sentiment that it's okay to play busy if it fits the song. True. But I prefer to approach songs from a different perspective. That if something DOES NOT fit the song, then DON'T PLAY IT. If you think about it, there's a difference in mindset, in that with the first, it's like you're granting yourself permission to find an opportunity to play busy. That's the wrong way to think of it in my opinion. Better to think of it in the sense that, when in doubt, show restraint and let the SONG carry itself, not the NOTES you play. -Zen mastah, sidereal http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R_Ar Posted October 18, 2001 Share Posted October 18, 2001 I think overplaying is subject to opinion. As banga said, some people criticise Danny Carey for his fantasic drumming because they think he plays too much. If you asked Danny or any of the millions of TOOL fans around the globe i'm sure you would get a much different answer. I personally think that if it fits the song, why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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