tomaerovons.com Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 I'm wondering if any of you might shed some light on something I notice a lot on recordings...even going WAY back to early Beatle records. Many times when a drummer is rocking away on the ride cymbal, in the recording itself, you don't hear the individual strikes on the cymbal from the stick...you just hear this wonderful wash. I was noticing it tonight on Jars of Clay's "Crazy Times" during the chorus sections. Of course, when I try to duplicate this with even a great cymbal sample, it's no good, because they miked the sample so close that all you hear is each individual tap of the stick. I'm wondering if you guys do anything special to get that "wash " going yourselves, or whether it's just an auditory effect of the engineer perhaps using more of the room mikes than the overheads that allows us to avoid hearing the taps. Thanks for any input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckafrummer Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 when ever i record i have a mic about 2 feet above my ride and one of my crash cymbals. this seems to work for me and get a nice "wash" sound out of it. just play around with it a bit and im sure that youll find something that works for you. im not a pro at recording maybe one of the more experenced guys here can help you. -duckafrummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 Hey Tom: I too am a great Jars of Clay fan!! Any thing you listen to today cannot relect the real sound of a cymbal. Early recordings were not compressed and processed. Especially on sampled sounds. Many of these have been compressed themselves! You may try running the sampled cymbal through a unit that allows you to add reverb or hall size enhancements to the sound. You may be able to replicate the sound that way? Hope this helps. DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernDrummer Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 Tom, O.K. this got me thinking. Especially since I personally like to hear the individual stick hits on my stuff. It's why I specifically bought the ride cymbal I currently use. Just BECAUSE of it's stick definition. To be honest, I never really gave any thought to the fact that Tom Hartman or someone else may WANT just the wash, and not the definition. Well, DUH, J.B.! So you've got me to thinkin'. Hey, ThanX A Million! I LOVE new ideas to try out. Please keep in mind that people like djarret, bartman, ian* et. al. probably have a ton more experience than I regarding stuff like this. But I read this post and began thinking how, on my drumkit, I might replicate the sound you're seeking, if my band asked me to do so? How might I reproduce it without having to get into some sound engineering legerdemain? 'Cause what if I wanted to reproduce it at a small club, where ya might not have $190,394,827,653 worth of sound equipment, LOL. Please also keep in mind that I have NOT tried this (yet) myself, as I've just read your post. So the ideas are just possibilites. But ya gotta start somewhere, right? Some things I'd look for and things I'd try if I were wanting to recreate that sound. Can't really try muffling the cymbal, IMHO, 'cause you'd be eliminating the wash and overtones, and probably end up just accenting the stick. So maybe some of these might work? When my ride cymbal is mic'd, it's always right there on top, within a couple inches of the surface, maybe halfway between bell and edge. So yes, first thing I'd try is backing the mic off a bit. How much? I can't tell you. Mine sits on a boom stand, so I guess I'd just play with it to see if I could reduce the pinging effect. Up, more toward the edge, etc. Perhaps even move it underneath, to the side opposite the drummer (opposite of where the drumming is striking). I'd look at some stick options. First off, I think obviously, I'd completely eliminate nylon tipped, synthetics, and the ilk from possibilities. They only enhance stick definition, in my mind. And I'd stay away from the top dollar, big buck, guaranteed durable forever wood sticks as well. the stuff made from African Ironwood, Zebrawood, Bubinga, Oak, Hickory, etc. The more expensive sticks are typically made out of great, durable wood. Which means HARD. Which means additional pinging characteristics. I'd try some cheap sticks as they're normally made from a less expensive (LOL, CHEAP) wood. Which is usually softer because they're cheap, LOL. Musician's Friend has some $.99 a PAIR 5B's that may be suitable. If they're made out of pine, PERFECT! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif A while back, I think it was from Interstate Music, I picked up some of these little black rubber (plastic?) practice tips that slip over the tip of your drumstick. I believe they're made by Tama. Supposedly, so you can practice your rudiments on that $3,000 coffee table your lady just bought. Yeah, like THAT wouldn't get YOU pinged in the forehead with the butt end of that 5B! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif (Uh, guess how I know THAT?) Anyhoo, since they're a softer type of rubber, they may be perfect for deadening that ping effect. And they're pretty inexpensive, like $5 or something. Or, possibly try a felt beater / mallet. Something with a real small head. Like a xylophone mallet, perhaps? Some of them are only about the diameter of a dime or nickel, so it would at least have some feeling of a drumstick. Of course, you could use a larger felt head as well, but the larger head may interefere with the sounds coming from the rest of the kit, which you may not want. Then, you could use the little felt end for riding, and always flip the stick and use butt end if need be for the hi-hat ride, snare work, etc. If it were practical and feasible, and I wasn't tight on dollars (LOL, I'm ALWAYS tight on dollars!) http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I'd definitely use something other than my current ride. I have a Zildjian 22" Ping Ride, brilliant finish. And man, does it PING! Obviously, I love the other aspects of it as well (wash, overtone, etc.), but one of the reasons I specifically wanted the cymbal was FOR it's stick definition. So, I'd try something else. Maybe borrow one if I could. If it was for a studio, it just becomes part of the studio inventory. I'd be thinking something large, IMHO. At least a 22", maybe 24". The larger size gives them a lower tone overall, which might help soften the attack to some extent. Smaller cymbals usally have more of an attack. Sharper. Just the opposite of what we want here. Perhaps something without a bell? A flat ride? Or maybe a small bell ride? We're not looking for stick and 'tah' sounds, so I think I'd stay away from 'dry' ride stuff. How about a 24" 'dark' ride of some sort? Again, I'm just kicking out some ideas I'd try. Of course, I'd start with the least expensive thing ('Cause I'm always TIGHT with my dollars, LOL!), and work around from there. I'm sure someone here on the forum may have some better suggestions. But hopefully, these ideas might get you started. Or at least, give thought to some other ideas of your own. Hope this helps a bit. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif J.B. This message has been edited by ModernDrummer on 07-24-2001 at 08:02 AM If you always do what you've always done, you'll always have what you've always had. 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tomaerovons.com Posted July 24, 2001 Author Share Posted July 24, 2001 Originally posted by ModernDrummer: Tom, O.K. this got me thinking. Especially since I personally like to hear the individual stick hits on my stuff. It's why I specifically bought the ride cymbal I currently use. Just BECAUSE of it's stick definition. (SNIP) This message has been edited by ModernDrummer on 07-24-2001 at 08:02 AM Thanks JB, and everyone else. Those are good ideas. I really think this is a phenomenon of the recording studio. It probably is a combination of what the drummer is doing and the engineer. Another time that you hear this is on half-open hi-hats. Ringo, of The Beatles, was famous for this. Many times on record you'd think he was using a ride when in fact, it was a half open hat, and again, you couldn't hear the individual hits. One of the most famous examples of this is on their early hit "She Loves You." After the opening "She Loves You , Yeah, Yeah Yeah" chorus, when they go into the verse ("to think you've lost your love..." a huge wash begins that most assumed was a large cymbal. But in all live concerts he played half open hi hat on this, and that's another way, I suppose to approach getting this sound. I'll keep experimenting. Thanks again for so many good tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 Tom, I too am a huge fan of that big cymbal "wash" (on the right songs, of course). The drummer in our band does it a lot. There's no big secret to it, engineering-wise - it all has to do with the drummer and the cymbals. And no, you can't duplicate it with samples either, unless maybe you sample somebody doing it right. Most ride cymbals these days are not meant to do that kind of thing - they are heavier and made for more definition. The "crash ride" cymbals that the old school drummers use are thinner, and the tone varies a lot depending on where you hit it. If you play them close to the bell the hits have more definition. The further away from the bell you move the more it starts to sound like a crash. Also if you hit the edge of the cymbal with the shoulder of the stick, instead of the tip, you will get more of a wash. Same thing goes for hi hats. If you open the hats halfway and play on the edge with the shoulder of the stick, the hits become very indistinct. In either case too, you can't be beating the crap out of the cymbal - if you hit too hard the contrast between the impact and the resonance will be too much, if you follow me. So a lot of it has to do with technique. In the 60's most rock drummers had come out of a traditional jazz background and they all seemed to have that sort of feel with the cymbals. Nowadays it's pretty rare to hear somebody do that. Our drummer is from New Orleans and is steeped in old jazz, but he loves Ringo and Keith Moon, so that kind of feel is pretty much like falling off a log for him. I can throw any old mics on him and no processing whatsoever and he still sounds like that whenever he wants. Yes, the type of reverberation and such contributed a lot to the sound of those old records, but there is really no way that processing will do what you're looking for if the drummer isn't using the right technique and the right cymbals. One trick I have used though, if the drummer doesn't have the right kind of ride cymbal, is to ride on a good sounding crash cymbal. Again, with the shoulder of the stick, on the edge. --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 07-24-2001 at 12:05 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 I personally use different Ride cymbals for different sounds. Typically not trying to get the sound via EQ or compression. For a tight, dry sound with lots of stick definition, I use my SABIAN 20 inch Leopard Ride. There are NO tone grooves (not lathed), so there is basically no "wash". For the biggest "wash" possible, I use my SABIAN 20 inch HH Medium Ride. It used to be a 22 inch cymbal, but I had my buddy at Wilson Customs reduce the cymbal down for me (don't try this at home). The 22 inch version was TOO MUCH ... and I just couldn't use it like I thought. Rather than get rid of the cymbal, I turned it into a nice 20 inch Ride; lot's of "wash" without too much "roar". Incidentally, this Ride is pictured in the GRETSCH photo I posted in the Drum Shell thread. The room, mic placement, stick choice, etc., all play a part in the overall sound of the cymbal. My perference is to try and find a cymbal that has the sound I want ... naturally, before I start fooling around with EQ, effects and compression. ------------------ Bart Elliott http://bartelliott.com Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 OK, in case anybody doesn't believe me that it's all in the technique... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ... I have a perfect example for ya. Go here: http://www.hitshack.com/lee/ And download the song "Shot Down". This is our drummer. I recorded him live in a small club where the room is quite dead, there are no true overhead mics, no compression, very little reverb added. You can clearly hear this throughout most of the tune - that is, you can hear the individual stick hits on the ride and hats (although you can tell that it's an old-style jazz ride that resonates more than your average rock ride these days). However, he starts to "wash out" during the guitar solo, and by the time he gets to the second bridge after the solo, he totally goes into the "wash" thing. So there you have it, all in the same song. I wish there were a better example from these recordings of the same technique on the hi-hat - the Ringo thing. "Outside Chance" comes pretty darned close though. --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 07-24-2001 at 12:33 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 I believe technique plays into it ... but it's not ALL technique. Perhaps I'm missing your point Lee ... sorry. Ringo used to play side to side on the Ride, sweeping back and forth (was on, wax off) rather than up and down. I use this techinque from time to time which seems to produce more "wash" and less stick attack. It's cool. ------------------ Bart Elliott http://bartelliott.com Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomaerovons.com Posted July 24, 2001 Author Share Posted July 24, 2001 Originally posted by Lee Flier: OK, in case anybody doesn't believe me that it's all in the technique... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ... I have a perfect example for ya. Go here: http://www.hitshack.com/lee/ This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 07-24-2001 at 12:33 PM Wow, Lee, that's exactly the sound, you're right on, especially during the bridge after the solo. Fantastic! Is this the same cymbal that you can hear the individual taps on earlier in the song? If so, that is unreal. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomaerovons.com Posted July 24, 2001 Author Share Posted July 24, 2001 Originally posted by Bartman: I believe technique plays into it ... but it's not ALL technique. Perhaps I'm missing your point Lee ... sorry. Ringo used to play side to side on the Ride, sweeping back and forth (was on, wax off) rather than up and down. I use this techinque from time to time which seems to produce more "wash" and less stick attack. It's cool. Bart, I've gotta tell you, after hearing "Shot Down," I have no choice rather than to believe that it is pretty much all technique. I wouldn't have believed it until I heard this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 Originally posted by tomhartman@adelphia.net: Wow, Lee, that's exactly the sound, you're right on, especially during the bridge after the solo. Fantastic! Is this the same cymbal that you can hear the individual taps on earlier in the song? If so, that is unreal. Thanks! Yes, it's the same cymbal. And of course, same sticks, etc. The nut behind the kit makes all the difference. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif If you listen carefully you can HEAR where he makes the switch in sticking technique and you can tell he's not using the tip at all and is not playing that hard with his right hand. But I still need to emphasize that this particular ride cymbal was designed to be a crash AND a ride. Most modern ride cymbals will not do as well, and if you're aiming for that sound you would probably do better to use a crash cymbal - preferably a thin one. Our drummer plays my kit during rehearsals and he usually goes to my Zildjian K 16" "Thin Dark Crash" for that effect, because my ride cymbal is more of a typical heavier one that won't really wash out. --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 07-24-2001 at 02:14 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernDrummer Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 Oooo, what a cheap and tacky way to get people to listen to your audio clip, Lee. I LOVE it! LMAO! Good song. Really has that 'old rock 'n' roll' feel to it. Aaa, for the days of the Ventures, Beach Boys, Beatles, eh? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Tom, just have Lee's drummer come over and do that for ya! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif But yeah, I'd have to say that it does sound like he's riding farther up the stick. But I also think that Bart is correct as well. That the cymbal he's using helps with that sound. A very shimmering ride without the ping, as I would describe it. Gee Tom, why didn't you SAY that's what you wanted? LOL! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif If you always do what you've always done, you'll always have what you've always had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 LOL MD... well hey, I knew nobody'd believe me if I didn't provide an audible example, considering I'm "only" a guitar player talking a bunch of crap about drums. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 I think it's very simply just in the cymbal and the way the drummer hits it. Sometimes it might not be a ride cymbal at all but a large crash played like a ride. I don't know which sound you're talking about exactly, not much of a Jars of Clay fan...but I imagine to recreate it with samples you'll have to dig deeper into the sample library. I had a great sample for that kind of thing on my Ensoniq EPS, but I made it myself. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 Oops, I should have read the rest of the thread before posting... Lee's audio example...oh, that sound...yeah what she said http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanajoycekscable.com Posted July 26, 2001 Share Posted July 26, 2001 i mainly have two rides i use (6 or seven i don't)- a 20" 'k', and a 20" 'a.zildjian & cie' repro vintage. the 'k' has killer stick definition- especially sweet when used with certain sticks (perter erskine 'ride' model, gary chaffee model). the 'a.zildjian & cie' on the other hand, is the complete opposite- using the same sticks (which are the best sounding ride sticks i've found), it's no stick, all wash- in a wonderful way, of course. i also have a 16" 'k constantinople' crash that's a wonderful ride as well- really cool for that 'excited ringo' type of chorus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted July 27, 2001 Share Posted July 27, 2001 So I'm talking to our drummer tonight and I tell him about this little exchange, and I ask him exactly what kind of ride he's got (I've looked, but other than it being a Zildjian 20" I have no idea, he's had it for years and the model has rubbed off). He says: "Uhhhh.... it's a Zildjian... uhhh... 20 inch I think." LF: "Yeah, I know. But which model exactly?" JD: "I don't remember. It just sounded good so that's what I got." LF: "Well I just wanted to confirm that it's the same one you use to do that cool wash thing like on 'Shot Down'." JD: "Oh - no, that's my other cymbal, actually [he only uses two in his kit besides the hats]. That one's a 16" Zildjian Rude Crash Ride." LF: "So you have TWO crash rides?" JD: "Yeah. [laughing] Well, I know that's kind of weird, but the drummer in the band Alabama gave me that Rude one for free." LF: "How in the world would YOU know the drummer from ALABAMA?" JD: "When I used to do stagehand work a long time ago, I worked a couple of their shows." So uh... there you have it. I guess. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 07-27-2001 at 12:15 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarf Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 Hey Lee, I love your audio samples - nice to hear someone doing Outside Chance, I've always loved that tune. But I have to question a statement that your drummer makes (I'm surprised that no one else has brought this up). "Oh - no, that's my other cymbal, actually [he only uses two in his kit besides the hats]. That one's a 16" Zildjian Rude Crash Ride." Did he say Zildjian Rude? I'm pretty sure that he meant to say Paiste Rude since they're the ones who made Rudes (and Mark Herndon endorsed Paiste). Enquiring minds wanna know :-) -- Rob I have the mind of a criminal genius.....I keep it in the freezer next to mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 Oops, you're right, Dwarf. And I don't think he said it was a Zildjian, either, he just said "Rude". My mistake, not his. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Thanks for pointing that out and glad ya liked the tunes! --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 07-29-2001 at 07:20 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsmusic Posted August 1, 2001 Share Posted August 1, 2001 Some jazz drummers use cymbal rivets to achieve a similar effect. Rob R. Guilford Butts www.mp3.com/robsmusic "Your talent is God's gift to you. What you do with it is your gift back to God"......Leo Buscaglia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaddabout Posted August 1, 2001 Share Posted August 1, 2001 Your mp3's have disappeared, Lee, so I can only guess what kind of "wash" you're looking for. I get a lot of etheral cymbal sounds striking a 20" K Custom Dark Ride with the flat part of the stick while splashing my hi-hats using my left foot. If I were trying to sample it, I would lightly strike the cymbal several times to get a ring going before hitting the record button. I would also definately sample it with the hi-hats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted August 1, 2001 Share Posted August 1, 2001 Hmm, Gaddabout, the mp3's still load just fine for me, don't know what you mean about them disappearing. Yeah that sound is great with hi hats too. Our drummer was doing the Ringo thing last night at practice with my 15" New Beats. It was too cool! I think Tom is working on getting some hi hats. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaddabout Posted August 1, 2001 Share Posted August 1, 2001 I click on the mp3 titles and get a "document contains no data" error message. Tried it on three different computers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 Gaddabout, would you try one more time? I think the file names weren't compatible with some systems and hopefully it's fixed now. Thanks, Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaddabout Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 Yep, they work now! Listened to the song you mentioned. If that's the sound tom was looking for, you definately described how to do it. Grunge 101: play hats (partially open) and ride with the flat of the stick, with great ferocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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