frozen_dup1 Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 Are they any rudiments for the kick. The reason I ask is I always find my kick very mechanical in timing. Some times it sounds like these guys have a grace note on the kick, is that a double bass pedal technique? I like the fluidity of a lot of the newer bands ( rock ). Is that just practicing off time hits or is there some sort of rudimental practice involved? I'm not a veteran drummer or anything so that also might be a problem... Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernDrummer Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 Well, you can practice the exact same rudiments on the double bass that you do on the snare, or with your hands I guess I should say. It may be more difficult for you to do them with your feet, but there's no reason you can't. And if you're like many drummers, rudiments with your hands were also somewhat difficult when you first started on them. Takes time and effort. There's lots of superb drummers out there with some great chops on the double bass, whether double pedal or two drums. But also keep in mind that it's not NECESSARY to have complicated bass drum chops down to become reknown as a great drummer. Steve Smith (Journey, Vital Information, Steps Ahead), considered one of the best drummers of the day, stated himself that he never uses anything other than simple bass riffs. Quarter, Eighth and Sixteenth notes on his double bass, nothing more. But if you'd like to invest the time and effort to work out some patterns etc., just use the standard rudiments. I'd suggest starting with something relatively simple, like triplets. Start slowly, so your feet get the 'feel' of the pattern. Speed will pick up naturally. Then you might want to try something more advanced, like say paradiddles. Again starting slowly. Then possibly move on to foot hand coordination. Once again, perhaps start with something like 'RH (right hand) LH RF (right foot) LF', etc. Then move to additional patterns from there. Stuff like paradiddles with your RH LF, then RH RF. So you're working the various combinations of hand and foot patterns. Just some ideas. J.B. If you always do what you've always done, you'll always have what you've always had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 Whatever you do with your hands ... do with your feet. Using George Stone's STICK CONTROL, Mitchell Peter's DEVELOPING DEXTERITY are both great books to work out of with hands, feet or both. If you don't own any of these books, I highly recommend them; they are (in my opinion) the Bible for Drummers. In the mean time, I've got some hand/foot exercises on my web site if you are interested. I also encourage you to play these foot exercises and patterns with your left foot not only on the double kick pedal, but the hihat pedal and Gajate pedal if you have one. I've got two that I use for various things such as cowbells, wood blocks, tambourines, etc. Good Luck! ------------------ Bart Elliott http://bartelliott.com Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidereal Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 If you can find it.... check out Terry Bozzio's first video that he put out in the late 80s, early 90s. He goes pretty deep into double bass practicing. Sort of what MD touched on above, his practice method involves doing a roll with the hands and copy that exactly with the feet. He goes through several different rolls (and even throws in some flams!) Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen_dup1 Posted July 23, 2001 Author Share Posted July 23, 2001 Thanks guys, I'll try to look for those vid's and books to help. Bartman, I went to your website, shit you have a lot of stuff and experience. Thanks again. JB. I'm not trying to avoid a simple bass line but I would like to be able to do both when needed. Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted July 23, 2001 Share Posted July 23, 2001 I'm psyched! It is funny someone posted this thread. I finally -after almost 20 short years of playing -was doing long rolls and 6 strokes with my feet yesterday. I am very happy...unfortunately my gear is showing some limitations. felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 23, 2001 Share Posted July 23, 2001 You want a real challenge ... try breaking a rudiment between your hand and foot!!! Talk about developing independence and dexterity! Take a paradiddle for instance and break it up so that you play the R hits with your hand and the L hits with your foot. You will be surprised at the coordination involved. DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted July 23, 2001 Share Posted July 23, 2001 Uh, I'm challenged enough...but I can well imagine...I did a lot of studying on the paradiddle and it's inversions broken between the high hat and snare with interspersed kick patterns...now if I could incorporate that concept with yours dj...talk about the dog's dinner! felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernDrummer Posted July 23, 2001 Share Posted July 23, 2001 LOL felix. Know what ya mean. My BIGGEST challenge is that I decided to play drums in the first !*@%&$O#! place! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif The ultimate, IMHO, is to have complete limb independence. Sorry, I'm not quite to this level, though I do work on it. But I have seen it done at a clinic. Four limbs, four time signatures. Amazing to watch. To be honest, not a lot of practical value in playing a different time signature / rhythm with each limb, from a musical standpoint. But the great asset in being able to do so is the freedom it allows you to do whatever you want. To just open up your mind completely to creative freedom, and have the independence and dexterity to play whatever you can conceive. To me, THAT'S the importance of working on limb independence. J.B. If you always do what you've always done, you'll always have what you've always had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted July 23, 2001 Share Posted July 23, 2001 I have said this before and I will say this again. The more far out I play-the "worse" I can potentially sound to untrained ears. Think about it. So I try to make the hard fills look easy and the easy ones look hard. But I don't care! I'm an ego maniac! felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 Take a paradiddle for instance and break it up so that you play the R hits with your hand and the L hits with your foot. I used to do this a lot...and still do a little of it as a warm-up before jamming...using ANY rudiments, even single/double stroke rolls between foot and hand really improved my overall playing. I've only been playing Double Bass for about a year and have gotten pretty good at it for someone who never practices...my only words of wisdom from experience is: Don't always start Double Bass grooves on the same foot...depending on what kind of beat you're playing starting with (and accenting) the Left or Right foot is often a totally different feel. For kick ass drummers who get tons of practice my advice might be mute, if your chops are REALLY up to snuff Left/Right probably doesn't matter http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 07-23-2001 at 05:40 PM http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 Originally posted by felix stein: Felix wrote: "But I don't care! I'm an ego maniac!" In some strange way ... aren't we all? Even if we try hard not to be! I think this is why they call it a "drum throne"!!! DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drumcanman Posted July 25, 2001 Share Posted July 25, 2001 Frozen you can do almost anything your hands can do with your feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted July 25, 2001 Share Posted July 25, 2001 LOL, I'll leave that one alone! felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drumcanman Posted July 25, 2001 Share Posted July 25, 2001 frozen Ther are 40 p.a.s. rudiments and i would encourage you to at least try as many as you can. the rudiments for drumming are like scales for other musicians.everything we play on the drums is based on one rudiment or another. Mike manginni is taking paradiddles to a new level and Marco Minnemann uses ratamacues in his his playing. rudiments define the type of feel you want and allow you to express yourself musically on the drumset. Try separating a swiss triplet between your right foot and left hand while your right hand plays swing time. i love to use swiss tripletsfor soloing or to beef up a shuffle feel at the end of a song. I am currently working on march type rhythm's with my feet and they add a new musical dimension to my playing and the musicians I work with really like them. the sky is the limit so best of luck to you Tim Waterson a.k.a. the drumcanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen_dup1 Posted July 29, 2001 Author Share Posted July 29, 2001 I'm starting to practice with the rudiments on the kick. So far, it's going slow. I've got some rudiments that I downloaded. Is there any rudimdents that I should be concentrating on for rock and heavy rock? Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted July 29, 2001 Share Posted July 29, 2001 I would think more than the Standard Rudiments for the double kick drum senario ... you would be better served working on sticking patterns. For instance, pick up a copy of George Stone's STICK CONTROL and be able to play out of the entire book with just your feet. Not only should you own this book (it's the Bible for Drummers), but you will gain more USEFUL rhythms and ideas from it than you will from playing Ratamacues or Pataflaflas with your feet. If may be "fun" to play "all" the rudiments with your feet, but you will probably find few times where they feet musically. I'm not saying that you can't use them! All of the diddle rudiments are going to be very useful. I'm saying that you will get more mileage out of the Stick Control book when it comes to foot exercises. The diddle rudiments are what I can "varied sticking" rudiments; all of which are found in Stone's Stick Control book. Many times I will play and ostinato with my hands while playing sticking exercises out of the Stick Control book (and others). Try playing the patterns without using the double kick pedal or double bass. Just play them with your left on the hihat and right foot on the kick drum. Talk about some cool and interesting grooves. Also check out Mitchell Peters book, DEVELOPING DEXTERITY; great book and another "bible for drummers". ------------------ Bart Elliott http://bartelliott.com Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 hey froze bro! Drumcanman and Bart are both correct. Stone's Stick Control is a must. At first you will think that this book is boring and repeatitive. This is exactly the importance of the book. Get it and stick to it (sorry for the play on words!) The Stick Control book will help you with your rudiment quest. They work real well together. Thanks, DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 For hard rock you don't want to start on rud's on the kick...sorry, but you are gonna have to be very strong with your technique to make doubles cut thru loud backlines. I would suggest checking out Kenny Arnoff's power workout and anything from Bobby Rondinelli (sp?). them happening and strong before executed in a hardrock scenario. Swiss Basically, get your singles happening within different note/over the bar groupings first. That is the hip way to play two bd pedals. I would keep practicing rud's with the feet but make damn sure you have trips and flam taps seem to cut nice on two kicks. felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen_dup1 Posted July 30, 2001 Author Share Posted July 30, 2001 I'm going to look for those books recommended today. Of course, then it will be practice, practice, practice. But with the rudiments I'm hoping to develop more interesting tracks when working on new songs. I've already noticed a big difference in the little time I have spent on rudiments on a practice pad. The kick's going a little slower.... Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 Kenny Aronoff's videos and books are great. In fact, it's all based on George Stone's STICK CONTROL ... the first 13 exercises! Great stuff and you WILL use it! Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 hiccups in digital land felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 Like I was saying: get your singles happening in groupings of 2's 3's 4's and I don't see why you couldn't do 5's 6's and 7's either. Be patient with the rud's on the feet...I was told that one needs to spend AT LEAST 1/2 hour per day on FEET ONLY. Like I was saying it takes a very well executed fast double to cut through back line amps in hard rock. I suggest putting a TV up in your practice space...very monotonous work. felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen_dup1 Posted July 31, 2001 Author Share Posted July 31, 2001 A friend of mine is picking up the book, so I will have it tomorrow. They had 15 in stock so I take it is a fairly popular book. Felix, I like that about a T.V. for the monotony. Bart, I'll see if I can get the videos up here as well. It would be easier if I saw somebody do it as well as it might help with those blisters....I tried doing the splitting the pattern thing with the hi hat. That screws me up big time. I start out ok but then all of a sudden pedal madness kicks in and a whole different pattern emerges. Sounds cool too. Felix, I don't know what you mean by getting the singles on 2 3 and 4 etc.. I know time but I don't know drum lingo well. Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted July 31, 2001 Share Posted July 31, 2001 I suggest putting a TV up in your practice space...very monotonous work I imagine you're kinda joking but I totally disagree with any kind of overly repetitive practice technique and watching TV or anything that keeps you from focusing on your practice is going to hurt more than help. Rudiments should be highly focused on until you get them smooth at different tempos and then move on. OK, I'm not a drummer...but I can burn the hell out of piano keys and got that way because I was never repetitive when practicing technique. Practice slow...subdivide...and then when you have it down play it really fast a couple of times and move on. You don't have to take my advice but at least think about it...IMO this will save years of frustration. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 07-30-2001 at 09:55 PM http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 31, 2001 Share Posted July 31, 2001 Hey, Frozen: Do not let the fact that they had 15 of Stone's Stick Control in stock fool you about the books popularity. This just shows that the store recognizes the importance of the book. Stone's is like Bart said ... the drummers Bible. Anyone that I have ever taught was required to study out of this, and anyone that I have taken from required study out of it from me. I have also realized that the info in this book never grows old. It is timeless info and will serve you well. As far as the TV goes. Steve, there are certain excersizes that I do that I sit in front of a mirror for and I pay close attention to stick height, etc. Then there are those exercizes that would be perfectly suited to having another split brained function going at the same time. You must as a student realize what your capacity for this is and discipline yourself accordingly. Hope this helps. DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted July 31, 2001 Share Posted July 31, 2001 If I had a TV on my piano I would play scales and watch TV as well. Sorry, I'm into muscle memory first, concentration/creativity/logic later. It works for me. felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted July 31, 2001 Share Posted July 31, 2001 groupings my son...groupings...the proverbial "shit" in double bass playing to date-soon to be replaced with rudimental playing I am reading. One can group all those little numeric pattern in different "footings" IE L r rl (2's) etc. in a variety of subdivisions and locations within your subdivision ie. 16th's, 8th's, 8th note trips (3's) which would also work in sextuplets. That is just the tip of the iceberg...my son. Pretty soon you will be sounding like Tommy Aldridge, Randy Castille and if you are really good- me....LOL...just kidding. Those patterns really start to "happen" when played over the bar line-but then you have to deal with throwing your band off and the concentration level is definitely intesified when airing out such devastating chops over 4 bars. Ciao felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen_dup1 Posted August 2, 2001 Author Share Posted August 2, 2001 Thanks for all the info guys. I have the book and I'm going to practice the stick control with the feet as well as the hands. Still going to look into the video. Felix, I get what you mean about the groupings thing now..... Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen_dup1 Posted August 4, 2001 Author Share Posted August 4, 2001 You guys remember all these stick controls and rudiments???? There's 41 pages of stick control plus I downloaded the 40 rudiments at PAS. I won't be able to talk to you guys for about a year, lol.... See ya Brad Man learning way too much....but for some saddistic reason, liking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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