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Drum Stagnation?


djarrett

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It is interesting to look back over the history of the drumset and realize that there has been little improvement over the original function and design of the drumset. Shells, heads, rims, lugs, etc. If you compare the development of the dumsets make-up to the development of computers ... we drummers are sitting in the stone age. If you compared the drumset to the development of the automobile, we drummers are driving Flintstone mobiles!

Why do you think it is that we cannot seem to get to the next level with drumset design?

DJ

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There is no GD money in music. No money=no development.

My guitar player is a "pro" and he is so broke all the time it's a shame. He is playing in a cover band right now and hates it. And that money is bad considering you figure in the time invested vs. pay rate.

 

Whatever happened to that guy that built a suspended drumset where one would actually sit down and play this "isolated from the floor" kit. I thought that was cool. But I didn't buy it at the time 'cause I didn't have any money!

 

There is some development in Electronic drums by the big boys Yamaha and Roland but they have money. Last time I looked PV did some cool things with drums, but they have a few bucks too.

 

I kinda think drums are advancing albeit slowly but surely with Rims mounts and different head and stick choices. It's just a money thing I think...shit, if I could play 8 hours a day and make a living, I would find a whole slew of things I could improve. One doesn't see much of a change in oil painting do they?

 

Ciao

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Felix wrote: "One doesn't see much of a change in oil painting do they?"

 

Well, you have got a point if you speak of the art of oil painting, but of course there are some folks that do utilize new styles and then there are the old school folks that emulate the master painters down to actually building their own horsehair brushes!

 

Now, if you refer to oil painting ... say ... like painting your home ... there are all kinds of developments there with new latex paints that smoke oil! This is tremendous advancement in the paint world (I speak with some authority as I have been painting various parts of my home over the last two years! Augh!)

 

You have got a point, however, regarding the money issues within the industry. Let's face it ... there is only a hand full of manufacturers that have even invested in bar coding their product!! For those folks, ... they are flying into the 80's~ the rest of them are still stuck in the stone age! The music instrument manufacturing industry is very small by peer standards!

 

This may be a big part of the problem.

 

DJ

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Originally posted by djarrett:

It is interesting to look back over the history of the drumset and realize that there has been little improvement over the original function and design of the drumset.

*snip*

Why do you think it is that we cannot seem to get to the next level with drumset design?

DJ

 

DJ,

 

What is the next level of drumset design? How far can the "skin" stretched over a "gourd" concept be taken?

 

I think the makers thought racks were going to be the next big thing, and for a while, they were. Get rid of all that nasty hardware. But now? I can't tell you the last time I saw a drummer playing a "rack" kit. You sure don't see any at Mars or in the Wife's Enemy (Musician's Friend) catalog.

 

Rim mounts, new materials, stick and pedal designs, bottom-head, no bottom-head, deep toms, shallow toms, are just variations on a theme. I don't really think you'll ever see a revolution in acoustic drum design.

 

However, digital drums are gonna explode. Probably in the next 10 to 20 years, all this digital stuff (instruments, DAWs, etc...) is really going to gel and start sounding so good that you really can't tell a difference between it and its' analog counterpart. Imagine when, instead of two to seven layers of velocity with the typical digital set, you have around a thousand. Or, instead of one or two zones on a pad, you have about ten thousand. It all comes down to CPU horsepower, and that's increasing every year.

 

Maybe you'll be able to pull up the sound of Ringo's Ludwig kit from Revolver, make your sticks "really" sound like brushes, play the the drum solo to Moby Dick with your hands like Bonzo did.... who knows? And that's treating the digital kit like a traditional acoustic kit.

 

Bob

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I believe in the addage "If it aint broke don't fix it".Not that the acoustic drum as we know it is perfect,but things like wood selection for tone and timbre,suspension mounts to increase resonance and tone,and all the other advances in drum manufacturing,have happened from competition in the industry.Look at the electric guitar.People still play the same fenders and gibsons from the early days,in fact the early originals are the most sought after guitars.Why?Because they have been successful in producing quality sound.The advances in guitar sound has come from advances in processing technology. Drums are no different.I feel that advances in the drum industry should lie in sound reinforcement.Drums are without a doubt the most difficult thing on stage to mix properly.What about user friendly P.A.

ian*

ian*
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It is true that most musicians can be slot into the "starving artist"

category in society (I know musicians who have lived off of puffed wheat cereal for quite a while). Also I think that the drum has been around for

sooooo much longer than any other instrument, In Roman days there were drums and some trumpets but no pre-amps, mixing boards, guitars, sustain pedals and keyboards. I think the drum came into its ultimate stage of evolution long before any other instrument did nowadays. There are steps still being taken to improve drums like racks, mounts, type of wood, and technique to making a drum, but the overall purpose has been the same since they were first introduced.

Look at the design of a drum, it is round, a circle, wheel the most basic concept but one of great skill to master (damn pi and other math),

I think in the future everything will be round, it is a design that has yet to be outdone.

The real future is in drum machines and electronic drums with Artificial Intelligence, its a logical step. Scientists have given the date of approx. 20 years before we have intelligent machines, think of it.. A guitarist plays a riff and the drum set plays a perfect beat with style and grace (the whole damn band might be robots). We're a dying breed soon to be out of a job.

Hope that didn't bring you down.

Peace

 

Simeon

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Nope just plain old oil painting as an art...buy yah, I see your point of the chemical developments in exterior paint-why have there been so many-cause sherwin williams has deep pockets.

 

 

I look forward to the day where everything is round and I can get an Alesis SR-16 implanted in my brain-the world will look like a Dali painting- then I can preprogram my limbs and quantize my own body movements. Ater that I could be replaced by a hologram...but, I will be in a rest home by then playing an outta tune piano looking forward to my next sponge bath.

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Hey, ian*:

I lived in Mobile for one year while I was a kid! We moved two month before Camille struck Mobile!

I spent one semester in school in Hammond, LA. studying marching drum techniques and writing with Will Rapp on a Drum Corps scholarship. I must say ... Hammond was out in the US outback!!

 

LOL,

DJ

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Hey good discussion! [the first half anyway] http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

I don't think you can quite compare drum manufacturing technology to multitrack recording technology. DAWs exist because of the need for more channels, higher fidelity, faster workflow, and inproved price-performance ratio. It's definitely a feature-based market, and there are tons of manufacturers trying to gain control of the market by offering new bells & whistles all the time. These factors drive DAW technological development.

 

Drums on the other hand, are more of an aesthetic thing. Drums are about feel and response and character. It really is a unique instrument in this regard. Not even guitars can be thought of in the same way. It's the reason electronic kits haven't taken off, it's the reason people still lug cumbersome equipment around, and it's the reason prices are still fairly high.

 

I see no indication that innovation in drum technology is going to improve things much. I really don't think it's needed. Certainly not in electronics (players and bandmates like the sounds coming *off* the drums). If anything, I'd like to see movements to simplify tuning (it just takes forever) and lighter-weight shell construction. I've seen both attempts made at NAMM, but nothing quite to my satisfaction.

 

Personally, I like drums more or less the way they are.

Just for the record.
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Well, let me give my 2 cents from a different point of view. (a keyboard players)

 

I compare drums a lot to the piano. The best pianos are still compared to Steinways from 10's of years ago. Their hasn't been that much in terms of development, it's basically a 'mature' product.

 

Then look at where synths have gone. They've complemented what is available for keyboard players, but have not (and will not) replace a piano.

 

I see the same thing with the drum set. The electronic drums sets will get closer to behaving like an acoustic set, at the same time offering capabilities never imagined (like synths did). Yet, even as it gets close to duplicate the feel, sound, and playability of a drum set, it won't replace it.

 

And I think that's a good thing.

 

Rod

Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Motif ES Rack / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / SE-05 / Jupiter Xm / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II

MBP-LOGIC

American Deluxe P-Bass, Yamaha RBX760

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I don't know about the "next level". Seems like the drum is a fairly basic instrument: A cylindrical shell with a membrane stretched over each end. What more is there to improve on?

 

Every type of wood, number of ply, hardware, rims, mounts, shapes and designs have just about been done. With technology the way it is, we've quickly discovered what works (and doesn't work) in the way of the physics of music.

 

So all of this to say ... is there really another level to be obtained? I guess we will never REALLY know until some discovers or creates the next latest and greatest thing. I would think that cymbals could still go a long way because of the nuances involved in the metals, shapes, etc., which can drastically affect the sound. Thoughts?

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum
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Just read the "Drum Porn" post.We drummers are in love with our drums in every way.Playing an electonic kit would be like making love to a droid.The aesthical value of the drumkit alone is worth the effort it takes to set it up.A stage with an electric kit looks empty,missing that familiar presence that everyone associates with good music.

There will undoubtedly be innovation in drum manufacturing,but it would be a sin to deviate too far into the technological trap.

ian*

ian*
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Originally posted by ian*:

Just read the "Drum Porn" post.We drummers are in love with our drums in every way.Playing an electonic kit would be like making love to a droid.

 

I don't really get why a drummer would even consider an electronic kit other than for quiet practicing, convenience in micing, or because they're playing techno/electronic-sounding music. I've spent years doing the MIDI thing with sequenced, sampled drums (played in with a keyboard -- yeech) and I'm just tired of that sound and feel. None of my favorite albums have that sound, so why should my own music have it?

 

Yet, when I go to the drum shop, there's always a drummer who is just bashing the heck out of an electronic kit... I guess everyone wants something they don't have...

 

 

 

 

This message has been edited by popmusic on 07-03-2001 at 12:07 PM

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I'm a keyboard/ piano player turned into an addicted drummer. All I can say is, wood rules when it comes to drums, piano's and acoustic guitars. I have a Baby grand piano. The only reason I bought one, was because I listen to classical music and tried many digital piano's and they could not reproduce the sound or feel of the real hammers swinging to pound the strings. There's way too many overtones to try to get an accurate sample sound. The wood resonation is still too complex for a computer algorithm to sample accurately. I've tried Kurzweill, Alesis, Roland, Akai you name it. The same with drum sounds. I've had a DM5, D4, TD7 and now I have a TD8 with Pintech pads. I use the electronic for quiet practice and figuring out songs while recording with midi. But when I've got the pattern I want the electronic is muted and I record the acoustic. The cymbals come to life and the snare, kick and toms wake up and push the air and resonate the wood. I know there is triggers being used to ramp up the sounds of the acoustic set. I haven't tried that yet but I will. Love the acoustics for piano, guitar and those ever so addicting drums!!!

 

Brad

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Hey Guys, a lot has changed in drumming! I am one of the Girls of WFD Extreme Sport Drumming, WHAT? Girl Drummer! Extreme Sport Drumming! If you want to see some changes find me at www.ExtremeSportDrumming.com oh! and how about the Basketball kid? And you thought there weren't any changes in drumming. Shame on you!
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So how do I do it? Spaz on single strokes for one minute? Too funny, I'd like to do it though...oh geez, all these drummers everywhere spazzing on single strokes, forsaking the holy grail of all sticking patterns-whatever they are.

 

I think I have a new routine to my warm ups now!

 

Oh, we were talking about changes in the drum itself, not hardware/heads and sticks so much where there have been a ton of changes.

 

Ciao

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Ok, lets say I want to go for the record. 1100 beats divided by 60 is an average of 18.3 beats at 60 bpm sooooooo if I played a series of 9's at 120 bpm that will put me at 1080 beats in a frigging minute. I'll try it on my lunch break and post the results. It doesn't sound impossible....
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felix, yeah that where all this started, these two guys in nashville invented a drum stroke counting machine called "drumometer" and from that came the WFD contest. There is possibly one close to you or maybe a nearby store carriers them etc. where do you live?
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Hey, Felix:

This stuff is the real deal.

We are talking Guiness World Records stuff.

 

Not that this is what drumming is all about. Much like sports, it is about the game! ... but, you have those that within the game and individual sports ... like to push the envelope and set speed records.

 

The Drum-o-meter is being used to determine, fastest feet, fastest stick playing, fastest hand playing, fastest tap dancing , etc.

 

Check out www.ExtremeSportDrumming.com

 

I think we should start a seperate thread on Extreme Sport Drumming.

I will initiate!

 

Thanks,

DJ

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*Tee Hee Hee*...drank a liter of mountain dew and managed to do bursts in excess of 900 single beats a minute (5's at 180 bpm)and I could keep it together for 10-15 seconds. Not bad...I havn't played since Sunday either. I didn't want to screw up my wrists. Need a big warm up and get the fingers and wrists working in perfect harmony to do it for a minute. Nice change of pace. I think I could make 1000 in not too long. I don't think I could ever make 5's at 220 bpm though. What a blast. There was this kid at school who had a cobra tattooed on his stomach that used to shred doubles like the devil was after him. I used to hang with the dude once inna while in the pad room and we used to just frigging blast doubles. Too fun.

 

FELIX-

THE EXTREME DRUMMER!!!!!!!!!

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Yeah, 60 seconds gets EXTREMELY longer than ever dreamed of under this thing. I did it at the World Finals and froze because of the lights and there were so many fans. I ran like 700's, Suck! If you have never seen one of these events see http;//www.westlamusic.com go to extreme drumming event. i think my photo is there or maybe it is over at WFD site? I'll ck. The World Finals will be there this coming Jan. and I am pumped about the Travis Barker and Tre Cool battle.
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