Positive or Negative Re-enforcement -- Which do you think works best?

[djarrett]

I want to reach down into something that Felix mentioned in another thread.

He mentioned "Granted, I was a beat student at the time and we ripped on everybody cause we were always getting ripped on."

 

This was not the first time this was made reference to.

 

I personally see this too often at the school and especially college level.

Why all this negative re-enforcement today? I really think we all have enough to be down about already. We do not need our instructors or drum peers dragging us down. Why do you think you endured all of this negativity and how did you cope.

Do you think it left a long-lasting negative impression on you?

Did it leave you feeling like you did not measure up?

 

What can we do as motivators, teachers, instructors to make this a better environment for all concerned?

 

Does it really matter?

 

Thanks,

DJ

[felix stein]

see "practice more suck more" thread

 

POSTED FROM DJ

Why all this negative re-enforcement today? I really think we all have enough to be down about already. We do not need our instructors or drum peers dragging us down. Why do you think you endured all of this negativity and how did you cope.

Do you think it left a long-lasting negative impression on you?

Did it leave you feeling like you did not measure up?

 

What can we do as motivators, teachers, instructors to make this a better environment for all concerned?

 

It's funny you should say that cause I can't take a compliment to this frigging day about my playing and when I give a musician a compliment and they say "thanks" I think to myself "god, are you arrogant"- pretty dysfunctional thinking huh?

 

I have had many many drum teachers through out my short life...bad ones and good ones. I think my favorite of all was one of the most hated teachers at PIT (at least in my class) he was the reading teacher there and was really gruff and tough- Gary Hess. I loved the guy! His time was fantastic and his reading was amazing. I would go in there and everyone there would make a peep. I was like "()*& this guy, I'll show him" well, he turned out to be my favorite teacher there...everything was black and white...no LA bullshit. He wouldn't brag about how many gigs he had to play this week or who he would be recording with. So I went to one of his private lessons and there was no one there. He was kinda surprised and he translated this 12/16 beat that I was playing for me in about 2 seconds and we talked for the rest of the half hour or so. He was so down to earth.

 

Negative Reinforcemnt? I'd say it is spawned from jealousy of a media inflated occupation and when someone young and naive is not a "rockstar" after playing for a year/decade/whatever they go thru periods of negativity/depression before realizing what drumming is about (if anyone finds out-please let me know LOL). Then they have to keep playing for a whole new set of reasons. I don't see it anymore-I have one or two drumming buddies and they are as "humble" as myself. FELIX STEIN IS THE BEST AND WORST OF ALL DRUMMERS THAT WALK OR HAVE WALKED THE FACE OF THE EARTH QUITE POSSIBLY THE UNIVERSE!!!!!!! ok, time to work

 

pretty funny huh?

[clockwirk]

I think that positive reinforcement is essential especially for a young student. It's nothing but destructive to harp on some poor kid because he doesn't have his stuff together that week. The big question at that stage is "how do I make this kid WANT to learn this stuff?". Giving him/her a negative association with the drums is the last thing you want to do.

 

That said, I think that there is a "negative" reinforcement in college that is beneficial. Not the kind that strives to keep individuals down for the ego stroking of the faculty and upperclassmen, but the reality of "you're here to work and you're going to get your butt kicked." The student doesn't need the teacher to be his best friend in all situations, he needs to be put in positions of pressure and risk where growth happens. Nothing makes you learn faster than being with people who: are better than you, know when you screw up, and don't let you get away with it. Of course, this isn't for everybody. You don't HAVE to do this to enjoy music. But, I got my degree in piano performance, and the times that I had the most growth was when my teacher would light a fire under me until I worked hard enough. The worst thing in college is to go to your lesson, play, and have the teacher say, "sounds good, see you next week."

 

I think what we have to watch out for is re-enforcement that tears a student down in his self perception. You never want your student to think that his/her personal worth is dependant on what he can do. But, I don't think all negative re-enforcement does that.

[DrummerCafe]

I feel like a lot of the negative attitude and competitive nature comes directly from the school music programs.

 

The public school music programs are built on competitive activities, rather than just encouraging students to grow musically simply for music's sake.

 

In the Fall, 99% of the music programs are busy with marching band. It's not enough to have a nice marching band program and play some great music ... they have to compete at contests against other schools. Scores, points and ratings are given out to bands; trophies and awards go to the highest scores.

 

In the Spring, it's back indoors with Concert or Symphonic band. Literature is learned not only for the future concert but for once again ... COMPETITION!!! Students are driven to execute the music flawlessly; performing for high scores, ratings, "sweepstakes", awards and trophies. If that's not enough, the students are encouraged to go to Solo & Ensemble competitions which, depending the size of the State they live in, goes from Local, Regional, to State level competitions. Awards, medals and ratings are the prize for doing a "good job".

 

When viewing the music competitions, I initially have no problems with them. But they have become the basis for which many a student exists and/or practices. What a shame that school music programs have placed so much emphasis on these year-round competitions ... and less importance on the beauty of music. Letting a student feel good for performing a wonderful piece of music; enjoying music for what it is ... MUSIC.

 

To me, this competitive nature is the root of what this thread is addressing. It's no longer enough for students to work towards a great public performance or concert. Their self-worth, musically speaking, is all based around these ratings and scores, which most of the time are biased and don't really mean much in reality.

 

I may ruffle some feathers here, but Drum Corps is partly to blame as well. When I was young, I could think of nothing but marching in corps. Thank God I grew out of that model for my musical career. It plays a purpose and can be a lot of fun ... but it's gotten out of hand in my opinion. It's turned ugly, giving students a platform with which to slam others and become very critical.

 

Can you imagine playing a gig at Carnegie Hall in front of thousands of people, when you notice some guy wandering around on stage with a small tape recorder and a clicker ... making comments out loud as you play; clicking away at every "tick". Then, at the end of the night, you finish your last song only to look out and see people holding up score cards?! That would be a nightmare if this was an every day occurrence for any musician; novice or pro.

 

Competitions can be healthy, but there has got to be a line drawn. Perhaps if the music itself was more of the focus rather than the rating or award, I wouldn't feel so strongly. I've taught enough young people for enough years to know what drives them. Hearing them race through the corridors screaming "WE GOT SWEEPSTAKES" is enough to make my skin crawl.

 

Whatever happened about just playing a beautiful piece of music and moving the audience? Whatever happened to the ART of MUSIC? It's almost (I said almost, not impossible) to have this type experience in the real world. Sports is based on scores. If you play sports in school or professionally, you have ratings and scores; there's a winner and there's a loser. Music is much different. Sure there are music awards for achievement, Top 40 lists, etc.; but for the majority, music is not structured around such things. In sports there is a clear and immediate winner and loser. Music is not a sport it's an ART form.

 

Perhaps the "music sportsman" comes from the jocks calling the musicians "band fags" for all those decades. The music program(s) deemed it necessary to be more like an athletic department and treat music like it's a contact sport.

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

[djarrett]

Originally posted by Bartman:

 

I feel like a lot of the negative attitude and competitive nature comes directly from the school music programs.

 

Whoa, Bart: This one you cannot blame on schools!

 

The public school music programs are built on competitive activities, rather than just encouraging students to grow musically simply for music's sake.

 

This is not a school music programs issue. This is a society issue.

 

When we pay school teachers, policemen, firemen, etc., an average of 30-40,000.00/year, and pay a baseball player a 10 year contract at 110 MILLION, while there are kids learning in broom closets and one mouth not getting fed in this country, ... there is something seriously wrong with this!

 

In the Fall, 99% of the music programs are busy with marching band. It's not enough to have a nice marching band program and play some great music ... they have to compete at contests against other schools. Scores, points and ratings are given out to bands; trophies and awards go to the highest scores.

 

Well, we differ in opinion here. I see no difference here than I do a spelling bee, or taking a final exam, or SAT tests. We are a competitive species. The problem is the unbalanced and unchecked extreme to which we take it.

 

In the Spring, it's back indoors with Concert or Symphonic band. Literature is learned not only for the future concert but for once again ... COMPETITION!!! Students are driven to execute the music flawlessly; performing for high scores, ratings, "sweepstakes", awards and trophies. If that's not enough, the students are encouraged to go to Solo & Ensemble competitions which, depending the size of the State they live in, goes from Local, Regional, to State level competitions. Awards, medals and ratings are the prize for doing a "good job".

 

When viewing the music competitions, I initially have no problems with them. But they have become the basis for which many a student exists and/or practices. What a shame that school music programs have placed so much emphasis on these year-round competitions ... and less importance on the beauty of music. Letting a student feel good for performing a wonderful piece of music; enjoying music for what it is ... MUSIC.

 

To me, this competitive nature is the root of what this thread is addressing. It's no longer enough for students to work towards a great public performance or concert. Their self-worth, musically speaking, is all based around these ratings and scores, which most of the time are biased and don't really mean much in reality.

 

Well, I agree that some of the outcomes of music competitions is based more on bias than on reality, but this can be tied back to our society again. When politician's can be lobbied to pass bills with "bribes" like season football tickets, or our President can get away with lying under oath, how should we expect there to be honest "anythings" these days?

 

I may ruffle some feathers here, but Drum Corps is partly to blame as well. When I was young, I could think of nothing but marching in corps. Thank God I grew out of that model for my musical career. It plays a purpose and can be a lot of fun ... but it's gotten out of hand in my opinion. It's turned ugly, giving students a platform with which to slam others and become very critical.

 

Well, you ruffled my feathers, but only slightly. When I marched Drum Corps, it was still a balance of entertainment and competition.

 

The competitive nature has, however, taken the musical sport into a level never imagined by anyone. Kids are doing unthinkable feats on the field these days. Playing entire symphonies with blistering note demands and running across the field holding patterns at speeds tracked in miles per hour! A study done a few years ago by the University of Indiana proved a Drum Corp member's pulse rate at the end of a show to that of Triathalon Athletes!!

 

A 1987 Sports Illustrated article placed Drum Corps as the Third (that is right, ... I said 3rd) most competitive sport in the world!! Unfortunately, it came in as the 30th spectated sport in the world.

 

This musical sport has raised the musical bar. Allowing us to no longer endure the "yo-yo" drills and whole note marching band football half-time shows of yesteryear!

 

It has significantly grown the music programs of high schools and colleges across the nation and now we are seeing the popularity grow Internationally!

 

Can you imagine playing a gig at Carnegie Hall in front of thousands of people, when you notice some guy wandering around on stage with a small tape recorder and a clicker ... making comments out loud as you play; clicking away at every "tick". Then, at the end of the night, you finish your last song only to look out and see people holding up score cards?! That would be a nightmare if this was an every day occurrence for any musician; novice or pro.

 

Well, it *has* been a while since you have been to a DCI show. In 1984, the "tick-system" was done away with. No longer are Corps scored based on things done wrong, but rather there is a point build system that rewards for correctly executed marching patterns, rudimentary passages, scale runs, musicality, etc.

 

However, this is not to say that this is not without problems. Most folks that are into Drum Corps will tell you that last year the Madison Scouts had one of the most entertaining shows. Musically they were not as clean, but they had TONS of General Effect (GE)

 

The crowd LOVED them, but the judges placed them way down the ranks. This decision was met with a huge amount of Boos and Hissing!

 

Competitions can be healthy, but there has got to be a line drawn. Perhaps if the music itself was more of the focus rather than the rating or award, I wouldn't feel so strongly. I've taught enough young people for enough years to know what drives them. Hearing them race through the corridors screaming "WE GOT SWEEPSTAKES" is enough to make my skin crawl.

 

Whatever happened about just playing a beautiful piece of music and moving the audience? Whatever happened to the ART of MUSIC? It's almost (I said almost, not impossible) to have this type experience in the real world. Sports is based on scores. If you play sports in school or professionally, you have ratings and scores; there's a winner and there's a loser. Music is much different. Sure there are music awards for achievement, Top 40 lists, etc.; but for the majority, music is not structured around such things. In sports there is a clear and immediate winner and loser. Music is not a sport it's an ART form.

 

Well, I can tell you that when you are marching on the field, the last thing at that moment is winning or losing by the majority. It is about performing! Loving the music. Relishing the crowds as they go nuts for the stick tossing you just successfully smoked!

 

It *IS* at that moment ... about the music!

 

Perhaps the "music sportsman" comes from the jocks calling the musicians "band fags" for all those decades. The music program(s) deemed it necessary to be more like an athletic department and treat music like it's a contact sport.

 

Well, I can tell you that I was one of those guys that used to be called a band fag! I tried to channel that negative funning into a positive. I knew that these folks just did not understand what it was like to be in the band. They would never know the tight knit family that we were.

 

Truth was, most of the girls thought we drummers were cool and the guys called us band fags out of resentment!

 

I can tell you that in this past Modern Drummer, Ron Spagnardi posed a similar letter from the editor about the competitive nature of drumming. In the letter, he slammed all competitive aspects of drumming. It has not been met by most drummers sitting down! Folks are up in arms about this.

 

Truth is, drumming has been competitve from early on.

 

For years, there have been the Highland drum competitions in Scotland. I can remember learning my 26 rudiments from a Frank Arsenalt album from 1956!! when he was the National Drum Champion. I have been through try-outs, and auditions, and juries in college, all of which are competitive in nature!!

 

I can tell you that living in Nashville has taught me that very little about the songs we listen to is about the music anymore. It is about making money and topping the charts. I call that competitive just as much as I would High School band, but on a much grander scale!!

 

If you want to attack competition ... attack our society. Next time you watch the Super Bowl, ... think about that!!!!

 

It is like with everything else in life, ... there has to be balance!

DJ

 

[/b]

[DrummerCafe]

DJ,

 

I agree with you 100% brother. I'm not solely blaming the school music programs with all of this however. Society is at the root of course, but in music it's the music program by which this stuff is carried out for young musicians. There are other influences obviously, but I'm just addressing the music role.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not "against" competition; but there must be balance and moderation. There must be a sense that competition is what it is ... competition and nothing more. Competition doesn't make me a better musician, although the venue may give a platform for which to strive to grow and prefect.

 

I'm well aware that most of our problems come from society issues, but more than that it's family issues: lack of morals, fathers not in the home, etc. I was trying to keep my comments directed towards musical issues and the role it plays in the problems this thread original addressed. I'm not trying to single out the music programs.

 

As you admitted, there ARE problems within the system, and I do believe they feed the deeper issues. So, they are accountible for there role in all of this. Just because one does it doesn't mean the rest have to follow.

 

I think the big point I was trying to get across was the fact that the scales are way off balance. To much emphasis is placed on competition and too little is placed on musicality.

 

I've worked with drumlines, marching bands and drum corps; I know what is involved in putting a show together and learning the music. I know it can be a lot of fun ... I had fun when I was involved. It played a role in me becoming a professional musician. But the fact of the matter is, I don't know any professional drumlines (except Hip Pickles, which is a trio), marching bands or drum corps. You can't make a living playing in one of these mediums ... well, unless you are an instructor, but that's not PLAYING. FYI ... thanks for pointing out the changes in DCI; I had no idea and think it's a positive step on their part. Nowadays, I spend a lot of time with students trying to correct, what I consider, poor playing habits that come from being in drumlines. Stiff, pulsing arms, lack of the use of wrists ... you know ... all the stuff that would make Freddie Gruber's head spin! LOL I realize that you need this "stiff" technique when trying to match each other visually. That kind of playing is great for the drumline, but like I said, there are very few, if any, positions available for professional drumlines. I help them develop the proper technique that will get them gigs and make a living as a professional drummer or percussionist. I can hear those rustling feathers already ... LOL!.

 

The fun that comes from music competition can be healthy. But this thread was about positive versus negative re-enforcement; and I happen to think that the school music programs are partly to blame for the heavy negative re-enforcement that comes from the constant competitive mindset. Kids can play very well and still not "win" at competitions.

 

The biggest award or should I say REWARD is making music. In music, that should be the ultimate high ... the highest goal. Unfortunately, it's not because it stands in the shadows of competition ... giving positive re-enforcement to the winner and negative re-enforcement to the loser. There are more losers than winners in these competitions ... therefore addressing it's lack or fault in all of this. When I was in drumline years ago, high school and college, I disliked ALL other drumlines and the schools they were from. In college, there was an attempt to "break the ice" and go over and talk to drummers from other drumlines. But in the back of our minds, we "hated them ... they were the enemy and we must squash them like bugs." What's up with that?! That kind of attitude was awful. Maybe I'm the only one that ever felt that or thought that way; Lord knows I'm the chief of all sinners. The fraternal nature that I now possess did not come from competitions I can tell you that. I'm sure you will say that you got along with everyone while marching corps; that you never judged their playing in your mind and always befriended the players from opposing drumlines. Well, I didn't and that's what scares me. If other kids feel and have the thoughts I had, then my point is well stated. If I'm the only one, I guess I need to schedule some time with a therapist. LOL http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Again, I can't say it enough, I'm all for healthy competition, as long as perspective is maintained and things of the highest importance, like making beautiful music and being the best musician you can, are kept in the forefront. With our society the way it is, I don't know how to effectively achieve this and still stay in the system.

 

Well ... I'd better stop, catch my breath and give some of you a chance to respond.

[djarrett]

Hey Bart:

I of course being human, did (and still do) watch drumlines and flinch when things are not executed properly. I must admit that prior to marching drum corps, I had a much higher "high" watching them than I do now.

I have a much more critical ear and have to force myself just to enjoy the show. But this is not isolated to drum corps or marching bands,

This carries into any musical performance. Want to make my skin crawl, ... force me to sit and listen to a inharmonious harmony being sung by a group! Might as well pull my fingernails out! I even get embarrased for the ill-performing performers!

Why is this?

I do not know. Perhaps I am a perfectionist that cannot just sit back and Carpediem! Perhaps this is something we all need to work on.

 

I find it even hard sometimes to enjoy playing because I am so busy criticizing my own playing! What is that all about?

 

Just need to relax and enjoy life! I am not sure that any of this fell out of competition or anything more than a desire to succeed. I will say that I find watching a great band a truly delightful experience. That makes me smile!

 

DJ

[DrummerCafe]

Yeah, I'm a perfectionist too ... BIG TIME. For me, the competition as well as having a poor father figure only enhanced the perfectionistic side of me.

 

I have to work very hard to not analyze music all the time. That's what I did while working on my Bachelor of Music and Masters of Music degrees. Now I have a hard time just enjoying the music; whether listening or playing. I'm a wreck in church and find it difficult to worship God when the music is being played poorly. I should be focusing on the music itself, but my ears gravitate towards it ... wanting to fix things all the time. I do much better when I'm playing in church rather than sitting in the congregation.

 

I think some of that comes from being an educator as well. I am hired as a consultant to find, analyze and fix musical problems. I wonder if plastic surgeons go around looking at people, seeing the "imperfection" and thinking of what they could do to "help" these poor souls. It's sad, but too true. I guess the good thing is ... I'm aware of it and am working on it.

[Steve LeBlanc]

I'm too on the fence to really come to one conclusion on this one so I'll just make a few comments...

 

My first teachers gave me tons of Positive Re-enforcement...I think this was a good thing...I really needed it because...

 

My family was horribly jealous of the fact that I picked up music quickly and excelled. I come from a really musical family...I got a lot of Negative shit from them...it took years for even my closest brother to compliment my playing. But this really motivated me...my Dad was probably the worst about tearing me down...to some extent he was a little paranoid about his kids becoming better musicians than him.

 

My Dad motivated me to improve more than anyone and since he died I haven't been able to achieve the same creative level (and pace) I was at when he was alive.

 

Also the best Teacher I had (Dick Grove) would always give me shit...I was a rebellious teen...believe me I needed it or I would have continued thinking I was GREAT. Without out his Negative comments I don't think I would have handled playing out in the real world as well. I had to be pretty tough skinned to keep some of the gigs I did when I was a full-time working musician.

 

So...I don't know...I give my nephew nothing but Positive Re-enforcement but sometimes I wonder if I should be more critical...right now no one that I know of busts his ass. I don't want to be the asshole though...maybe I can convince him to go to school for a couple of years. I think his playing will suffer if he doesn't have someone he respects cut his ego down to size.

[felix stein]

I would just like to say what a great job you all are doing with your posting. Keep up the good work. I would also like to say that it is very nice to see that we all have alot of the same "hangups", for lack of a better word, that we have to live with. I like the different perspectives from the different personalities here- I think you bozos are actually helping my head and my playing a little (very little I might add LOL). IT'S JUST MUSIC.

 

But it can make one crazy.

 

As far as the thread goes, I believe negative reinforcement can really light a fire under a cocky musician's butt...especially if dealt out by a mentor. When I used to teach, I would rip on two of my students especially that really showed the most promise I taught- they were cocky, don't get me wrong. Those kids are still playing today-gunning for "me" (symbolically?) I'm sure.

[Steve LeBlanc]

I would just like to say what a great job you all are doing with your posting. Keep up the good work.

 

Thanks a lot for the positive re-enforcement...we're all bound to get big headed now...I hope our posts don't suffer...heh

[djarrett]

Do you guys still fill the same, ... a year later?

 

What about you new guys?

 

DJ

[Dan South]

Hey, guys! May I chime in?

 

I think it depends on the individual. Look at the military. Lots of guys go in and turn their lives around; others wallow in misery and count the days to their discharge. The military is big on negative reinforcement, so I guess it works for some people. I also think that negative reinforcement can be beneficial in life and death situations where decisions have to be made instantly (fire fighting, warfare, surgery, etc.)

 

That said, I personally have a hard time with overtly negative criticism. It makes me feel as though the critic has ignored the many things that I've done right in order to harp on the few things that I've done wrong. I'm not arrogant or full of myself. I'm willing to accept that my skills need improvement, and I'm happy to receive any feedback that can highlight the areas that need work. But when someone rips the crap out of me, I just find it discouraging.

 

A balanced approach works best for me. I thrive on encouragement, but I need a reality check now and then to make sure that I'm careful to address problem areas that I might otherwise ignore.

 

I think that the best feedback, though, positive OR negative, comes from the playback of a tape recorder (or other recording device). No human can convey what I need to hear better than a session of listening to my own mistakes. That is an ENORMOUSLY powerful catalyst for growth. I only wish that I'd employed it years earlier.

 

My two cents from the low end.

 

 

P.S. You guys are all AWESOME!

 

[Jazzman]

Hi all......I think that positive and negative reinforcements need to balanced, and based on the situation at hand. Good positive reinforcement should be used sparingly or it might sound like everything that you do is good, no matter how close to bad the situation is.

 

On the other hand negative reinforcement should be used when a point needs to be made that is critical to the method.

 

Positive reinforcement should be used if the person gets close to the method and a little incouragement will push the result and attitude of the player to the right goal. Positive reinforcement can be used in small steps to achieve the short term goals, while negative reinforcement can position the person in larger steps to do the same thing. But the use of positive reinforcement need to be used after the negative reinforcements has been implimented.

 

I don't know if this makes sense to all of you but the right person should know how to use both methods to accomplish the required goal.

 

Striking out at a person in a negative way all of the time is unhealthy, and only leads the person being beat up to rebell and distract others, or decide to just flat out quit completely. Not a good scene.

 

My thoughts.........

 

Jazzman

[Tedly Nightshade]

Electroshock training taught monkeys to orbit the earth in a spacecraft, doing all the tasks done by the Apollo astronauts later on.

These monkeys were kidnapped from the wild at age two and electricity did the rest.

 

Try that with positive reinforcement!

 

I, myself, wouldn't do that with a monkey. Maybe there's a reason I'm not ruling the world right now...

And maybe why I keep trying to subtitute musicality and taste for rudimentary discipline.

Ted