felix stein Posted May 9, 2001 Share Posted May 9, 2001 free love, lots of drugs and the 60's were an era that I can't relate to so I always hated the rolling stones except for a couple two/ three songs... so you mean you don't like Charlie's feel on Honkey Tonk Woman? felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 9, 2001 Share Posted May 9, 2001 YIKES!!! The Stones with Simon Phillips? Or even Bonham? You're TOTALLY missing the point of the Stones, dude. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif Charlie's "looseness" is one of the things that makes the Stones who they are. It's PERFECT for them. CRIPES the beginning of "Honky Tonk Women" or "Can't You Hear Me Knocking" is some of the coolest guitar/drum interplay on record! Just to name a couple. Anybody who thinks the Stones need to be "tighter" needs to go back and listen to the blues records they were emulating - Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Jimmy Reed, Elmore James - and get a clue what kind of musical vision they were serving. That shit is LOOSE, and FUNKY. You don't have to like it but the Stones certainly did accomplish what THEY were going for! Sheeesh.... next you'll be suggesting that Stewart Copeland shoulda played with the Who. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 9, 2001 Share Posted May 9, 2001 Hey Felix, Free love and drugs are not anything I can relate to either, but what I love about the Stones has nothing to do with that. You probably enjoy Charlie Parker or Billie Holiday and they were drug addicts too - so what? A lot of people seem to associate the Stones with this sort of "dark vibe" but to me it's just joyous and raucous and danceable. They had a true passion for the blues and managed to carry that vibe forward, wry humor and all, and give it their own sensibilities. I used to have a lot of the same bad taste in my mouth for Led Zeppelin because I had so many classmates as a teenager in the 70's who used Zeppelin as the backdrop for their drugs and decadence, which I didn't relate to (and of course, Zeppelin's own decadence is quite legendary). But I really am glad I later went back and listened to them again and forced that bias out of my mind, because it's great MUSIC. That's what it's all about. --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 05-09-2001 at 03:37 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted May 9, 2001 Share Posted May 9, 2001 so you mean you don't like Charlie's feel on Honkey Tonk Woman? I did say I respect him...that tune is a good example...the intro feels great! My son plays a lot like that (he's almost 2 year old now http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif), I dig it. go back and listen to the blues records they were emulating - Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Jimmy Reed, Elmore James Maybe my biggest problem is that they were emulating...not successful in my opinion...I listen to old blues records and hear a lot more musicianship than The Stones ever offered. Oh, one more thing...I think you put a bit too much emphasis on my "tighter drummer" comment. Or perhaps I didn't make it clear enough...to me being a tight drummer doesn't mean playing like a machine. Simon Phillips is technically a very loose drummer (or at least I hear him that way), so was Bonham...but they always FEEL perfectly in pocket to me. This is all subjective stuff like the threads on Eric Clapton, etc. in the guitar forum. Personally, I much prefer the feel of a drummer who has command of his kit over a sloppy guy who seems to struggle with whatever beat he's playing. This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 05-09-2001 at 03:57 PM http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 9, 2001 Share Posted May 9, 2001 LOL Steve... just goes to show ya... I've NEVER thought of Simon Phillips as a "loose" drummer, Bonham was more so but do you recall that in Zep's heyday people used to criticize him for being too stiff and heavy handed? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I don't think Charlie sounds at all like he's about to lose control of the beat, ever. To the extent that he ever screws up it's because everyone in the Stones has to follow Keith. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif In any case if you listen to any of those blues drummers they're extremely loose too, but it's a push-pull thing between all the players and it works. The Stones IMO are one of the few bands who DID pull that off. But obviously, what you hear is different from what I hear. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted May 9, 2001 Share Posted May 9, 2001 yeah, I just hate The Stones I guess...actually I don't hate them as much as I think they're way overrated. I never bought any of their albums but I've been forced to hear them many times. "Sympathy for the Devil" is the one tune I really dig..even Keith Richards silly guitar riffs. We can certainly agree to disagree on them...I just like to poke fun at them now and again...especially when it pushes someone's buttons (like you Lee http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif). What can I say, I've got a sick sense of humor http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif. I'm just having fun spouting my opinions on this forum...The Stones won't lose any sleep over it. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 WHAT DO YOU MEAN Steve??? How dare you have any opinions! I would NEVER do such a thing! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 I couldn't stand the Stones for a looong time. I was listening to & playing progrock & jazz. Then I became a working drummer and found the dance floor would fill as soon as we kicked into a Stones song. Nothing like watching a bunch of pretty women bumping & grinding on the dancefloor! I learned to appreciate the Stones http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: yeah, I just hate The Stones I guess...actually I don't hate them as much as I think they're way overrated. I never bought any of their albums but I've been forced to hear them many times. "Sympathy for the Devil" is the one tune I really dig..even Keith Richards silly guitar riffs. We can certainly agree to disagree on them...I just like to poke fun at them now and again...especially when it pushes someone's buttons (like you Lee http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif). What can I say, I've got a sick sense of humor http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif. I'm just having fun spouting my opinions on this forum...The Stones won't lose any sleep over it. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 But the question *IS*, can Charlie Watts throw down rudiments? DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 Yes, Charlie Watts can "throw down" some rudiments. He's actually a great jazz drummer believe it our not. You can find him on several recordings with his own group. Charlie Watts is the only sane member of The Rolling Stones; and in my opinion, the only "real" musician of the bunch! LOL ------------------ Bart Elliott http://bartelliott.com Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 Yeah Charlie does know his rudiments and is a great example of what learning them can do for your feel, IMO. As for "sane", Bart, depends on your definition of "sane". You don't hang around as long as the Stones have and go through as much as they did without having more strength of character than a lot of people probably give them credit for. I've met Keith Richards and found him extremely "sane", very much in touch with reality and a nice and generous guy. Charlie's great too but he's a genuine eccentric. I mean that in a good way, but he would probably seem very peculiar to a lot of people! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I really dug him when I met him and there is no doubt of any of their enduring passion for music, or willingness to work hard at it. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 I guess Keith was sober when you met him too? The whole "sane" thing was a joke! (i.e. LOL) Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clockwirk Posted May 10, 2001 Author Share Posted May 10, 2001 You know what always bugged me about Charlie Watts? The way he'd never play his hi hat together with his snare on the backbeat. I know it's such a miniscule issue, and it doesn't really matter, but I would always see him playing with the Stones and it would bug the heck out of me!! I'd find myself yelling, "just keep playing the hihat!! You don't have to stop!!" Maybe I'm just neurotic... ~clockwirk~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 LOL clock... well for one thing, he doesn't always do that. And he does it on purpose to emphasize the "clean" sound of the snare rather than the snare "adulterated" by the hi-hat. Maybe you don't like it but there IS a point to it, he's not just doing it to drive you nuts. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted May 11, 2001 Share Posted May 11, 2001 I totally agree with Lee. Whoever said that you have to strike the hi-hat when you hit the snare? If I want that sound, then I play them together. Charlie did that because he wanted the sound of just the snare drum. I use that technique from time to time and I love it; especially when I play a Stones tune. Charlie should definitely get the credit for making that style of playing popular ... although it's not new necessarily. Ringo Starr is another example of a drummer using a peculiar technique. I've seen old footage of the Beetles, and watch Ringo sway his arm back and forth when playing the ride cymbal. Looks like he is painting the cymbal or using a "wax on, wax off" Karate Kid technique. I've used the technique from time to time and it does give a different sound and feel to the groove; again using it for Beetle tunes mostly. I know some of this stuff "looks" silly or dare I say retarded ... but man, it does add to the feel. Often times just having a different mindset while playing can create a totally different feel in the music. How you feel inside comes out in your music. I especially notice a difference in my playing when I'm in the middle of a set and I need to pee or if I've had too much caffeine. LOL http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif Serious though, your state of mind and attitude will come out in your playing! P.S. This thread has shifted greatly, stirring from rudiments then back again. Let's start a new thread; what do you think? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ------------------ Bart Elliott http://bartelliott.com This message has been edited by Bartman on 05-10-2001 at 05:10 PM Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clockwirk Posted May 11, 2001 Author Share Posted May 11, 2001 Originally posted by Lee Flier: Maybe you don't like it but there IS a point to it, he's not just doing it to drive you nuts. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif --Lee That's nice to know. I guess I can stop polishing my guns now. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ~clockwirk~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted June 29, 2001 Share Posted June 29, 2001 I do not agree with Lee or Bart on this account of Charlie not playing the hihat and snare simultaneously! (and you know that I am rarely one to feud!) I think he does it because he just learned it that way. I do not think anyone has ever showed him different! ... would you?1? :> ) It even appears that he struggles somewhat with the time due to this odd playing style. Anyway ... back to rudiments. Most of the great drummers that I have had the good fortune to hang with (Gregg Bissonette, Bozzio, Zoro, Billy Cobham, etc) have all known and utilize rudiments in their playing. Heck, Cobham actually marched in a Drum Corp on Long Island while he was in his late teens! I do think there is a foundation that these offer that can only help you grow as a player. That being said ... I have know some great players that *did not* know the rudiments and a double stroke roll was way beyond their grasp! I like to think that it is better to know too much rather than too little ... as long as you are kind in your sharing of that "too much" knowledge! DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted June 29, 2001 Share Posted June 29, 2001 Originally posted by djarrett: I do not agree with Lee or Bart on this account of Charlie not playing the hihat and snare simultaneously! (and you know that I am rarely one to feud!) I think he does it because he just learned it that way. I do not think anyone has ever showed him different! ... But, uhhh... he doesn't always play that way. In fact he plays that way probably less than half the time. But hey, if you want to be that way, I'll just take my drummer and go home! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidereal Posted June 29, 2001 Share Posted June 29, 2001 Sorry.... I just got here and may have missed something. Did someone actually say that the Stones would have been better off with Simon Phillips? Did I see that correctly? drummers need to start thinking less about drumming and start thinking more about music. Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted June 29, 2001 Share Posted June 29, 2001 No, No ... Lee come back ... we love you too much! I am merely saying that on the rare occasion that I saw him play live ... Charlie seemed like he was struggling with his time. Perhaps it is because he is old as snuf! I do not know. I am *NOT* taking away anything from him and his drumming. I DO NOT see the Stones ever being where they are if they had had a different drummer. It just would not have been the same. Now, Can we get this train about the importance of rudiments back on the track! Triple Ratamecue and a Double Paradiddle to ya! DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted June 29, 2001 Share Posted June 29, 2001 It's funny that this thread should come back. I was playing a solo out of the prat book last night. I hadn't picked it up in years, but as I'm plodding thru it I couldn't believe the concentration I needed to get thru section to section. And I used to play "my friend norman" up to tempo in college...unbelievable. So my hands felt wonderful after about a half hour of that. This winter I would like to do one with my feet. Good stuff MAYNARD! felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted June 29, 2001 Share Posted June 29, 2001 Sorry.... I just got here and may have missed something. Did someone actually say that the Stones would have been better off with Simon Phillips? Did I see that correctly? drummers need to start thinking less about drumming and start thinking more about music. YES, I said that and I truly believe it. I think Simon Phillips put on a clinic on how to play for the music when he did the Tommy show at Universal with "The Who". His drumming was exciting, Seasoned but most of all very musical...he brought the music to life...to me that's what it's all about. Simon would probably play "The Stones" a lot different than he played "The Who," I imagine it would be heaven...not as busy as you might think and groove for days. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidereal Posted June 29, 2001 Share Posted June 29, 2001 I apologize to everyone for keeping on this, but it annoys me when people forget the intangibles of what a band is about. It's a group of people with a shared history, a collective personality, and music that comes together with character, not precision. The Stones are what they are because of great songwriting, a storied past, and being an excellent unit. To have a "drum hero" in there loses the point, no matter how good he grooves. (btw, I find nothing wrong and everything right w/ Charlie's groove.) Never forget: The band is *always* more important than the drummer. btw, I'm not into the Stones. Don't have any of their albums and never been to one of their shows. Occasionally, I'll keep the station where it is if a Stones song is on the radio. back to the topic? Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted June 29, 2001 Share Posted June 29, 2001 Originally posted by djarrett: I am merely saying that on the rare occasion that I saw him play live ... Charlie seemed like he was struggling with his time. Perhaps it is because he is old as snuf! I do not know. Actually it's probably because he is not the time keeper in the Stones. Everybody has to follow Keith. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I am *NOT* taking away anything from him and his drumming. I DO NOT see the Stones ever being where they are if they had had a different drummer. It just would not have been the same. Boy you said that right. I think Sidereal pretty much summed it up. Sheeeesh Steve... you need to get a grip. (a traditional grip, maybe? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif) --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted June 29, 2001 Share Posted June 29, 2001 Oh well, I must be wrong http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif. Charlie Rules. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinnie c. Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 I was reading a post from Art Verdi, at the Evans board, and he said working with a metronome and keeping records of your progress can help you to improve your tecnique faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 I fully agree. felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Hey, Vinnie: Absolutely! Also, the rudiments should be just as controlled during the speed up and slow down as they are at the fast speed. I have heard many students in my years that will work hard to learn the "trick" of stick rebound to make this particular rudiment hum along at high speed, but when it comes time to start slow, speed up, and then slow again, they are lost! DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian1642605905 Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Plain and simple rudiments improve sticking!I still use them for warm up exercise.People who are simply "groove drummers"use rudiments whether they are aware of it or not.Accents,incorporating flams and the like are the foundation of innovation.It is applied a bit differently when playing a drumkit as compared to drum corp snare,but an important presence nevertheless. ian* ian* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsmusic Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 The late great Art Blakey was a pianist before he was a drummer! I say that to say this: the piano is actually a percussion instrument (Hammers Striking Strings). Both instruments have their respective rudiments. My Two Cents! Rob PS: I play keyboards and drums. ------------------ R. Guilford Butts www.mp3.com/robsmusic "Your talent is God's gift to you. What you do with it is your gift back to God"......Leo Buscaglia R. Guilford Butts www.mp3.com/robsmusic "Your talent is God's gift to you. What you do with it is your gift back to God"......Leo Buscaglia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.