Reading vs. Not Reading

[djarrett]

Hey Drum-meisters!

 

There is always a question in drum circles concerning the ability to read verses those who cannot.

What do you guys think?

Should you as a drummer be able to read music and charts?

DJ

[felix stein]

Being able to read teaches one to be a better listener/player/composer/communicator. There is noooooooo doubt in my mind. It opens worlds.

[Lee Flier]

Well, most of my favorite drummers either can't or don't read. I guess if you are a session drummer you'd have to. But if you're in a band, to me, I don't give a rip if you can read, I give a rip whether you can FEEL the music and whether you are paying attention to the song! In a rock band, if you've got good feel and you're paying attention to the song structure and the dynamics and what the other musicians are doing, you'll play the right part. I'm sure you'll play a better part than I could have written down.

 

I also feel that in order for the musicians to come up with the best possible part, they have to KNOW the song. There has to be some time spent on it. It's too easy to throw a chart in front of somebody and an hour later you've got your take. With so many of those types of drum parts going down, it's no wonder so many people say "Oh, it's easier just to use loops or a drum machine!" The real power of drumming only comes through, IMO, when the drummer is allowed to contribute something to the arrangement and to become familiar with the emotional content of the song, and really stretch out and get loose with it.

 

I know a lot of musicians benefit or grow as musicians by learning to read, and that's cool. But it would be pretty lame to say that a drummer who can read is superior to one who can't or vice versa.

 

--Lee

[djarrett]

Lee:

 

You make a great point. I would never say that reading makes a drummer better than one that cannot. I have known many drummers that read but put them with a band and they are just lost!

 

I do think that reading provides an advantage if you will, just like having another arrow in one's quill!

 

I have also known guys that do not know what a quarter note is that can just plain rip! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

I guess the drummer that can read and can groove just has a bigger advantage.

 

What I have found in my dealings in life, is it is more about being in the right place at the right time, or it is about who you know!

 

More than anything, I think the biggest advantage is a super attitude and the ability to get along well with others!

 

My thoughts,

 

DJ

[Brenton Trott]

Yeah I would have to say that it would be better to be able to read but I also agree with Lee that it really doesn't matter a whole lot. I suppose it really depends where you want to go with it.

 

I have done quite a bit of session work over the years and have never been handed anything to read. Normally it's a tape or just playing with the person live. I can read, but only at a basic level. I learnt for about two and a half years of drum lessons in the mid 80's and haven't really followed it up since then, It's one of those things I keep telling myself I will work on.

 

Of course there are positions where it would be a must, it just depends on where you want to go.

 

Brenton

[DrummerCafe]

I view music as a language; just like English or Spanish.

 

When I work with other musicians, it's so much easier if they can read since I can communicate to them using musical terms and/or notation.

 

Working with non-reading musicians is like speaking in a foreign language; you get these blank looks and the psuedo-smile like they understand, but they really don't. It seems to take forever to get the idea or thought across.

 

Frankly, I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to read music. It's a universal language that crosses cultural barriers. I don't think reading makes you a better drummer, but it DEFINITELY makes you a better musician. I view myself as a professional musician who happens to play the drums and percussion.

 

If you want to make it as a professional musician, it's imperative that you learn to read basic music notation.

 

There's not a week that goes by that I don't get a call for a gig solely because I can read. I've never lost a gig because I can read, but I know a lot of drums who have missed gigs because they can't read.

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

[felix stein]

yah, u have to groove

 

I have noticed that some local cats who are can't read so well but play ok are locked into basic sixteenths, triplets, etc. They groove but their vocabulary is limited. It's rare I see anyone where I go "what the f'k was that!?"...I like that reaction!

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Bartman:

Working with non-reading musicians is like speaking in a foreign language; you get these blank looks and the psuedo-smile like they understand, but they really don't. It seems to take forever to get the idea or thought across.

 

Frankly, I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to read music. It's a universal language that crosses cultural barriers.

 

Not really. There are a lot of cultures that don't use musical notation. I agree that MUSIC is a universal language but the way people communicate musical ideas to each other, isn't.

 

The reason it takes you forever to communicate your ideas to musicians who don't read, is because as you said they speak a different language - one that you obviously haven't learned because you learned notation. There are ways to communicate your ideas perfectly well to musicians who don't read. You would probably do better to try and learn that language than become frustrated when you use "formal" musical terms and others don't understand you.

 

In fact, I started off learning to read music and then realized that I almost never use the skill. Most musicians I work with don't care about it and frankly, I don't either. I can't sight read or anything, I just didn't pursue it because it wasn't necessary for me and it didn't work very well as a communication tool, either, seeing as most people I work with also don't read!

 

There's not a week that goes by that I don't get a call for a gig solely because I can read. I've never lost a gig because I can read, but I know a lot of drums who have missed gigs because they can't read.

 

Well obviously, you've found a niche and that's great. I agree if you're going to be a session player you will get more gigs if you can read, although I do know plenty of session players who go through most of their careers without ever having to read, depending on what they do. Playing in a band is kinda a different mentality. Usually it relies heavily on improvisation and reading just isn't necessary.

 

--Lee

[DrummerCafe]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Playing in a band is kinda a different mentality. Usually it relies heavily on improvisation and reading just isn't necessary.

 

I disagree totally. You maybe right if you are in an all original band or a group that rehearses all the time. But if you are going be a free-lance player, being able to jump in at the drop of a hat, you've got to read. When I talk about reading, I'm not necessarily talking about reading written out drum parts. Reading rhythm charts or lead sheets is a big thing if you want to get calls to sub. If you want to play in cover bands or play in bars, I can see why reading may not be of interest. Another point is that reading opens the mind to rhythmic, harmonic and melodic understandings. Just like if a drummer can play some piano, he/she will have a better understanding of music and what is going on while they are playing the drums. Having some basic reading skills helps visualize what you want to play. You don't have to rely solely on memory, but can notate what you play ... making it possible to quickly remember what you played or need to play for a particular song.

 

Having taught for over 20 years, I can tell you that it's rather frustrating trying to teach someone who doesn't know the rudiments of music. Not knowing what a quarter note is, etc. I've taught music theory at the college level ... so I have no problem explaining or teaching the subject to newbies, but many don't want to learn. Modern Drummer magazine even demonstrates the advantage of reading. You can read a transcription of a particular song or learn some new grooves from your favorite drummer, just by reading the ink on the page.

 

 

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Not really. There are a lot of cultures that don't use musical notation. I agree that MUSIC is a universal language but the way people communicate musical ideas to each other, isn't.

 

I beg to differ on this. Music notation IS a universal language. Almost every western influenced culture has adopted it and uses it. Exceptions would be countries like India, who has an extensive verbal communication, a language used specifically for communicating classical compositions to fellow performers or students. But "Dha ge te te" means absolutely nothing to you unless you have studied North India music.

 

West African is another example of a culture that uses it's own verbal form of communication. Although it isn't as elaborate as North of South India, it makes use of syllables ... "Ghun go-do pa-ta" ... which again would mean nothing to you unless you have studied the music of Ghana or if you lived there.

 

My point is that the aforementioned cultures have a "notation" but it is not written ... it's verbal. It's a standard way for them to communicate their music compositions so that others can play it just as they were intended. Western Civilization has adopted a notation system which, having been around for hundreds of years, has in the last few decades become the standard for instructional books and schools of higher learning.

 

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

The reason it takes you forever to communicate your ideas to musicians who don't read, is because as you said they speak a different language - one that you obviously haven't learned because you learned notation. There are ways to communicate your ideas perfectly well to musicians who don't read. You would probably do better to try and learn that language than become frustrated when you use "formal" musical terms and others don't understand you.

 

 

Why would I want to spend time learning a "language" that is not standard? Basic music notation is so simple it's ridiculous. You mentioned that there are ways to communicate to "non-reading" musicians; what would that be? Every musician is different; there is no standard communication for non-reading musicians. I can sing the drum groove that I want someone to play ... that would be a good attempt ... it isn't exactly the quickest way. How do you tell a non-reading person what chord to play? Play an A7(b9). If I say the chord, but they don't even know where the "A" is on the piano or guitar, how can they figure it out. I have to walk over to the piano and play it for them? Even if you say there is a way to communicate to these musicians, there's no standard. I'd be learning a new way to communicate with each player; every band would be different. If they can't read and you tell them to play the five chord, hold if for 6 beats ... how can they do that without first hearing it? What's a five chord? What is the beat? Eighth notes that the drummer is playing on the hi-hat OR the pulses that I'm feeling when I tap my foot? If you know of some standard form of communication to non-reading musicians I would LOVE to learn so I can begin using it with every musician I work with. You say that I would use "formal music terms" ... what would that be? Just because someone doesn't understand it or know what it means makes it formal? Quarter notes and 4/4 are BASIC music terms ... not "formal" music terms.

 

In Nashville, they have their own system. Can you read the Nashville notation? If you have never played in Nashville or worked with someone who uses that type of notation system, you couldn't play the gig. Nashville is one of the leading producers of music in the country. I don't know of them using any standard notation for non-reading musicians. The Nashville system is definitely a simplified music notation which allows the musicians to quickly pick-up the tune and perform it. No matter what key the artist wants to play it in, the Nashville system makes it easy for everyone involved. Although it's a simplified notation ... the musicians are STILL READING!!! They have established a standard.

 

I know of only three ways to communicate music thoughts: verbally sing the melody/rhythm, perform it, or notate it. Writing it out and being able to read it seems to be the best since there is a standard. The notated music can be filed away and kept for years to come. Singing or performing the parts I want another musician to play doesn't guarantee me that they will remember it after they leave the rehearsal or gig. If you don't write it down ... it's forgotten. I know there are exceptions, but the majority of the professional musicians (meaning they make their living solely from music) can read at least a little bit.

 

To me, reading music is part of being a musician. Reading, writing, playing ... it's all part of music.

 

People that live in the United States who can not read or write English (or their native language) are considered illiterate. They can usually speak English, but can't write it or read it. They have a difficult time in society because our cultural relies heavily on reading and writing English (with Spanish soon to follow). Music is just like English. In fact, many countries require students to learn English as their second language. So what about the language of Music.

 

Music notation is really very simple ... it's just math. Why someone wouldn't want to learn the basics is beyond me. Why a professional musician would not want to be able to read astounds me.

 

Obviously, these are my opinions; take it for what it's worth. The only musicians I know that don't read music are the ones that have day jobs. I've known and worked with some great players who can't read music. They've been lucky to find a niche and place for themselves. But I also know a great bass player who got kicked off a recording session because he couldn't follow a basic rhythm chart. The guy is an incredible player ... but he's desperate to find session work because the word is out that he can't read.

 

If you are willing to take that kind of risk, have at it ... and good luck. Sure, there are sessions that don't require you to read ... but it only takes ONE time to ruin your reputation ... and a life time to build a good one. I was a Boy Scout and they taught me one thing I'll never forget, still holding true today ... BE PREPARED!!!

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

[Lee Flier]

I disagree totally. You maybe right if you are in an all original band or a group that rehearses all the time.

 

That's what I'm talking about. Although I was in lots of cover bands too, and none required anyone to read. Everybody knew the songs already or the bandleader (which was sometimes me) would give everybody a tape of the songs and they'd go home and learn any that they didn't know.

 

But if you are going be a free-lance player, being able to jump in at the drop of a hat, you've got to read.

 

I already acknowledged in my previous posts that this is true, even though I know people who are even exceptions to that.

 

When I talk about reading, I'm not necessarily talking about reading written out drum parts. Reading rhythm charts or lead sheets is a big thing if you want to get calls to sub.

 

I think most even untrained musicians can read a chord chart. I assumed when Dendy asked the question that he meant reading formally notated parts.

 

Having some basic reading skills helps visualize what you want to play. You don't have to rely solely on memory, but can notate what you play ... making it possible to quickly remember what you played or need to play for a particular song.

 

I'd rather rely on memory. I find that using memory and repetition helps me play better than reading does, and I'm not alone. Even when I was a kid and I read music, I used to drive my mom crazy at the piano because I would only use the sheet music to pick out a few bars at a time and repeat them until I had them memorized. I never learned to read quickly. The whole point, to me, was to memorize the music and throw the chart away. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Modern Drummer magazine even demonstrates the advantage of reading. You can read a transcription of a particular song or learn some new grooves from your favorite drummer, just by reading the ink on the page.

 

Again, I find it a lot easier to put the record on and play with it than try to read a transcription. Not only that, but most transcriptions of rock songs are wrong. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

I beg to differ on this. Music notation IS a universal language. Almost every western influenced culture has adopted it and uses it. Exceptions would be countries like India, who has an extensive verbal communication, a language used specifically for communicating classical compositions to fellow performers or students. But "Dha ge te te" means absolutely nothing to you unless you have studied North India music.

 

West African is another example of a culture that uses it's own verbal form of communication. Although it isn't as elaborate as North of South India, it makes use of syllables ... "Ghun go-do pa-ta" ... which again would mean nothing to you unless you have studied the music of Ghana or if you lived there.

 

Yes, and I think the system of using verbal communication is superior for my purposes. There is a reason why African and Indian musicians use verbal "notation" even though they have written language. They feel that verbal and mnemonic techniques are superior for communicating music, while written language is superior for communicating words, and I agree. It's too bad we don't have a system like that in the West, but some people compensate for that in other ways.

 

Why would I want to spend time learning a "language" that is not standard? Basic music notation is so simple it's ridiculous.

 

I agree it's not difficult to learn, but like anything else it takes a lot of repeated use for it to become second nature. In my case, the skill became moldy from disuse. In the circumstances I prefer to work, I just haven't needed it; ergo I can't really do it.

 

I can sing the drum groove that I want someone to play ... that would be a good attempt ... it isn't exactly the quickest way.

 

It's quick to me. I just bang it out on my guitar or a wall. I also don't want the drummer to feel that he's "stuck" with the part I tell him to play. That is the biggest weakness to me of written music... it fosters a sense of finality. "That's how it's written, so that's how it is." Music is temporal and each time you play the same piece it is (hopefully) a little different. Of course, classical music isn't that way, and things like film scores. But playing those kinds of things doesn't interest me.

 

How do you tell a non-reading person what chord to play? Play an A7(b9). If I say the chord, but they don't even know where the "A" is on the piano or guitar, how can they figure it out.

 

As I said earlier, most musicians who don't read still know what basic chords are and they know what a beat is. But even the ones who don't, again, if you're in a band and somebody just starts playing, people can follow along by hearing it.

 

It's kind of weird, this assumption that just because someone can't sight read or read notation, or hasn't taken lessons in reading which "should" give you a certain set of skills, they don't know ANYTHING about music. If you work with other people you generally pick things up along the way!

 

I know of only three ways to communicate music thoughts: verbally sing the melody/rhythm, perform it, or notate it. Writing it out and being able to read it seems to be the best since there is a standard.

 

I'm not real sure why it being a "standard" makes it best. I don't find that singing or playing a part to show it to someone else is in any way inferior to writing it down, unless you're talking about orchestral parts, and I agree that for those you need to read. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

The notated music can be filed away and kept for years to come. Singing or performing the parts I want another musician to play doesn't guarantee me that they will remember it after they leave the rehearsal or gig. If you don't write it down ... it's forgotten.

 

Yeah, because in my opinion not enough time was spent on the song. To be honest, I dislike the whole "professional" way of working, where people show up and are given a chart and they nail it in a couple of takes and never get a chance to really get inside of it. To me, if you can't play a song from memory you haven't lived with it long enough. Also, sometimes the "accidental" variations that people play turn out to be better than what the writer had in mind. I like for music to be fluid and evolve constantly, not stay static over time.

 

Again these are just my personal values and I'm not trying to make up rules for everyone. These are values that work for me and for a vast number of other musicians who play in bands. There IS a good reason why many musicians "rebel" against the notion of musical notation.

 

I know there are exceptions, but the majority of the professional musicians (meaning they make their living solely from music) can read at least a little bit.

 

Yeah, most people learn what they need to know in order to do their job. That is my point. If that means learning what an "A" chord is, a good musician usually knows that. If it means reading a chord chart, they learn. If something is totally useless to a particular musician, they may never learn it. If all they want to do is play in bands where reading is not necessary, they may never learn much of anything about it. It's just a different method of learning, on a "need to know" basis rather than a "formal instruction" basis. But then, judging by some of the other arguments I've got into on these forums the past few days, lots of people don't understand that either. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Music is just like English. In fact, many countries require students to learn English as their second language. So what about the language of Music.

 

Again, not everyone feels that all music is served best as a written language. I personally have a major gift for language. Yet interestingly, even though I am a musician, written musical notation has never been much use to me or made much sense. Other methods I've used for learning music and communicating it to others, have worked better for me.

 

Obviously, these are my opinions; take it for what it's worth. The only musicians I know that don't read music are the ones that have day jobs.

 

When I was making my living as a gigging musician I didn't have a "day job". I have one now because it's more important to me to play the music I love than to say I make my living only from music. What that ends up to mean, as I found out, is that you have to take a lot of gigs that you hate, just to pay the bills. Showing up at a session, playing from a chart, and going home would just kill the joy of playing for me. I'd rather learn computer programming languages than musical notation. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif And I'm not just some weird eccentric in that regard; there are obviously a lot of others who agree with me. Rather than accept that maybe Western written notation might fall a little short in its ability to serve different kinds of music and musicians, those who have learned it tend to just belittle those who haven't, or at the very least not understand why a perfectly competent player never "bothered" to learn it. Here's a clue; it's not that we haven't "bothered". Just think about that for a bit. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

--Lee

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 05-03-2001 at 10:28 AM

[DrummerCafe]

I'm not belittling anyone; I'm defending my position. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

 

Time is money. Taking the time for someone to "get inside the song" costs the client money if you are in the studio. The same holds true with any gig that might through you a curve and ask you to read a chart ... unexpectedly.

 

Being able to walk in and nail a tune because one can read is a beautiful thing to me. Practicing the tune over and over again to "get inside" it is a great thing I TOTALLY agree. But there's not always time for that unless

you are in a cover band and are expected to know the material ahead of time.

 

When I play with cover bands, I make a little cheat sheets with the basic groove, tempo markings, and any figures that are important enough that I need to get consistantly. Doing this allows me to play in a WIDE variety of bands ... and not have to spend a solid month of practicing at home ... trying to memorize every nuance of the tune. I nail the tune and can use the gig and playing every night to memorize the tune and get inside it. If I don't play with the band for months, I can pick right up again, using my "cheat sheets" to re-familarize myself with the tunes. I usually only need to glance at the notes and memory kicks in. I'd starve at home trying to put the time in to learn (by memory) every song I've played over the years; most bands don't pay for home practice time.

 

I'm currently playing drums at several different churches on a regular basis. Every single one of them require the musicians to be able to read. We show up 90 minutes before the service and read the charts down; usually listening to the original recording if it's available. We make notes on our charts and we are ready to go. I'm happy to say that music is tight and sounds as good as the original recordings ... if not better (considering that we are playing it live and not in the studio). There's not time to learn everything by memory. I get paid good money to be able to do what I do. It's not a "niche" ... it's the real world. On the other hand, there is a great guitar player that plays at one of these churches. He doesn't read and has to get the recording of the music a week in advance so he can learn it. I've worked with this guy in several cover bands ... and he's fantastic. But unless he already knows the tune, he can't just jump in and play since he can't read. He has a great set of ears and can improvise with the best ... but that only takes him so far. This guy NEVER gets studio work because it takes him too long to learn the tune in the studio.

 

I used to play in a cover band with Bill Tillman, formerly with Blood, Sweat and Tears. We learned 90% of the dance tunes by practicing at home and listening to original recordings. Sometimes, rehearsal time was spent learning tunes; in most cases, there was a lead sheet or rhythm chart for anyone that needed it. We weren't using the notation on stage, but used it for learning new tunes quickly and getting through the form of the song. We had guest singers sit in from time to time, especially if was for a corporate party. They could just bring their charts, pass it out to the band, and BOOM ... we nailed the tune. Sure most of us knew the tune, but this may have been a different arrangement or in a different key. Reading was VERY valuable tool to have when needed ... even though it was used on a regular basis.

 

DJ started this whole thread with the question:

Should you as a drummer be able to read music and charts?

 

In my opinion the answer is a resounding YES!!!

 

Sure, you can go through life never reading a lick of music; you might even be able to make music your full-time profession. Just like the person who lives in America and can't read or write English ... they can live healthy, fulfilling lives. But I would say to both, you are missing out on a lot.

 

Do I think musicians who don't read are below me? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I could name dozens of drummers/percussionist who could play me under the table and they don't read a note.

 

Do I think musicians who don't read are missing out and by default limit themselves, their talents, and full potential in live? YES YES YES

 

There's no need for arrogance from the musician who reads; looking down on those who don't. There's also no need for arrogance from the musician who doesn't read; thinking that he is better than trained musicians because he does everything naturally.

 

So encourage everyone; if you don't read music ... don't feel bad or shy away from it. It's a beautiful thing to be able to read music notation; just like it's a beautiful thing to be able to hear something and play it back from memory. My goal in life has always been to merge the best from both worlds: To read with the technique of a skilled classical musician, and to play with the ear of a jazz musician ... expressing on my instrument every thought and idea. For most of us, both take practice and devoted time to fully develop.

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

[felix stein]

Wow, Lee and Bartman both have some great points. I like Lee's point about being a pro musician and having to play crap, but on the same token it is a good idea to be able to play in a variety of situations quickly and effectively if you wanna be a pro. And that is where the reading comes in.

 

Since my style is extremely Western I can't relate to the "phun with phonics" school of learning beats, patterns, whatever. And for the most part, I don't believe that ones' ear is good enough to pick up really complicated drumming, or should I say pick it up quickly.

 

I would much rather pick up a transcription instead of laboring over a boombox with earphones strapped to my head. And even if it's a little wrong, who cares? What is really cool is when the transcriptions are supplimented with an audio example...then one can really cop the feel.

 

Now, I play in an original band and we have made complicated as hell charts (for me). WE had to. God, it was hard enough with the frigging chart. But the thing I love most about reading is being able to WRITE music. I can write down an ostanato pattern or any sorta pattern I want to play and then compose something over top of it that I could never think of on the spot. I would have time to work out the sticking and mentally make my patterns go/shift whatever. I could introduce themes and my phrasing could be impeccable. That is what I love about it, being able to create a gem. But to do it with feel music needs to be committed to memory (for me). Now a great master such as Liszt (piano) could sight read with incredible expression. I'm sure there are drummers out there who can as well (albeit few)...I remember at PIT Tim Pederson could just shred some of the toughest passages- Ralph Humphrey could do the same if not better.

That is called TALENT...everyone has different degrees of it. To be able to play great takes talent, to be able to read AND play great takes more talent...sorry, God gives more to some than others...I don't think they have found a music gene yet have they? So I'll stick with the G on this one.

 

Writing music makes me capable (theoretically) of things I can't do. It also takes the mystery out of playing the "tough" stuff. Ok back to werk.

[Steve LeBlanc]

I think reading can only help a musician and definitly won't hurt a musician, whether you're a drummer, pianist, guitarist, whatever.

 

If you can read but don't have any ear training to go with it you'll be very limited.

 

A musician that hasn't done any work to improve their ears is extremely limited...a big part of training your ears is learning to hear intervals and rhythmic patterns with an understanding of what they tell you about the music you're playing. So until you have a working knowledge of the Circle of Fifths/Fourths, all intervals, Sol, 4/4, 6/8, 7/8 etc...there are only going to be a few types of music you can play well.

 

If you're content to play Rock n Roll, Funk, Country and Blues then you don't need much training. However, I used to play in a couple of Top 40 country bands, I didn't ever know the songs before playing them...I doubt I could have done this without knowing theory.

 

Just my opinion.

 

http://www.jamfree.com

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 05-03-2001 at 02:25 PM

[djarrett]

What do some of you new guys think?

DJ

[Drumlooney]

Hey DJ for some strange reason I feel obligated to reply when you ask the new guys to reply, LOL. I feel that in today's competitive market a drummer should have atleast basic reading skills, that's why I had to learn to read, does it make me a better drummer? No, as a matter of fact I feel that I've lost creativity b/c of it, but if I had to choose between two different cat's who both had groove, can stay in the pocket and are both equally as talented but one could read and the other one could'nt? I would have to give the edge to the guy who could read, not b/c he's a better drummer but b/c he gives me more options. Oh and in the NYC latin scene reading is a must, these young guys coming up all read, and read well, they will take your gig in a minute!

 

My two pennies!!

[Tedly Nightshade]

I just attended a concert where the tabla players alternated solos in spoken "dha dhirigita dha" type "notation". The audience was enthralled. Try that with western notation.

Read some ethnomusicology transcriptions of African drumming. I've often seen these where a beat was transcribed three different ways, in 4/4, 3/4, and 12/8, and the transcriber noted that none of these was accurate, but between the three of them you could get an idea.

In cuban and latin music there IS no "one"- try writing down that shit some time, it can be done, but not in a way that is true to the original conception of cyclical nonmetric spiral time.

I can read and write music, transpose for alto sax, whatever, I've written scores for percussion, prepared piano, whatever. I'm here to tell you that western rhythmic notation is a pain in the ass, and is largely unnecessary now that we can record. I could spend ten minutes writing a pattern for you, or I could just sing it to you and you'd get it right away, if you were to get it at all.

Nonetheless reading and writing is an invaluable tool every now and then when trying to figure out what limb does what exactly when for a polyrhythmic part or something that is hanging you up. At that point the fastest route is to figure it out on paper, and it's a shame to insist on doing it the hard way (when it becomes the hard way) without reference to notation.

That said, it's been some years since I had to do that, but I'm sure it will come up again when I have to sing and drum some confusing parts at once. Then I'll be able to see exactly where everything lines up (this is assuming, BIG assumption, that you can write music well as well as read, or no clarity is likely to result: things like the beats are equidistant, the measure is spacious and uncrowded, etc.).

 

Yes, to be everything to everybody and fully marketable man-for-all-sessions you ought to be able to sight read and sight sing like a motherfu(#=r, but these guys are very very rarely doing justice to the music or their talents. Watch late night TV for a bunch of drummers who can read, so they got the gig even though they slaughter the music.

Every one of us has unique and godgiven talents of our own, and this whole interchangeablility thing is wasting almost all of that individuality.

Check out Johnny Hodges- one of the by far greatest saxophone players of all time, he could bend the rules of tonality, pitch, rhythm, phrasing, in the most avant garde way possible, all while knocking the ladies (me too) absolutely dead, they didn't know anything but that they were in love and wanted to cry. He played with Ellington for over forty years, and Ellington had the taste and class to take advantage of Hodges' own unique approach and talents, not to stick sheet music in front of him and get peeved when Hodges couldn't read it.

Hodges would have failed junior high school band, he would have failed junior high school, he would have been laughed at in almost any other pro swing band, he never would have gotten into Berklee, but he was the absolute greatest of all time at what he did.

He was very awkward when people (hundreds of thousands of people) wanted autographs-

The man couldn't sign his own name.

Ted

[Jazzman]

With all due respect to all of you..........I can't read music, and play by ear. I'm the guy you don't understand why a drummer like myself will not want to learn how to read drum notation.

 

I produce a variety of Jazz and other genres in my studio. Many folks that I have come in contact with and have gone in and out of the studio were very happy with the total outcome of my productions for their demos, radio spots, etc. They didn't care if I can read music or not. They wanted that final product that represents their thoughts.

 

I've had a pair of drum sticks in my hand since 1957. The ONLY benifit that I have now is I own the studio I play in, and practice until I get what I want from real drums or in programing drum machines. I play bass, 6-string guitar, and keys. I've had other professional musicians come in the studio and tell me that I shouldn't know how to play those complicated Jazz cords like I do, or the bass, or guitar for that matter. I don't play lead guitar parts very good. I'm still learning by ear.

 

When I play I can hear all aspects of the song that I'm producing for me or others. I think it is really due to being able to play by ear. I can hear a song and repeat it by ear if I have to. I've been tuned in with R&B, all types of Jazz, Hip Hop, Soul, Rock even polka if I have to.

 

I realy don't think that some of you understand that there are some of us that really have an EAR for music, period. I had an instructor try to teach me some drums patterns once....paradiddle....etc when I was 14. I hung in there for one month to see what I could learn from this 45 year old. As soon as I showed up for the first lession, had the sticks in my hand, he asked me if I had played drums before? I guess I supprised him on my knoweldge, he didn't know I had been practicing for 6 years before on pie pans, books, bongos....you name it I hit it except the HOLY BIBLE!

 

I totally agree that a professional drummer that spends the time learning the proper way to play is very important in the demands of today. I probably would be better off learning too, but I will not. What about those 4 guys that beat on PVC pipe for the Pentinum commercials!! For me it would stiffle my ability to improvise in the free form and expression that music is made of......and that is because my brain is not trained or built with that type of decipline. I'm the guy that comes up with the tunes that people want to immatate, or at least try to.

 

All of you make very good points and good horse sense...I'm really happy for all of you that can read music do it well. Believe me I would be considering it now if the demand was there for me too.

 

My only thought is I consider myself as a regular drummer, and I feel a pretty good one at that. Yes it is true to say that it will take me longer to get there but I will. I'm no Steve Gadd, but I can get the point across in my compositions for my works as well as others requiring it. My talents are spread thin out arround a lot of instruments not just one, as well as learning about sound, mixing, production, graphics, etc for my business as well as the bull-crap in the political arena too.

 

But that is what makes MY SOUND different than others. I don't have a lot of gear, but don't need it for the purpose intended.

 

I love music, can't stand being without it. As a matter of fact my day job interfers with it. Two boys in college, my wifes work as well as mine eat up the time every single day.

 

Bart, DJ, Lee, Brenton, Felix, Steve, Drumlooney, Ted, my humble opinions only. You guys don't know me , my music, my sound, my gut knoweldge, my own experiences in the business, as well as I really don't know yours either . However, just consider that some of us folks understand the importance of drum notation and the ability to read it. We (the non readers), also respect those that can't read drum notation, and respect those that can only play Rock music and get lost in playing Jazz. I've seen drummers count like hell aloud, and sound like a drum machine too. Remember we(the non readers) can observe screw-ups too in a "professional"

 

It is all in what all of us make of it, our approach to our love of music and not just to know who is a faster drummer than someone else, or that someone knows how to read drum notation better than someone else.

 

Even the new drummer that can't play worth a damn should be respected enough and encouraged enough to keep the faith to practice some more. I myself cannot stand people that are pompus, self centered, bragarts, look down on others less fortunate than others. This is not my character, my professional attitude, or what I preach to others either. And I guess when you folks get older you'll understand too.

 

I plan on learning from others, and hope that the trail I go on provides others with a good laugh, a good music experience, and respect for those of us that have been doing this the hard way but feel good about it.

 

My defense from the guy out in left field, but gets the out.....

 

Peace and love to all of you.....the world is better with the language of music, no matter how it was achieved.

 

Jazzman

[Tedly Nightshade]

Funny you should say that, Jazzman. I'm also a multi-instrumentalist, and I don't have the chops I would have if I'd played all through school and all that. But I have way more tone, balance, subtlety, and originality going on than 99.9% of drummers (not saying much).

A lot of people are disappointed when they come around looking for a drummer to put in the generic drummer slot in their band and I don't fit. Others are delighted that my approach is so unusual, and that I am likely to play any number of other instruments.

Ringo Starr had phenomenal class and taste as a drummer. Very very few drummers are down with the song like that. More drum chops wouldn't have helped the Beatles much, and Get Back does all the cooking that is called for. The drum texture and pulse makes the song. The man was musical.

I play a whole lot of other stuff than that, but being on the page with the song is most critical, and very few drummers are aware of the song (or other composition) and it's demands. You don't hear a lot of that, but it's great when you do.

Still I love music way to much not to want to know anything there is to learn, reading included.

Ted

[djarrett]

Hey, Jazzman:

I think the point of the earlier comments was that to be a completely "well-rounded" player that it is best if you know how to read. I too have known many great drummers that cannot read.

There are alot of times that I prefer to play by ear rather than interpret the lame chart written by someone that has no clue what really would sound good for the song.

 

Hope this clarifys the point.

DJ

[Steve LeBlanc]

Bart, DJ, Lee, Brenton, Felix, Steve, Drumlooney, Ted, my humble opinions only. You guys don't know me , my music, my sound, my gut knoweldge, my own experiences in the business, as well as I really don't know yours either . However, just consider that some of us folks understand the importance of drum notation and the ability to read it. We (the non readers), also respect those that can't read drum notation, and respect those that can only play Rock music and get lost in playing Jazz. I've seen drummers count like hell aloud, and sound like a drum machine too. Remember we(the non readers) can observe screw-ups too in a "professional"

JazzMan...you're totally right...my comments above were the kind of stuff I'd say to a young guy getting started. My Dad didn't read music, I think it limited him in some ways but in others it made him better...regardless he was a great musician and will always have my full respect.

[Drumlooney]

Jazzman, I totally understand your point, regardless of the fact that I can read (not as great as others) I still consider myself a play by ear guy, like I said in my previous post reading to me kills creativity, I much rather play what I feel or hear than what some chart says, but for example, I got called to fill in for a friend tonight, I don't know their music, I will have to depend on the charts, I hate that but it comes with the gig, and again a lot of great drummers are not readers, a lot of readers are not great drummers.

 

My two pennies!!

[Christopher]

Lurn tu reed. Lurn tu play by eer. Iz not a choiz!

[Steve LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Christopher:

Lurn tu reed. Lurn tu play by eer. Iz not a choiz!

HAHAHA...see if you never learned to read English we'd all have a lot of trouble communicating around here. we could use pictures I suppose...this is what I'm thinking about most of the time:

 

http://i.cnn.net/si/features/2001/swimsuit/gallery/elsa/elsa_1.jpg

 

Wass on ur mynd?

 

 

Music is different but not too much...if you want to have really complete musical conversations with a musician you've never played with before...knowing how to read can be a big help.

 

hmmm:)

[djarrett]

Hey, Steve:

That is funny ... that you can read my mind from so many miles away!

 

DJ

[docdrums69]

Originally posted by djarrett:

Hey Drum-meisters!

 

There is always a question in drum circles concerning the ability to read verses those who cannot.

What do you guys think?

Should you as a drummer be able to read music and charts?

DJ

Hi!

I think reading music is a very useful tool for a musician. It enables her/him to understand in a deeper way what's playing, and the relationship with other instrument parts.

Also, without reading skills, forget about working in a recording studio environment.

And what's better... It's no difficult at all.

Bye!

[djarrett]

Hey, Drumdoc69,

Welcome to you in Spain.

Tell your drumming freinds there all about us!

THanks,

DJ

[rlhubley]

Simply put, reading is one more tool to toss into the tool box. It's a rather easy tool to posess and maintain ability with. (BTW, i am speaking of BASIC reading) Some guys don't want to Latin, some choose not learn rock, many(unfortunately IMHO) choose not to learn reading.

 

I personally feel that reading is applicable to most styles and most situations for the western drummer, even if they do not actually use a chart for said gig. I think it is one of the most important tools for any musician to have. Drummers need: a kit, good ears, coordination, some level of technique, the ability to provide the foundation of the groove, and the ability to support the artist(s) he/she is working for. In many situations, the songwriter/producer/bandleader has a preconceived idea of what the basic drum part should be. It is quite difficult to translate their off-beat guitar banging and spoken jibberish. If both parties can use standard musical terms and/or notation, this process is much easier.

[sidereal]

Interesting thoughts. I missed this thread first time around.

 

Seems there's pretty wide consensus that reading can't hurt you, that it adds to your versatility, but that it's not absolutely necessary to be successful.

 

I can read and write a bit, but I'd have to study a chart for a little while to get a complex, syncopated groove down. (dotted notes get me every time! )

 

I could get better at reading if I worked at it more. But that's the whole thing for me: When I think about what I want to improve upon as a drummer, and how I want to spend my valuable time, reading always falls to the bottom of the list. Time is a precious resource these days, and I'd rather spend it improving in other ways, or creating new grooves, or getting my Pro Tools chops faster. We all choose to spend our time in different ways. In my experience, I see more rewards for my time spent by doing things other than reading.

 

A related issue, and something that was touched on earlier, is that the brain works differently for different people. For some, math is easy. For me it's not. I'm an audible/visual/sensual person. I'm not good with abstract things like math. This is why my reading is a bit slower than others who might spend equal time on it. I'm better with music when I hear it and feel it than when I see it down on paper. So again, I'm working to my natural strengths as a human being because the time I spend in other areas is better spent than the time I spend in areas that don't come naturally to me.

[Tedly Nightshade]

"It is quite difficult to translate their off-beat guitar banging and spoken jibberish. If both parties can use standard musical terms and/or notation, this process is much easier. "

 

It's worth noting that what's standard today evolved from what was needed. That's why jazz drum charts seldom have specific patterns written, and nobody tries to notate swung eighths in truly standard western notation (classical) for very long. It's too much work for too little gain, so people write straight eighths and then interpret them as swinging.

I also think it's too much to hope for the guitarist to write an intelligible drum chart. Percussion notation is the bleeding edge of classical notation and classical percussionists expect to see a lot of confusing and often contradictory stuff. In the end it's basically up to their taste and knowledge of the repetoire and ability to guage what the conductor wants, which may have little to do with the score.

 

!!!!

A call for a spoken drum language for non-reading musicians, or reading ones who appreciate not having to grub around for pen and paper to quickly transmit an idea.

It's necessary most times to go over the cymbal parts (tss, t-k-tss) and the snare and bass drum parts (doom doom ka-dum ka-dum) seperately, but most of the time the real pattern is the snare and bass and the cymbals can be left to the drummer, who knows more about what's appropriate anyway.

 

One advantage of writing (which is an art known well to only one in a thousand good readers) is that it focuses ideas and forces specific choices, a disadvantage is that it insists on spelling out in detail what is best left to the player, who hopefully has an understanding of their art, and something to contribute. Jazz charts take a middle road.

Ted