classic rock without a singer?

[Ross Brown]

In what seems like my perpetual quest to find a singer that can sing I began a wonderin whether or not a classic rock/blues band could get gigs and draw a crowd playing without a singer.

 

Just a thought Would be different, but could we chart the songs in a way to make them interesting and acceptable to the people listening???

 

Currently have a group of good musicians. The music sounds great, but finding a singer has proven difficult. This might help in our quest to find one

 

Just a thought, maybe silly, but I wonder if anyone has tried this, with this type of music

[ibescotty]

Classic rock can be tough for singers. The average male voice is baritone and the 70's and 80's have a lot of tenor's and screechers out there. You can find someone that can sing but it is rare to find someone that can sing everything and anything because every voice is different. It's a muscle and not exactly like hitting the right note on the fret board. Having been pressed into service as a singer recently I am finding lots of challenges with it. I'm never off key and though I'm a Baritone I've got a pretty good range. What I find hard is emulating every singer in the songs that the band chooses. Sometimes it is just not there. If you find someone who can sing and has presence you might have to pick songs that fit their voice. Being pressed into service I'm getting that and the shows have been awesome. Just trying to help you deal with a crazy rock star vocalist. There are those out there with the iron vocal chords and can sing ACDC to Jim Morrison though. Only a few in this area.

 

As for instrumental classic rock it could work but I think you'd need a lead instrument to carry the melodies somehow. Also would depend on the song selection. Plenty of classic rock instrumentals to pick from.

[Gruuve]

Ross...this might be a silly thought (or not), but the thing that immediately came to mind to me was to get a sax player. Everybody likes the sax, and it would be a great instrument to do the vocal melodies on.

 

Dave

[sduross]

I don't mean to be a downer - and more than likely I'm wrong here - but I don't see a singer-free classic rock band getting a lot of gigs. It would be a cool "musician's" band, and I like the idea of a sax player, but I suspect it wouldn't have wide appeal to the vast majority of your audience that really doesn't know the first thing about music and after a few songs are wondering, "Where's the singer?"

 

It certainly is tough to find a good singer - a good singer makes or breaks a band. And because they are so rare, unfortunately, they generally know that and can be difficult to get along with. Can't live with 'em, ...

[Bottomgottem]

People do love a sax player. My regular R&B band staffs one. The crowd loves him. He's an eccentric bas**rd, but our crowds dig him.

 

After thinking this over, I believe that a sax covering the vocal parts on classic rock songs is marketable. Everyone already knows the words to those songs and could sing along at will. The rowdier the crowd, the better. The saxist would have to put a lot into it and be a front man, but it could be done.

 

I'd go see it. But, perhaps proving sdross' point, I am a musician.

[alexclaber]

I can't see it working - classic rock songs are all about the vocals and the lyrics are a big part of that.

 

Finding a singer that can handle Robert Plant to Jim Morrison seems near impossible - don't be afraid to do the songs your own way and change the key (and/or tempo/feel if it works better like that).

 

And if you do that, then surely between the existing musicians in the band you can cover the vocals?

 

Alex

[Brocko777]

CAC is pretty much right on the mark.

Finding a vocalist is tough but if you rearrange the tunes to fit your current line-up.. drop songs then add new (or different) tunes. Keep the classics that people will yell out. Throw them in a blender to give a new take on it and then you'll be the shizz-nit.

 

If you try the no-vox call the band LARYNGITIS.

 

Some sort of coffee shop type setting would be the only way I think that it could be pulled off without the vox. (Where the band is less in the foreground.

 

Brocko

[Phil W]

Some sort of coffee shop type setting would be the only way I think that it could be pulled off without the vox.

Yeah, it could work in that setting provided the instrumentals are good enough.

I think Alex is right though; I guess that the reason people want to hear classic rock covers want to hear the vocals too, otherwise you'd play something else.

Might be fun though!

 

What about publicising a show as a rock idol type thing, auditioning hopefuls. You might draw a crowd for that considering how TV is nowadays! Or a live karaoke band (I did a gig like that once and charged people to sing with us (for charity). That was fairly painful though, sorry.

[Brocko777]

Originally posted by Phil W:

What about publicising a show as a rock idol type thing, auditioning hopefuls. You might draw a crowd for that considering hiw TV is nowadays!

Get a local public access show started with you guys looking for a singer.. try to get promotions stuff.. local NEWS stations, (they should love that!) radio involved. Radio stations should eat that type of thing up.

 

Great Idea Phil!

 

Brocko

[Ross Brown]

I am listening and thinking. Thanks for brainstorming with me. I like the concept of getting news stations/radio station involved or something along that line...hummmm

[SteveC]

Originally posted by C. Alexander Claber:

don't be afraid to do the songs your own way

 

Alex

That's what we do. While we stick pretty close to the original, we always put our own "stamp" on them.

 

I used to feel the opposite way. I covered bass lines note-for-note and encouraged others to do the same. After playing with people who like to experiment a bit I have changed my mind.

 

People want to hear the tunes covered well, but they also like when you do "your thing" to them. I still make sure to play the "signature licks" but the rest of the tune will get played in my style.

[The Bear Jew]

Punk Rock Karaoke

 

Hey, if they did it with punk rock, why couldn't you do it with classic rock?

 

BTW, it worked here in the US, too.

[Ross Brown]

 

I e mailed my idea to the rest of the band. No response from any of them. Either they were blown away by such an incredibly good idea or they are looking for another bassist.

 

We'll see. We practice on fridays, I'll bring it up then. Probably not a good way to operate but it may be a good way to find (good) singers eventually. I am also heading out to kayeoke nights in the area to recruit auditioners.

[Eric VB]

Having tried the classic rock band thing for quite some time, I can attest that finding a good singer for that entire genre is impossible.

 

If you are lucky, you can find someone that can do a pretty good job of one classic rock singer, as ibescotty has said. At one point we had two lead singers in the band and they took turns. The guy handled Aerosmith, Deep Purple, and some other stuff, and the girl did Heart, Rush, and some other stuff. (Somewhere out there are some awesome practice tapes I'd like to get my hands on. )

 

Somewhere in the BandWidth forum is a thread I started that reviewed a book I had recently read. I quoted one passage about mistakes bands make, including "looking for John Bonham". You're not going to find a drummer like him. It just ain't gonna happen.

 

You're also not going to find a singer that can sing the awesome classic rock set list you've assembled. You have to understand this before you move on, or you'll be a singer-less band that can't seem to make it out of the garage/basement forever. (Trust me, I've been there.)

 

So, set your sights a little lower when looking for a singer, and be willing to adjust to his/her strengths. Maybe you have to learn an entirely new set list, half of it from the Cars and then a mix of Kinks, Doors**, and what not. (**Don't have a keyboardist? Have your rhythm guitar guy come up with a similar sound; real easy these days with synth pedal boards.)

 

Alternatively, as Alex and Brocko suggest, someone already in the band is going to have to step up and tackle vocals. It's better if you all (except perhaps the drummer) find a handful of songs you can sing lead on, so you can cover more ground more easily.

 

The most likely candidate is usually the lead guitarist, because (a) he already has a penchant for the spotlight, and (b) his part usually drops out to make room for the vocals anyway. Next in line is the rhythm guitarist, because it's fairly easy to strum chords on autopilot while your brain focuses on vocals. Then the bassist, because it's typically harder to sing while playing a bass line. Drumming and singing seems to be the most difficult.

 

There are exceptions, of course. Paul McCartney, Sting, Geddy Lee, Les Claypool are all examples of bassists that sing all or most of their band's lead vocals. In some bands it is the rhythm player. And in still others, it is the drummer that sings lead: Jimmy Marinos (The Romantics/Motor City Rockers), Johnny "Bee" Badanjek (The Rockets).

 

Even John Entwistle sang lead on "Boris the Spider". He also did some amazingly high-range backups to Daltry's more baritone-centric leads. (BTW, Daltry started out playing guitar and switched to lead vocals because The Who needed a singer.)

 

Challenge yourselves. Start by having everybody in the band find five songs they can sing lead on. If it sounds good enough for a live gig, keep adding songs until you have a full set.

 

Keep in mind that a cover band isn't expected to have recording artist quality vocals. I've heard live bands with so-so vocals that made me wonder how they got a gig, and yet there they are, gigging. I've also heard original bands with good vocals on their studio recordings play live, and I could hardly hear the vocals due to poor venue/sound mix. So don't be too hard on yourselves; you may already have what you need to gig with vocals.

 

If it sounds plain awful and even your family and close friends tell you so, everyone needs to take voice lessons. Really. Instead of auditioning a constant stream of singers that just don't cut it over the next six months, if everyone improves you'll have your singers in the same time. How much time have you wasted already auditioning singers? (Yeah, it may take longer than six months, but you won't get better until you start, and you should show continuous improvement.)

 

Besides, you'll all have more fun and connect better with your audiences. And seriously, being able to sing (at least backup) is almost a necessity for any musician in a popular music band today.

 

 

Now, as for trying to go entirely instrumental, I'd say you'd be better off learning to sing. However, if this is the road you choose, ibescotty was first to correctly point out you'll need something to carry the melody in the absence of the vocals.

 

Dave's sax suggestion is pretty good, especially if you find a saxophonist that has and can play several saxes: alto, tenor, soprano, etc. This may help prevent ear fatigue. (Ear fatigue isn't as much of an issue with a singer, because the audience listens to words, not just pitches.)

 

How would you handle backup vocals, though? If you sing them, it might draw attention to the fact that you don't have lead vocals. So, you may want to add a couple more wind players (trumpet, trombone, etc.) to handle backups.

 

Having a small wind group can also keep things interesting if they take turns playing lead vocal parts. You can do it the easy way, by having one instrument lead each song. Or, you can make arrangements where the lead moves from instrument to instrument within a song. This is how Big Bands of the swing era did things.

 

Speaking of Big Bands, they did play songs that were written with lyrics and their associated melodies. Find a copy of music w/lyrics to Duke Ellington/Billy Strayhorn's "Satin Doll" or "Sophisticated Lady" and see how the melody of the lyrics is played by the instruments (usually sax section) during the head on any recording.

 

They got away without vocals in swing because their audiences were mostly dancers. You may want to try building your set list to cater to a dance crowd, e.g. "Mony Mony". They may be more interested in moving their feet than listening to lyrics. [Too bad, because I'm hearing in my head an awesome arrangement of Zep's "Living Loving Maid" with a scorching sax instead of Plant. And as we all know, nobody dances to Zep.]

 

So now the question is, is it easier to find a sax, trumpet and trombone that can play by ear (most are trained to play only by reading standard notation, but the more advanced jazzers can play by ear) and are willing to play classic rock? (A jazz musician may find classic rock boring.) Or is it easier to find a singer? Or is it easier to learn how to sing yourselves?

[Eric VB]

I can see all sorts of pitfalls with trying to do a "Making the Band"/"Rock Star"/"American Idol"/live karaoke-ish audition thing. But it may be a fun experience, so don't let me discourage you.

 

Give yourself enough lead time so you can post ads to the newspapers, entertainment weeklies, radio and TV (either as a public service announcement [PSA] or as a story they decide to pick up). Maybe others, too?

 

You'll have to find a venue willing to host the event, too. This shouldn't be a problem.

 

Will the band members vote on who the winners are? Or will you recruit some judges?

[Ross Brown]

Thanks RBG. Our rythym guy sings a little. Some is absolute junk, some OK. I hear you about playing songs the singer can sing. Lead player won't sing, but he is a fantastic player.

 

I really appreciate your thoughts. I had trouble convincing the rest to add a fifth person to the band. I got them to agree, but I doubt they will go for any more.

 

On the way to lunch today I was thinking about finding a singer in another local band and asking them to "fill in" for several gigs so we can get out and use that as an additional recruiting/networking tool.

 

Without a singer, it feels just like jammin', sort of unprofessional, but I am trying to brainstorm a little.

 

Thanks again

[Gruuve]

Some good points have been made about maybe covering the vocals between the other band members. In one of my previous bands, we did that, and it worked OK...not as good as having a smokin' dedicated singer, but we still gigged. If you're doing classic rock covers, the vocals don't have to be incredible...people will still recognize and enjoy the song as long as it isn't abrasively bad!

 

Just as a possible thought...you *could* make up for some vocal talent and vocal range with the right effects...something like the Digitech Vocalist floor processor maybe? I've used one of those to make myself sound remarkably like Steve Perry for a Journey song once (used some lush reverb, EQ, and an octave harmonizer!). Believe me, making myself sound anything like Steve Perry wouldn't be at all possible without some serious gear behind it! Ah, the wonders of effects...

[Ross Brown]

Good idea Dave. I'll suggest it.

 

The last singer we had wasn't very good. Before he left he wanted to try the vocal effects thing. I even kicked in my own money towards it since he was between careers. He never bought it and left the band due to health problems of his wife, etc.

 

Next time I will buy it myself and let someone use it... Lesson learned. He meant well, just had too much going on.

[ibescotty]

Dropping a song a half step brings everything into range sometimes too. Lots of songs are recorded that way originally anyway. We tried to cover Desire by U2 not long ago. I could sing it fine with the CD but not with the band. Found out it was a half step down. I check for myself now before I bring a song in.

 

I miss playing bass...

[dhomer]

This has been done quite successfully in the past. The Ventures come to mind...

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by dhomer:

This has been done quite successfully in the past. The Ventures come to mind...

True.

 

You can still pull off The Ventures today. If you live in Japan. And if you're an adorable young girl. Like Chicchi . (There's a link on here to her youtubes, but just google there for her name.)

 

Did The Ventures play songs written with vocals as instrumentals? Or did they write their own originals?

[Moe Monsarrat]

I refuse to be the guy who says something CAN'T work. The "no singer" thing could work IF you could get somebody who takes an outrageous solo. I would try to find a good singer & I guess you have. Learning to sing better is an option that I have seen work before. I was a good friend of Stevie Ray Vaughn. He & I used to play at a jam at a BBQ place in South Austin on Sunday afternoons. He was always a great player, but rarely sang. I did most of the singing at the jam session & Stevie always dug it. As he got more & more popular, he was required to sing all the time. He was uncomfortable with how he sounded & at one point asked me to go on the road with him as the singer. Besides the fact that I had a very successful band at the time, I could see the writing on the wall. HE was the star of that show & me singing would just kinda be in the way. He was getting better at singing all the time & the big record company he was signing with would have undoubtedly canned me as being superfulous. I turned him down & he was kinda upset. I told him what I thought & he got it because that's what the record execs had been saying all along. You CAN get better & before he was killed he was a credible singer. He always talked about the time in Houston he invited me up to sing a blues tune. We pretty much tore the house down & afterwards Stevie says " You're a bad MF, you made BLACK women cry!" Thanks Brother, R.I.P.

[Ross Brown]

Thanks Moe. I'll see what the rest of the band thinks tonight at practice. The guitarist is good (best I ever played with)and can pull off outrageous solos. To do this no singer thing (or very few songs with vocals) I do think we will have to tailor to song specific songs, but I don't know what they would be yet.

 

Thanks for the SRV story. I am a very big fan of his.

[Phil W]

Hey, I missed the rock/blues band bit - some of the other posts led me astray. I'm never quite sure what people mean by 'classic rock' I think there are possibilities. Maybe just do a minimum of vocals.

Guys like Gary Moore managed to do the 'mostly' instrumental thing and the sets by guys like Cream, Hendrix, Santana or early Fleetwood Mac contained a lot more playing than singing.

It all depends on the material, the quality of the soloists and the potential scene/venues/gigs, but then that's a lot of variables, I guess.

Thing is, unless you're a very big draw, there're always bigger audiences and more potential earnings for music with vocals.

[picker]

Rock instrumentals, was big in the 50's and early 60's, but kinda fell off after the Beatles hit. The only instrumental guitar band I can think of that lasted past then was the Ventures, and they were draggin' sales pretty badly in the US after 1969. Instrumental music became something you only heard regularly in jazz and easy listening, although you still had the occsional rock instrumental that was thrown in to fill out out albums, like Moby Dick for Zeppelin, Coast to Coast for the Scorpions, etc. The only modern guitarist I know of that did many instrumentals was Stevie Ray (Lenny, Rude Mood, Scuttle Buttin', Stang's Swang, Riviera Paradise, etc. I don't, by the way, consider any of those tunes filler.

I wonder if rock instrumentals will ever make a real comeback? Seems like it ought to, really; everything else has been done and redone in the last 40 or so years. maybe it's time for a good instrumental band to hit. I doubt if they'll get much airplay though; the suits in the record companies won't have any idea how to market it, and the program directors at the radio stations, all of which run formats so narrow these days thatthey can see through a keyhole with both eyes simultaneously, won't have any idea how to program them.

[picker]

Originally posted by Moe Monsarrat:

I was a good friend of Stevie Ray Vaughn. He & I used to play at a jam at a BBQ place in South Austin on Sunday afternoons...He always talked about the time in Houston he invited me up to sing a blues tune. We pretty much tore the house down & afterwards Stevie says " You're a bad MF, you made BLACK women cry!"...

Dude, them's words of high praise from a very reputable source. You must sing hotter than a $2 pistol!

 

But I gotta say, there was a time when, if SRV had asked me to come on tour with him, I would have gotten a glazed look in my eye and said "Yeah man, anytime!", if for no other reason than it would increase my street cred.

[bruiser_dup2]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

Everybody likes the sax,

Dave

Nope, not everybody likes the sax. I can handle a tenor or baritone, but alto and soprano are like fingernails on a chalk board to me. Too screechy.

 

I like a good horn section, but sax solos all night? No thanks.

 

Ed

[Moe Monsarrat]

It's always been my living since I was 13 years old. I wish I could say it's something I earned, but it's a gift from God. Maybe it was Him who led me to make the decision not to go with Stevie. Who knows? I could have ended up on that helicopter too. My voice has allowed me to work all over the world & meet people I would never have met otherwise. I give thanks for it every day. The best thing is that when I'm really singing well, it feels like it isn't me doing it. Like it's just kinda flowing thru me. I hope everybody feels that with something they do.

[Eric Iverson]

I once knew a three-piece rock trio without a singer, and they did an excellent job of playing the tunes like the record... though without vocals. They were playing on the street for tips.

 

I enjoyed their playing, being a guitarist, but I don't know if they could have gotten by with this playing in clubs!

[Eric Iverson]

Originally posted by Picker:

Rock instrumentals, was big in the 50's and early 60's, but kinda fell off after the Beatles hit. The only instrumental guitar band I can think of that lasted past then was the Ventures, and they were draggin' sales pretty badly in the US after 1969. Instrumental music became something you only heard regularly in jazz and easy listening, although you still had the occsional rock instrumental that was thrown in to fill out out albums, like Moby Dick for Zeppelin, Coast to Coast for the Scorpions, etc. The only modern guitarist I know of that did many instrumentals was Stevie Ray (Lenny, Rude Mood, Scuttle Buttin', Stang's Swang, Riviera Paradise, etc. I don't, by the way, consider any of those tunes filler.

I wonder if rock instrumentals will ever make a real comeback? Seems like it ought to, really; everything else has been done and redone in the last 40 or so years. maybe it's time for a good instrumental band to hit. I doubt if they'll get much airplay though; the suits in the record companies won't have any idea how to market it, and the program directors at the radio stations, all of which run formats so narrow these days thatthey can see through a keyhole with both eyes simultaneously, won't have any idea how to program them.

I seem to remember Steve Vai and Joe Satriani did a lot of instrumentals. And Eric Johnson also, although of course there are also vocal tunes.

 

Not too many strictly instrumental rock acts, you are right.

 

Lots of instrumentals in the "smooth jazz" category, but that ain't my cup of tea for all the coffee in Brazil!

 

Re: narrow formats - for sure and certain. Especially since more and more radio stations are owned by the same people, with their surveys and focus groups. #)@$*#)*$

 

I remember FM rock radio in the late '60s and '70s where the DJ would play something just cause he LIKED it - what a concept! No focus groups there - of course, in those days nobody actually focus on anything anyway - too much pot smoking.. "nothing affects me, affects me, affects me..."