Splitting gig pay, contracts with bars and getting paid

[Ross Brown]

Good morning everyone.

 

How often does it occur that bands play and then dont get paid by the club owner? Is this a big problem and what have you found to be the best solution (no testosterone stories, please ). Also, do you guys out there playing in bar bands typically use contracts? I have seen both approaches.

 

Second question: As the band I am putting together begins working out some of the nasty details, one idea was floated that the person that books the gig should be allowed to take 10 or 15% off the top and then the rest gets split. I have mixed emotions about that. For example, I suspect we have band members that will do nothing in the way of trying to get gigs so maybe it should be worth something. On the other hand, we then have to start considering what else band members are doing that is important, ie I provide a rehearsal space and pay for and maintain the web site (not done yet).

 

I am leaning towards equal split, period. My view is that really anything is OK as long as everyone agrees upfront. Just wonder what others think or do about this.

[kenthemimic]

And here we go again, when it comes to money everything changes.

 

Our rehearsal space doesn't cost anyone because it's in one of our basements. The power we use is easily offset by the convenience of him not having to drive plus the gas.

 

We never used a contract for a gig, just a handshake. There should be enough witnesses in the crowd to testify you actually played there in case it goes to small claims court. That is unless you really suck and have noone in the crowd!

 

The other stuff we just split evenly. It gets too hard to try and divvy it up by who actually did what. It works for us anyway.

 

Hope this helps Ross.

[moot]

When I was in the bar band scene we had a sound agreement within the band.

 

1) Gigs were booked on a $100 per man per night basis - period. More was always good but never less.

2) Whoever booked the gig enjoyed the contents of the tip jar.

3) If there was ever a problem getting paid we would A> Not play again without a signed contract or, B> Not play there again.

 

Only once that I recall during my 20 some years of bar gigs did the band get threatened with less than was agreed upon. The guitarist picked up a chair and commented that the front window was probably worth at least what the intended shortage was. We were payed in full and we never returned to the bar.

Sorry for the testosterone.

[JonathanD]

As far as spliting the gig money...

 

There is the provider of the PA, the rehersal space, the web page, and the booking. All are important things. In my last band I provided the rehersal space and the PA for gigs that needed it. I took the amount it cost to rent a pa of the same size and took 50%off. It was about $75 a night. I split this with the guy that drove the van andhad a trailer. the guy that booked the gig got 15% just like an agent would. Really booking gigs is very important, without it you have no place to play out. Also, you can get everyone doing there best to book gigs.

 

Remember a PA and rehersal space take money and time. IMO The people providing them should be compinsated.

 

Ken, I cant imagine that a band practice uses more that $1.00 of electricity.

 

Jonathan

[lug]

Giving the guy that gets the gig a bump is capitalism at it's finest. Real motivation to get out and get the band making money for EVDERYBODY should be rewarded.

[...]

Split the funds however you and your band decide is fair. Make sure everyone gets a say and everyone agrees because at some point someone may get obnoxious about it.

 

Gigs and contracts are another matter. This is how the 80's cover band I play in does it:

 

* All corporate parties, weddings, private gigs, etc... have a signed contract. Basically anything that's not a bar, club, or casino.

 

* Casino gigs have a signed contract. One of the Casinos we play at regularly doesn't do the contract thing with us anymore because of the trust relationship we've built up. We know they aren't going to try and pull something on us. They always hand us a check before we play a note.

 

* Bars and clubs vary widely. Some of them want a contract with the band and some of them could care less. We rarely do contracts with bars and clubs and so far we have not had any problems. Usually we agree on a set fee + potential bone-us pay if they do really well the night(s) we are playing.

 

As part of your agreement with the places you're playing at you can request payment before you begin your first set. That way if the person paying you tries anything you can simply pack up your gear and leave. Cash is best since checks can be cancelled.

[Tom Capasso]

I think a bump for the person who books the gig is OK (as was said, the band should figure this out).

 

We do not do this. We gig infrequently for (usually) little money. And the even split does more to recognize all of the various types of work that people in the band step up to do (see my luv for bandmates thread here ).

 

We did one corporate gig, but one of the owner is a friend of the singer - no contract. The private parties and bars have been the same. We don't have anything like a contract on hand.

 

We have not been stiffed, and have played for the door without feeling cheated. In one case, we had almost left when the owner was on the phone with the barmaid. She told me to wait a minute, got off the phone and handed me an additional $50 (we had collected the door money ourselves). At a private party (friends of the drummer) we received a check that included 50% more than the agreed rate. This was especially pleasing because we'd had such a good gig and enjoyed it very much - it was nice to see that the home owners felt likewise.

 

Tom

[Tenstrum]

In my band, we give the guitarist a 10% bonus because he provides the PA. He bought every piece of it and usually gets the sound setup for everyone, so I have no problem with him taking a little extra. He's actually a good soundman. We split the rest evenly.

 

I've never done any corporate gigs, just bars and parties. Always been a gentleman's agreement. So far, we haven't been stiffed.

[Ross Brown]

The booking thing gets tricky, maybe. Lets say I book a bar for this Friday night. We do well and the bar owner asks us back while we are there. Did I book that too or was it the fine playing of everyone that got us the gig?

 

If I book a standing gig (ie every Monday night) do I get 15% each time we play it?

 

I am kind of leaning toward just equal cuts. Simpler. The other factor is that, God willing, we would like to only play about once a week or so. An occasional two gig week is OK, but doesnt really suit all of the time. Would we end up competing with ourselves for our own open dates? (At this point, it is of course a fantasy story, since I dont have a handle on how good we are yet. We might stink .)

 

I am trying to do my thinking before we have this conversation as a band. I really appreciate everyones thoughts.

[Tom Capasso]

The gig frequency should be set. As soon as a gig is booked, your weekend is done. On the (assumedly rare) times that two gigs are booked for the same weekend by two different bandmates, you can play both. You'll always have the risk of having to go back to a bar and say "it turns out we aren't available on this night because another band member booked us".

 

The equal cut is easier. You can devise formulas (Connie Z had an interesting take on this way back), but it makes everything very clear.

 

Tom

[Jimmie ThunderLizard]

Ross-

I play in several bands and also freelance. All the regular bands split the money equally. You can factor in equipment, transportation, administration, rehearsal space, and attempt to split the pay based on these factors and still come away with hard feelings. On my pick-up jobs, the leader calls me and tells me how much the job pays; I can accept or not.

The level of performance and reliability for a corporate gig or wedding is a lot higher, so a contract is needed. Remember, in most contracts, if you default for any reason, you owe the other party the amount of the contract.

As I've gotten older, I've put band money on the back burner and have been a LOT happier. Play for fun and enjoyment; any money that goes in your pocket is a bonus.

Good luck to you!

[Bob Gollihur]

I think it depends on the band and the relationships. Personally, I would have no problem with a member getting a bump for scoring the gig, provided all else is more-or-less equal with all of the players. I've also done the "sideman" thing since first playing in the sixties, the leader books and runs the gig, recruits the players, and he pays us scale or whatever we accept- that's the way it was done on Union gigs then, and as Jimmie mentions, the way it is often done today.

 

There are always inequities, it all depends on the structure of the loose confederation of musicians. Five-six years ago I owned and hauled the PA in the main group back then. My current main gigging band uses Bose systems so all I haul is my two cab rig.

 

Getting gigs is something that some players are good at and maybe even enjoy doing, while some are not cut out for it. Since I lost my ability to speak normally I simply can't have a conversation with an owner in a loud bar.

[lug]

Originally posted by Tenstrum:

In my band, we give the guitarist a 10% bonus because he provides the PA. He bought every piece of it and usually gets the sound setup for everyone, so I have no problem with him taking a little extra. He's actually a good soundman. We split the rest evenly.

 

I've never done any corporate gigs, just bars and parties. Always been a gentleman's agreement. So far, we haven't been stiffed.

[Ross Brown]

Might be simpler if I just get all of the money and everyone else just plays for fun. Think it will fly???

[TimR]

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

The booking thing gets tricky, maybe. Lets say I book a bar for this Friday night. We do well and the bar owner asks us back while we are there. Did I book that too or was it the fine playing of everyone that got us the gig?

 

If I book a standing gig (ie every Monday night) do I get 15% each time we play it?

 

Depends on your conscience. An agent would demand that all bookings were done through them, and no other contracts be entered into with anyone who approaches you at that gig. In practise though, you could just take a finders fee. eg only take the 15% for the first gig.

 

If the whole band use the PA and not just the singer, then you would be within your rights to charge for its use (this is what I do), but be sensible about it. Sometimes taking money for the PA would mean that the guys in the band get less than an ideal amount, in which case I don't charge. I make a call depending on the type of gig, charging enough to ensure that the rest of the band don't take the mickey and 'expect' the PA to be there every time. But I like that idea of charging 10%, might be better than just £50($100) if the gig pays over £400($800).

[getz out]

All the bar-band/cover-band gigs I did, the person who books the band got a double share. Also, there was usually one person that handled all the booking, or else all hell breaks loose. I have been the person who books the band. I'd rather just play for a share and pass on the money, it is not worth it.

[57pbass]

In most of the bands I have worked in we split the money equally.... including tips..nobody gets extra for booking the band..

 

Getz said it right --

its not worth fighting over ....

 

We have paid agents fee and take that off the top..

[Tenstrum]

Originally posted by lug:

Originally posted by Tenstrum:

In my band, we give the guitarist a 10% bonus because he provides the PA. He bought every piece of it and usually gets the sound setup for everyone, so I have no problem with him taking a little extra. He's actually a good soundman. We split the rest evenly.

 

I've never done any corporate gigs, just bars and parties. Always been a gentleman's agreement. So far, we haven't been stiffed.

Actually, we just give him 10% because he is the guitarist and Hey we all know that they are the best musician in the band and just being a guitarist means he should get more money...

 

Seriously, he has his downfalls (remember that picture with the four 4x12 cabinets????), but he has a pretty good ear for running sound and he has a big enough van to haul the PA. He told me last gig that he just uses the PA to reinforce my sound instead of trying to EQ and change it.

Sometimes, common sense does prevail!

[Yogi]

When I did Top 40 for a while, I was talked into becoming the "band leader", which meant I dealt with our agency, contracts, etc. I did get a 10% bonus with which I was initially uncomfortable.

 

Later, I wished the "band leader" bonus had been higher. Especially when the tax man came calling.

 

Here are some examples where the band leader might face "difficulties" that you might not think of:

 

Our first mistake is that there was no "business account." The clubs all wrote checks directly to me, and kept my SSN as our business ID.

 

We booked a two-night club gig out of town. The first night, we got paid in cash. For night 2, we got a check. What I would do was deposit the checks into my checking account, and write everybody in the band their "paychecks." Turns out this particular check from the club bounced. They went bankrupt the week after we played there. Most of my bandmates had cashed their checks and paid their bills (the band was the only job for a couple of them). This put me in the awkward position of having to ask my bandmates to give me the money back. A couple of them had no money, so I had to garnish their earnings for a couple of months before it was all even again, because they couldn't afford to go a week with no pay. Not fun.

 

When I left the band, I was relieved. But it wasn't over yet. I had a very complicated tax return for the years I was "band leader", as over $100,000 paid to the band went through my personal checking account.

 

Then here's the kicker: some of the clubs reported paying me income to the IRS without sending me a 1099. So, my return didn't square with what the IRS expected.

 

You know what came next.

 

When all was said and done, I would have liked to have been paid a 25% bonus for all the crap I went through!

 

Just be careful, especially if the band starts earning a lot of money. Get a business account. And remember that the "band leader" is often dealing with a ton of crap the other band members don't know about.

[...]

That is a fine (and very crappy) way to learn to setup a band as a LLC (or something similar). Sorry that happened, Yog. I'd forgotten all about that 'wonderful' experience you had.

[jcadmus]

"How often does it occur that bands play and then dont get paid by the club owner?"

 

As often as the club owner can get away with it.

 

Which, among other things, is why I don't do bar gigs anymore.

 

1) Always have a contract for any paying gig you're doing.

 

2) If you're playing for the gate, YOUR guy collects the money at the door, NOT some employee of the bar.

 

3) If you getting paid a guarantee by the bar owner based on the number of people who come in, have YOUR guy at the door with a counter, standing right next to the bar employee doing the count.

[butcherNburn]

Make sure everyone is in agreement about the money well before the gig. A few petty dollars isn't worth breaking up over. And it's usually the petty things that turn out nasty.

[rooster6550]

I've seldom had problems getting paid in my 18 years of "musical travels". Only one club has ever been dodgy, and it's widely known around here, so you play there at your own risk. They might pay you with no issue, might try to negotiate after the fact, or sometimes you simply can't "find" the guy in charge of paying, and you have to make a trip or two to collect.

 

For some reason, around here, it's hard to get peoplpe to sign a contract. But I can't think of more than one or two "issues" I've ever had because a contract wasn't signed.

 

RE: the second question: Taking money off the top is iffy unless there's some accountability. In my last band (that I was with for six yrs.), the MO when I joined was that the guy who owned the PA and booked got 10 percent off the top. Fine. But, that was *also* to cover repairs, etc. It got ugly when he started needing "more" money to fix stuff. Now, I don't mind helping if a bill gets run up, but the thing was that stuff *wasn't* getting fixed.

 

It came down to the other three of checking options, buying a PA, and saying "Here's the deal. . ." He sniffed at it (he had no input) but it made *everybody* responsible for paying for and maintaining the gear. It was a BIG improvement, and it stayed the same four of us until the end. And, we voted to make any expense payable right away: fuel, repairs, etc. What was left was split.

 

Then there's the idea that, if a member wants, they can do whatever they want to help, but they shouldn't expect compensation if it's their baby. Case in point: I bought a case and about $1K worth of stuff so we'd have a functional FOH rack. I didn't expect compensation, all I wanted was for us to have pro gear and sound better. . .

[omegamike]

In my band, nobody seemed to want to book shows - so we also initiated a 10% booking policy. I guess it's not a problem for some bands, getting shows for us was, and once the commission was in there, we had more gigs. I ended up doing the lion's share of the booking, but it was out there for anyone who took the effort to book the show, they'd get 10%.

 

For the record I also ran the website/webhosting, did CD jacket artwork, posters, online promo, a newsletter etc and never expected payment for it.

 

I can't recall ever NOT getting paid at a show, and can actually recall where after playing for a set amount that we got an immediate raise for our next show with no hassle at all. Also, the drummer for my band also played drums for a classic rock band that played an ill-fated show when there was a major black out in the area. The bar ended up paying them for their time and rentals even though NO music and NO patrons visited that night (Twas a lengthy blackout).

 

I think bars stiffing bands happens rarely, but when it does happen I think you hear about it far more often then the good things that bars do for bands.

[rooster6550]

I agree. When getting "stiffed" happens -- and it rarely seems to -- things gets ugly in one way or another. And bad/shitty news travels pretty fast through the musician "grapevine". . .

 

And most bars (or other venues) do their level best. Everybody wants to make money -- bands, club-owners, bartenders and waitresses, etc. I, myself, try to at least make an effort to get to know the people who run the clubs we play, even if I'm not doing the booking. . .And I offer my contact info in case they can't, for some reason, reach the person doing the booking (if there's a problem of some sort). . .I mean, you catch a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar. Be friendly, tip the help, be flexible and, overall, be professioinal, and your phone will ring.

 

Around here, most club-owners know each other pretty well. If booking you doesn't pay or if problems or trouble follow you, it'll travel equally fast through their "network". . .

[EddiePlaysBass]

My dad's old band used to give a fixed amount to whomever booked the gig. It even went so far that one night I managed to book them a gig, and got paid for it

 

Everyone was happy with the arrangement, and I think that's the basic idea: keeping everyone happy with whichever arrangement you come up with.

[jlrush]

As Yogi pointed out, when the taxman gets involved things definitely get ugly. That's when an LLC setup can benefit the band or the leader. I'm glad I've never been the official band leader. I've either played for a salary or we played for the door and AFAIK playing for the door was always under the table.

 

If you play for the door, it's a good idea to have someone you know and trust to take the money. In one weekly gig I played the bar had their bouncer take the $$. We all knew him well and trusted him, but his boss would always come up around midnight and take the cash into his office, then bring it back to the doorman a little while later. It seems that we always made about the same amount no matter how busy it was, and we were sure this club owner was skimming off the top. We always did pretty well $$ wise but could've done better at times. If you want the gig what are you gonna do?

 

My $.02.

[rooster6550]

In an earlier post on this thread, I mentioned a pair of club-owners who we had to chase around for money. . .

 

The "door was" part of the deal. . .Basically, the door and $250, IIRC (that was backk in 2000 )

 

Even if we had a decent crowd, we never seemed to make as much as we thought we should. We could estimate the number of patrons, but. . .

 

A friend of mine, who ran sound for certain gigs there, said to buy one of those "clicker" mechanical counters that doormen at some clubs use. . .And post your own "sentry" at the door to "count heads", so to speak.

 

She was right. . .Not that it's a legally enforceable recourse, but the simple idea of somebody employed by the band taking a count might just help keep people on the level. . .Especially if they're on the :iffy" side. . .

 

The upside of that sitch/club is that now, the current owners' other brother (who actually has some business accumen) wants to take the reins, as he's fronting a good bit of the money. He wants to install a house sound system (a "first" here in GFND in the time I've played here) and hire a pro sound person, likely the friend I mentioned. . .

 

Always liked playing there, never liked the BS and hassle. Maybe this is a "sign".