Learning to Fill / Solo

[jmrunning3]

In my most recent lesson, we looked at scale/mode relationships.

 

Thanks to Dreamer , I now know "Oye Como Va" is in Am. (I know, I know. It seems to be everyone's favorite song to play live. ) Last night I spent some time learning the song as it was originally recorded. Simple task, done and done.

 

My instructor asked me to take that song and treat it as a vamp and try to solo over it. After learning the song, I made a few tentative steps toward that goal, but I found myself rushing back to the root each time I hit a bad note. My question: is there a good "beginner" way to approach a simple solo and how (or if) does one apply the minor modes in this case? I'm not trying to solo over the entire song and I'm not trying to do anything overly technical, maybe even no more than a fill here and there.

[alexclaber]

Try singing/humming a solo over that vamp and then working out how to play it. You'll probably be amazed at how harmonically simple the strongest melodic solos are - much is in the phrasing, from the timing of the notes (start, stop and rests) and the nuances like slides, bends, vibrato and accents.

 

It helps to switch mindset from that of a drummer wannabe to a singer wannabe!

 

Alex

[wraub]

I don't know if this will help you at all, but I tend to approach fills and turnarounds from a rythmic, note count perspective, i.e. "How many notes until the pickup?", and then find the "right" notes. Whereas I try to approach solos from a melodic place first, i.e. "This is the key, how can I work it around in the song?" Rythmic distinction comes second, usually.

 

Like all rules in music, this is set in stone and subject to personal interpretation.

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[SteveC]

A couple of suggestions:

 

- don't start on beat 1 of eavery measure or chord

- don't stop on beat 4 of every measure or chord

- don't start on the root of every measure or chord

- don't play evey note or lick you know in every solo

- the notes you don't play are as imprtant as the notes you do play

 

Good luck and have fun.

[jmrunning3]

While you all can be safely assured I will not be singing anything within earshot anytime soon, I did sing/hum some ideas to myself while driving around at lunch. Reading between the lines of your comments, there appears to be almost as much "feel" needed as there is knowledge and planning, correct?

 

As always I appreciate the advice.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by jmrunning3:

...there appears to be almost as much "feel" needed as there is knowledge and planning, correct?

Exactly!

 

Alex

[jeremy c]

For the scale:

 

Start with minor pentatonic: A C D E G

 

Then add the b5/#4 to make it a blues scale:

 

A C D D# E G

 

Use the D# to either go up to the E or down to the D.

 

Then try the dorian scale:

 

A B C D E F# G A

 

Try to play in "sentences". Play a short phrase. Answer yourself with another phrase. And so on.

 

Try singing something first and then playing it.

[Eric VB]

[edit: bleh! Jeremy posted a more elegant reply while I was typing. oh well.]

Originally posted by jmrunning3:

In my most recent lesson, we looked at scale/mode relationships. [...] My question: is there a good "beginner" way to approach a simple solo and how (or if) does one apply the minor modes in this case?

Well, is the song diatonic or modal or something else? And just what the heck did I just ask?

 

By "diatonic", I simply mean there are no key changes. (This may not be the best term to use; maybe someone can suggest a better one?) So first you have to find out what key the song is in, and if it changes. (Lucky for you this song only has two chords, so this should be pretty easy.)

 

By "modal", I mean that a certain mode is used throughout a song. Maybe the chords just ascend by a minor 3rd -- C, Eb, Gb, Bbb (=A), back to C, etc. -- and phrygian mode is played for each chord. Or a 12-bar blues with mixolydian for each of the three chords.

 

In a diatonic context, you could say that the Am7/D7 is a ii/V7 progression in the key of G. [Disclaimer: read here .] In that case, you apply dorian mode to the ii chord and mixolydian to the V7 chord. Or just stay in the key of G, i.e. play from the G major scale, and you'll be fine.

 

If you read the above link, you probably saw that the minor pentatonic is a subset of dorian mode. You can get a lot of mileage out of soloing with just the minor pentatonic. Sometimes dorian can be the next best thing. So, try playing your song in a modal fashion using just dorian, i.e. A dorian then D dorian. (Try other modes, too.)

 

Which approach sounds better to your ear for this song?

Originally posted by jmrunning3:

I'm not trying to solo over the entire song and I'm not trying to do anything overly technical, maybe even no more than a fill here and there.

Go ahead and try to solo over the entire song. Why not? You may surprise yourself. Maybe start with the melody of the song and try changing it around.

 

You don't need to be overly technical, but you can use the theory you've learned to explore note choices you may not have tried otherwise, especially if you've only ever played minor pentatonics before.

 

OTOH, try a stripped down pentatonic solo, too. Sometimes simple is better. Relax and really go for feel.

 

Just remember, as a bass player you'll be playing bass lines most of the time. Being able to play an extended solo is a nice trick to have in your bag. Your focus on short solos and fills makes more sense, as these will be tools you'll use more often.

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by C. Alexander Claber:

Try singing/humming a solo over that vamp and then working out how to play it. You'll probably be amazed at how harmonically simple the strongest melodic solos are - much is in the phrasing, from the timing of the notes (start, stop and rests) and the nuances like slides, bends, vibrato and accents.

Alex

+1. I could not have said this any better...sing a melody and rhythm that works and brings something special to the song. Your hands can't play what's not in your head!

 

This of course assumes that you want the solo to be melodic, which you probably do would be my guess.

 

Dave

[jmrunning3]

Argh. I'm finding this a frustrating endeavor. I may be over-thinking too much, but I really don't know. I wrote out the appropriate scales for reference as well as the pentatonics, but there is an element I am missing. I know the song itself very well, but adding something to it from my own perspective isn't happening for me. Tonight's my lesson so I'll see what my instructor can help me with.

 

As I was working on this, it felt as if "something" was missing from what I was trying to accomplish. Feel? Emotion? Dunno yet, but it seemed as though I were forcing the issue rather than just getting into it. Trying too hard, in other words. I'm bad about that.

[alexclaber]

Work out the vocal melody and play it on the bass - then start messing with the phrasing of the notes. Try to sing in your head and follow that melody as you play.

 

Whenever learning something new it's hard to put much feeling into it - that's why it's called practice rather than performing! Don't sweat it.

 

Alex

[jmrunning3]

Originally posted by C. Alexander Claber:

Work out the vocal melody and play it on the bass - then start messing with the phrasing of the notes. Try to sing in your head and follow that melody as you play.

 

Whenever learning something new it's hard to put much feeling into it - that's why it's called practice rather than performing! Don't sweat it.

 

Alex

So rather than trying to make it into something new, just embellish the existing components a little? If I'm understanding your point correctly, then I definitely was over-thinking.

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by jmrunning3:

So rather than trying to make it into something new, just embellish the existing components a little? If I'm understanding your point correctly, then I definitely was over-thinking.

Or maybe overwhelmed?

 

Everyone gave good advice. Some is based on ear training, some is based on theory. Both skills are useful to musicians, but since you're learning theory it's helpful to concentrate on that at this point.

 

I realize you're on to your new lesson, but that doesn't mean you should no longer consider this lesson at all.

 

Now, there's no reason you can't use theory "in reverse" to analyze music. So, take Alex' suggestion, learn the existing melody, and analyze it using your knowledge of theory to try to understand how it works.

 

Chances are for "Oye Como Va" you'll notice that the melody is built primarily from notes from the A and D pentatonic scales. What are the notes outside the pentatonics? They probably fall into A dorian or D mixolydian, depending on what chord is being played.

 

Take one phrase -- maybe the opening "oye como va" -- and try changing some notes based on theory alone. Leave the rhythm alone for now and just change the pitches. Try using the starting pitch and make the phrase climb from pitch to pitch. You can reverse the order of those pitches to make a descending line, or try starting on another pitch and descend. Next try to find pitches that harmonize well with the original phrase. (What intervals do you think would harmonize well based on your knowledge of chord structure?) Play around with just that one phrase until you feel so comfortable with it you can play at least 3-5 substitutions. (This is kind of a "variation of theme" kind of thing.)

 

Try to use what you came up with as a counter melody. That is, play your substitutions in a call-and-answer fashion to the original "oye como va" phrase. You may need to make some adjustments because now you're playing over the D7 instead of the Am7. Try messing with the rhythm now, too, and maybe adding or removing notes as you see fit (i.e., use your ear). Does what "sounds good" make sense in terms of theory?

 

Anyway, that's one approach. Theory can "suggest" which notes might sound good over a given chord other than the "usual suspects" of root and 5th (and 3rd and 7th even). That doesn't mean you can only use a diminished (flatted) 5th in locrian mode, though, for example. The ultimate authority on what "sounds good" to you is your ears.

[PhilMan99]

One aspect of a solo is the role you want to take.

 

A solo on a guitar or saxaphone, for example, is very much like singing. Lot's of passing-tones, special-effects, pauses.

 

Bass solos (that I've heard) are typically more like drum solos, in keeping with the bass's role of providing a background "groove" during a song. As I put on my "asbestos underwear" and "bullet-proof vest", I must say that I hate most bass solos. There is too much emphasis on "blinding speed", with drum-like consistency, at the expense of using very simple fret-hand patterns that are too "non-melodic" for my taste. For solos, I really prefer something more melodic, which typically involves playing a 6-string bass high-up the neck (low-notes sound muddy on melodic passages).

 

If like me you are "cheap", you may care to go to http://www.basslobster.com/ .

If you click "videos" on the left-hand side, you can hear *lots* of free solos by numerous "greats" on bass. There's even a slap-lesson by Victor Wooton, but his solos are at the "drum" end of the spectrum I describe above, per my humble unsophisticated ear.

 

Note: I'm providing this as a "music listener" more than a musician, as I play bass only as a hobby.

[jmrunning3]

RicBassGuy, I think "overwhelmed" is far closer to the point!

 

I am still working on this. My instructor echoed several things you all have mentioned here. A good first step is to simply play the appropriate chord tones so that you can hear them and their relationship. Second, add some rhythmic dynamics a little at a time using those same chord tones. Maybe even trying to play the melody. After that, try adding other scale tones. Don't worry about chromatics yet, keep it simple. The key is listening and building it slowly. Don't go for anything fancy, just enhance what's already there.

 

Then he shrugged and said, "Who knows. You might even come up with a whole new riff you like and build something entirely new from there."

[wade_g]

To me, Oye Como Va is a very laid back song. That said, I think the mood requires 'less is more', melodic, lots of rests, back of the pocket type solo. In fact, if I were playing this with a band, I'd probably suggest a back and forth solo thing with the drummer.

 

Of course, the song can be played in whatever style you want it, and I think your solo should fit that. The reverse engineering that RicBassGuy suggests is a good idea.

[Big Red 67]

If you end up going to the root, do it in a different octave.

[JPJ]

A couple things that you can do....

 

1) Play along with old blues CDs, copying/learning some of the more simple riffs and licks...think B.B. King. This should give you something to start with and should inspire you to come up with little licks of your own.

 

2) Learn the neck! Learning the "note patterns" of the neck will give you more confidence to improvise and move "up" the neck into unfamiliar territory, if necessary

 

3) Learn a few basic box patterns. These were used very successfully by guys like Jimmy Page and B.B. King when soloing and wriging riffs. They're also great to "grow into". You can start with basic patterns and increase the complexity from there.

 

4) Did I mention...LEARN THE NECK!

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by jmrunning3:

RicBassGuy, I think "overwhelmed" is far closer to the point!

I had a feeling, remembering my own trials and tribulations. Don't worry too much. Keep at it and before you know it you'll be 50.

 

Er, I mean, before you know it it'll all fall into place. Just keep practicing your body (technique) and mind (theory).

[Moe Monsarrat]

We have a joke about a guy who goes to Africa. At the airport there are drums. On the plane there are drums playing on all channels & after he gets to Africa all he hears is drums & more drums....day & night. He asks everyone why the drums never quit & they all say "Bad things happen when drums stop". He finally asks" What could be that bad?" Answer: "Bass solo".

[jmrunning3]

I don't understand why, but this particular exercise has really stressed me out. My lesson is tomorrow evening, and I've got nuttin'. I've tried humming some things, but I forget them by the time I'm somewhere where I can flesh it out. Picking around in the scales hasn't provided much more than finding different ways of playing the scales. That in itself is a good thing, but that wasn't my goal at this time. Is it that my thinking process just isn't in the right place yet?

[jeremy c]

Idea: go back to the five note scale:

A C D E G

 

Start on C on the fifth fret of your G string.

 

Make up something. Do not play the notes in scale order.

 

Stop thinking so much and just move your fingers and listen to what comes out.

 

Alternate idea:

 

Get a can of alphabet noodle soup.

 

Take out all the letters except for the A C D E and G's.

 

Cook the soup and stir it well.

 

Take a spoonful...look in at the letters. That's your first melodic phrase.

 

Take another spoonful...that's your second melodic phrase.

 

When you finish, you will have an acceptable solo...and you'll also have eaten lunch.

[jmrunning3]

Jeremy, that's a very clever idea. In the same vein, one could roll a die as well, yes? Thanks!

[Davo-London]

Your tutor will not want you to get stressed out. Talk to them about it.

 

Davo

[jmrunning3]

Thanks, Davo. You're very correct in that I shouldn't stress about it. I did finally come up with a little a little fill I liked, but I'm not completely sure how it would fit with that particular song. Still, I like the sound of it, so I've been working on building around that.