Intonation question

[Luke73]

Sorry about the noob question, but I've noticed something interesting about the intonation on my bass.

 

On most basses I see, the bridge saddles seem to be set in an increasing length from G to E (ie the E string is a little longer than G, and the A and D strings in between).

 

On my Corvette, the bridge saddles are in such a position after setting the intonation (when I set the intontation, I use my CA-30 tuner to ensure the twelfth fret harmonic is the same as the fretted note in the same position).

 

My (new) Streamer ended up with the G and D string saddles very close to each other when I initially set it's intonation, and the E and A strings a little further back, but very close to each other.

 

Now I've just changed strings on my Streamer to DR Sunbeams, and re-set the intonation. It seems that the intonation has ended up with all of the saddles being very nearly in the same position. The G is *slightly* shorter, the D and A are virtually identical, and the E is *slightly* longer.

 

You could almost run a straight line along the top of them all.

 

So, my noob question is, is it likely that I've done something wrong here, or is it OK for the bridge saddles to end up in the same positions?

 

[RHINO_ROB]

If the intonation is correct, I don't see any problem.

[jlrush]

Originally posted by Luke 73:

On my Corvette, the bridge saddles are in such a position after setting the intonation (when I set the intontation, I use my CA-30 tuner to ensure the twelfth fret harmonic is the same as the fretted note in the same position).

 

I guess I have a noob question here too. I always set the intonation by tuning the open string to the tuner, then the harmonic at the twelfth fret.

 

Can you do this both ways?

Are there any other ways to set intonation?

[JonathanD]

Its possible that you neck changed since the last time you set it. And it doesnt matter what the saddle looks like, jsut so long its right. I never check my intonation with harmonics because I dont play them any more than .5% of my playing. I test open, the 5th, 9th and 12th fret. if those are good, than thats what matters to me. If for some reason some frets are ona nd some are off I intone the one I play most often on that sting. for E its 3-5 for a its 5-7 d+g are 7-12.

 

Good luck.

Jonathan

[Luke73]

Originally posted by jlrush:

 

I guess I have a noob question here too. I always set the intonation by tuning the open string to the tuner, then the harmonic at the twelfth fret.

 

Can you do this both ways?

Are there any other ways to set intonation?

Setting the intonation by checking the open string against the harmonic at the twelfth fret isn't setting the intonation at all.

 

It's the fretted note that will go out of tune rather than the harmonic if the intonation isn't correct.

 

I guess checking the intonation between the twelfth fret and the open string is fine.

 

I know I only mentioned that I check the harmonic against the twelfth fret, but I check open string as well.

 

The process I follow is:

 

1: Plug directly into tuner.

 

2: Tune open string to ensure that it's perfect.

 

3: Play twelfth fret harmonic.

 

4: Play twelfth fret fretted note.

 

If the twelfth fret fretted note is sharp or flat in relation to the harmonic, adjust bridge saddle as appropriate.

 

Repeat process until twelfth fret fretted note is the same as the harmonic and open string.

 

Jonathan - sorry I didn't mention these are different strings to that which was on the bass. The change in intonation has come about because the strings are different I think. I don't think the neck has changed. I've check the relief and action, and it is still how I had it set.

 

My concern was just that the saddles seem to be in such a straight line, when most basses seem to have them set in a diagonal line from G to E.

 

I suppose as long as my tuner says the intonation is correct, then it must be (my ears tell me it sounds good too).

 

[Rocky McDougall]

Changes in saddle position is usually a result of the string size and tension. All strings are different and will adjust diffently. The most common "Average" alignment is equally staggered saddles with the larger strings gaining in length. In my opinion, setting intonation at 5th, 7th and 9th frets to be as "good as possible" is most important because that is where I play 75% of the notes. Harmonics play no part in my intonation settings. Now are you totally confused?????

Rocky

[jeremy c]

You don't have to play harmonics in your normal playing for setting the intonation by using harmonics to be the right way.

 

In fact, setting the intonation using harmonics is the only way to do it.

 

The twelfth fret harmonic has to match the twelfth fret fretted note.

 

If it doesn't, the further up the neck you go, the more out of tune your bass will be.

 

I suppose if you never play past the seventh fret it doesn't matter.

 

If you play past the 12th fret it certainly matters.

 

How the saddle pieces are aligned is irrelevant. Your bass is either in tune or it isn't. Different strings need different intonation and as the strings age the intonation may also change.

 

You don't have to take my word for it....read any book on guitar and bass maintenance and set up. Ask your guitar repairman. Or even look it up on the internet.

[Luke73]

Many thanks for the imformative response Jeremy. That is as I suspected - I just thought I'd check, as I havent seen the bridge saddles appear so straight before.

 

The bass certainly is in tune, so I'll leave it where it is.

 

[jlrush]

Well, I don't play alot above the 12th fret, but I go there for some songs. By tuning the open string, then the 12th harmonic, I haven't noticed being out of tune on my fretted basses, but on the A 12th fret on the fretless I have.

Thanks for the tips fellas. I'll recheck them all now.

[Dave Brown]

I agree with all those who say 12th fret harmonic must equal 12th fret fretted note.

 

The reason intonation has to be set at all is due to the mass (and other characteristics) of the string. If you've changed brands, the ratio of masses between each string will likely be different. I'm not surprised that the saddles will be in different places.

[lug]

If you went from normal to tapercore strings, intonation will change or from very light to very heavy strings (or vice-versa).

[Bobby LowTones]

The theory is "Nut" to "12th fret" = "12th fret" to "Bridge" and, of course, "Nut" to "Bridge" = Scale Length. In a perfect world, that's all there is to it. However, not being in a perfect world, we have to set some adjustments to fix that.

 

Unless a string is NOT consistent over its length, (ex: taper at one end, or out of tolerance) its octave harmonic will always be at the exact middle point between its supports: the nut and bridge. Gauge shouldn't matter as long as (again) the string is consistent over its full length, that's just physics applied to music.

 

Now that doesn't mean this middle spot is exactly over the 12th fret, and that's why there is some adjustment available at the bridge, to bring back the middle point at the 12th fret, an easy reference.

 

If the overall fret spacing is right (equal tempered scale - you can't do much about that, it's been set at the manufacture) and the string is consistent through its full length, overall intonation should be at best once adjusted at the 12th fret.

 

Setting the bridge adjustment so the 12th fretted note equals the octave harmonic takes care of the progressive bend which is applied to the string as notes are played higher and higher on the neck (because of the progressive string-to-board spacing - neck must be straight though).

 

Variations on any of the above discussed parameters call for some reasonable compromises...

 

My 02 cents (no pun intended).

 

Bob

[Rocky McDougall]

WHAT IF, THE 12th fret intonation is perfect yet the harmonic is off ? ? ? Should you adust ?

[Bobby LowTones]

The 12th fret intonation is perfect with what?

If the harmonic is off, likely the open string is off too...

Edit: Tune the string first...

[jar546]

I have been having a problem adjusting the intonation on my Fender P-Bass. I had not problem with the A, D or G strings but the E is consistantly sharp when checked at the 12th fret.

 

The funny part is that all other notes starting from 0, 1, 2, ...................11 are all right on the money. I just let well enough alone because I am a beginner and it will not matter at my level.

 

Any thoughts on why that would happen? I even adjusted my string heights on all four to see if that would make a difference but no.

[Bobby LowTones]

The 11th is okay but the 12th is sharp, for that string only? Is that what you're saying?

[jar546]

Yeah, go figure. I was able to dial in all strings except the E. I can't figure it out. The E is tuned perfectly, and all frets of the E all the way down until you get to the 12th (this is where I check when adjusting intonation) and then Bam! E is sharp.

 

I can't figure it out.

 

Again, at my level it does not matter but I thought it would be an interesting discussion.

[Bobby LowTones]

That I have to see/hear. Not that I don't believe you, there must be something else since all other strings are okay. if you set the intonation right at the 12th, this means all other positions are now flat on that string, right?

[Ironstorm]

Hi jeremy c is right start with the onen note , then the 12th fret fingered and set accordingly this will make sure the upper reagion of the neck is in tune. Also every time you change the gauge of your strings you need to reset the intonation. The reason I know this is because I have had 2 custom made Warrior Basses made and have had extencive conversation`s with the Luthiers during the construction of my Basses and you can`t go wrong when a Luthier who is building a Guitar from scratch tells you something the placement of the saddles does not matter only the intonation matters

[jar546]

Thanks so far.

 

Bobby LowTones said:

if you set the intonation right at the 12th, this means all other positions are now flat on that string, right?

I tune it at the open string then check it at the 12th. It is good all the way down to the 11th then at the 12th it is sharp. If I move the bridge saddle so that I am good at the 12th then everything from 11 to 1 is sharp.

 

It almost doesn't make sense.

[Bobby LowTones]

I guess you'll have to bring it to Dr Luth for this one, he'll find the cause for sure... Good luck and let us know what happened.

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by Luke73:

Setting the intonation by checking the open string against the harmonic at the twelfth fret isn't setting the intonation at all.

 

It's the fretted note that will go out of tune rather than the harmonic if the intonation isn't correct.

 

I guess checking the intonation between the twelfth fret and the open string is fine.

 

+1! You are exactly correct IMHO. If you're going to play all your notes using harmonics, then set the intonation using harmonics. Most of us fretted notes so you should set the intonation using fretted notes if you want the fretted notes that you play to be in tune. The 12th fret harmonic and the note fretted at the 12th fret can be out of tune depending on how much fretting the note stretches the string (which depends on action height, neck relief, etc.) You can check both of course, but if they don't match, set the intonation using the fretted note.

 

Dave

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by Rocky3840:

WHAT IF, THE 12th fret intonation is perfect yet the harmonic is off ? ? ? Should you adust ?

I'd say "NO". How often to you play the 12th fret harmonic when you're actually playing music? If it's more frequent than you play the 12th fretted note, then yes adjust...if not, set it by the 12 fretted note.

 

Dave

[Trucks]

Im confizzled. The octave harmonic is only ever gonna be off if the string is out of tune, because the harmonic will only ring out in the harmonic sweet spot.. which in this case is exactly an octave up regardless of where the fret actually is... You wanna get the string in tune with the frets.. Your harmonics cant by their very nature be off if your strings are in tune.. If the harmonic point is slightly to the left or right of the fret but the 12th fretted is perfect then so be it... its probably due to the action.