writing out scales in whole and half steps

[jeremy c]

Originally posted by TimR:

Most of us cheat when it comes to playing scales.

Learn both the common fingerings for the major scale. For 2 octaves!

Then just move your hand to suit.

There are a lot more than two fingerings for a major scale. Ideally you will learn so many fingerings that you never have to think about fingerings ever again. The notes will magically appear whenever you need them.

 

I hear songs in Roman Numerals, not chord names. People say, "let's play such and such a song", I say, "what key?", and off we go. After that, there is very little thought process going on, I just play the song. If I need to play a certain scale or a certain chord, my hands go to the nearest place to play it.

[D_dup3]

One instance when diagramming the whole step/half step sequence might be interesting is when thinking of diminished scales...

 

 

As to the clash over going up/down by 5ths & 4ths, I'd point out that there's a difference between going down a 4th (or 5th) & going down to the 4th (or 5th).

 

If there's a dichotomy in the conceptual "direction" of all that, does it have to do with the predominance of horns (often set in Eb, Bb, etc.) in early jazz.?

 

 

[bTW, Dan S., O is one of my parents but p is my sister, not brother. One can tell because her voice is higher... ]

[Phil W]

Yeah, pretty much one of the most useful ways of looking at the diminished scale..

For some reason this 'ging down a fourth to a fifth confuses people who probably wouldn't be confused about going down a flat third to get to the sixth etc. It's not as complex as it sounds.

 

If there's a dichotomy in the conceptual "direction" of all that, does it have to do with the predominance of horns -Interesting, d! I'd like to find some research on that. I figured it was just because of the pattern of the tunes: I IV, ii V I, iii, vi, ii, V, I etc.

[Phil W]

There are a lot more than two fingerings for a major scale.

Here's a cool one, courtesy (secondhand)of Frank Gambale. For four-stringers (ascending):

Play the root on the E string with the index finger, shift up and play the second on the same string with the index again; then play the third with the ring finger and the fourth with the pinkie. Now cross to the A string but keep the same position. Play the fifth with the index finger then shift up a tone and play the sixth, again with the index finger, the seventh with the ring finger and the octave with the pinkie. Cross to the D string, play the nineth with the index, shift up a tone and play the tenth again with the index, then the 11th with the middle finger, the 12th with the pinkie. Cross to the G string and play the 13th with the index, the 7th with the ring finger and the second octave with the pinkie. Reverse to descend.

I think you might need a bass in hand to understand this. Just one of many fingerings. It has the advantage of taking you diagonally across the fingerboard as you ascend rather than going straight across to the G string and then climbing up and down on it.

I've got this type of fingering applied to all scales, modes and arpeggios too.

 

(typed in the last seconds of lunch hour - apologies for typos!)

[TimR]

Yes there are a lot more fingerings than two. That's why I said two 'common' fingerings. Owen was hoping to use his scales to learn the fretboard a little better and is the method I used when I was a beginner so think he is on the right track. Learning complex fingerings at this stage may be distracting to him. I'll definately try that one Phil. Thanks.

[Phil W]

Fair point, Tim. Regarding my example, it's a fingering to provide another option for people rather than necessarily suited to beginners. I've been looking for an excuse to post it. Might not have been the right place. Yeah, it's a worthwhile and different approach, though. I have some of the stuff written out with fingerings which I'll try to pass on to you sometime. The arpeggios in particular give you a different approach.

[owens hound]

That's it in a nutshell TimR, I'm attempting to get my head around scales, modes and a better knowledge of the fretboard.

A lot of the information at this point is over my head but will be a great reference once I catch on to it better. I'm doing a lot of reading about the circle of 5ths and will keep practicing my scales and modes as well.

 

Jason

[Flemtone]

Let me be the first to recommend this thread be 'stickied' at the top of Page 1. I've been playing for 35 years, and this thread has given me more things to practice and contemplate than I've picked up in years.

 

Congratulations, gentlemen. I am officially awed.

 

peace,

Tim from Jersey

[jmrunning3]

Originally posted by Phil W:

There are a lot more than two fingerings for a major scale.

Here's a cool one, courtesy (secondhand)of Frank Gambale. For four-stringers (ascending):

Play the root on the E string with the index finger, shift up and play the second on the same string with the index again; then play the third with the ring finger and the fourth with the pinkie. Now cross to the A string but keep the same position. Play the fifth with the index finger then shift up a tone and play the sixth, again with the index finger, the seventh with the ring finger and the octave with the pinkie. Cross to the D string, play the nineth with the index, shift up a tone and play the tenth again with the index, then the 11th with the middle finger, the 12th with the pinkie. Cross to the G string and play the 13th with the index, the 7th with the ring finger and the second octave with the pinkie. Reverse to descend.

Phil, this is a cool way to practice I'd never considered. Thanks for posting this. I'm going to give it a try.

[Phil W]

If anyone wants copies, I have charts (standard notation) annotated with strings/fingerings that apply a similar fingering approach to the one posted on the previous page. These show fingerings for 15 different scales and 17 different arpeggios (with extensions) all starting on the same root. You can them apply them to other keys.

I'll try to scan them tomorrow so email me/pm me if you want a copy. Some of the arpeggios are a stretch!

[rdepelteau]

Keep it simple is my advice. Learning all these letters and symbols is quite time consuming. I prefer the number system.

 

1,2,3,4,5,6,7, 8/1... and all your scales are identical. When you learn one, you know them all. All your modes are also identical as this scale, you just start on the 2 for the second mode 23456712, third mode is 34567123 etc.

 

First, practice the first major scale from the low E string to G string in the first position, then extend and expand this same scale up the neck, going back and forth, gradually, higher up the neck, to learn your fingering for one scale until it's fast and loose all over the neck. I started with the C scale on the guitar, not the E scale, because it was easier for me to learn the C scale first in the first position. Once you know this one scale, you've mastered the instrument, because all scales are identical. It helps to practice scales along with the radio. That gives variety to scale repetitions, by having different rythms, and different keys. Practice also inversions in your scales, that is 13243546 etc, inversions are the tools of the trade.

 

A little theory here.

 

A major chord is three notes: 1,3,5.

A minor: 1,-3,5.

A major 7th: 1,3,5,7.

A 7th: 1,3,5,-7.

A minor 7th is 1,-3,5,-7

A diminished: 1,-3,-5.

A flat 5: 1,3,-5.

A minor 7th/13 is: 1,-3,5,-7,11,13. (13 being ...8,9,10,11, and 13, which is the same scale repeated higher.)

 

Guitars are tuned in fourth,that is, four from the E is EFG A (1234). Four from the A is ABC D. Four from the D is DEF G.

 

Mandolins are tuned in fifths, G 12345 D, A, E. Which is upside down from a guitar, like playing as a left handed person.

 

And that's all you need to know to become a classical maestro. Well, reading notes also helps.

 

This way, you can figure out every chord in a book without the need of a diagram. And you don't need to learn songs in any particular key, since transposing is a cinch.

 

Stand by me is: 1,6,4,5 in every key.

[Phil W]

re: last post but one:

Scans done, emails sent - anyone else?

[owens hound]

Here's an update since my last posts.

I've been doing lots of reading, learning how the 12345671/8 work, chords, working on reading standard notation, writing out all the notes on the freeboard and have just started to grasp (as of a few minutes ago) the circle of 5ths/4ths.

When I read back to my initial questions, I see that this was my starting point of understanding began and how far I've come.

I just wanted to thank everyone who added information to this post. I found the information very overwhelming at first but started looking at it in small sections and went from there. I've moved on from w-w-w-h-w-w-w-h way of looking at scales and am looking at 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8. The circle is now starting to make more sense as well as the relationship between chords and what scales go with them.

Jeremy's theory post is just amazing and that is what really got the ball rolling for me. I feel that I'm now on the right path.

Reading standard notation really opened up to me when I looked at the grand staff and looked at the notes as a whole rather then Good Boys Deserve...as this was just confusing for me. This also really helped me with ledger lines. There is a free downloadable program called Music Reading v7.01 that I've found very useful in learning to read as it is a very beginner reading program with lots of exercises for reading standard notation.

Thanks again and I now can understand a bit more of what you all are talking about from a theory perspective. I've completely abandoned tab and am sticking exclusively to standard notation. I now have to work on finding those notes on the freeboard.

I don't post much but am reading here every day and learning tons!

I'll continue to work through this topic and work on the suggested exercises as I'm sure that I'm just scratching the surface but I'm on my way!!

 

Jason

[Phil W]

Glad it's going well, Jason! Good luck on abandoning tab, I learned initially with tab, as you know, and it has really held me back. Even now, when I look in BP and see the standard notation/tab together the temptation to read the tab first is strong.

You seem to be a quick learner indeed, keep on keeping on!

 

Phil

[owens hound]

Thanks Phil, so far so good!

I've also been tempted by tab and have even gone so far as covering it up on pages I have with both, so I can focus exclusively on the standard notation.

 

Your charts were also very good for helping me to get started reading. I'm not following the fingering suggestions just yet but will once the notes become recognizable quicker.

 

Jason

[Phil W]

Yeah, I ythink that's best with those charts for the moment. The fingerings are intended as a way out of the standard shapes once you're used to the scales and the fingerboard. How about tranposing those arpeggios to some other keys?

[owens hound]

I'm not quite there yet! I'll have to check out how to do that in the near future.