playing Christian music for money

[tatudbassman]

I feel really guilty. I've been playing contempoary "Christian" music for about 8 years, At churches, prisons, benefits, etc...Today we played a benefit, and I didn't even hear a thank you, from anybody other than my band mates. I worked for days rehearsing, hours today setting up, and managing the board and playing. I feel like I'm at the point off making money off of my gift from God.

Any sugestions?

 

Peace!

[tatudbassman]

p.s. I've been off work for over a year also.

[Whappo]

In Christian & secular arenas, ones gift or service should never be taken for granted. However, it will happen sooner or later whether in reality or assuming thats how others feel. When its real it sure hurts, but being taken for granted can & will happen in many areas of life.

 

Is it a gig or a ministry?

 

In analyzing my own motivation, I need to ask, Why am I doing this? Is it for fun, recognition, to get discovered, get paid, get respect, be seen on stage, etc. I have to constantly remind myself that if its ministry I really play for an audience of One (God). If that is true, then why do I allow the way others act to affect what I do or how I feel about things.

 

My playing & serving in ministry is about dieing to self & living for Him. Its about being obedient to the call regardless of how I feel or how others react. Its not about me & its not about them. At 6:00 AM tomorrow morning Ill have the honor of waking up & doing it all over again trusting that Hell be glorified, not by how people respond, but by my obedience. I once heard it said that if we are obedient, Hes responsible for the results.

 

Regarding the other post, although I do not get paid myself, many bass players at church do & thats OK whether they view it as a gig or ministry. Many times if thats how they make a living, its the only way they can make it work. If youve been out of work for a year, there should be no guilt in at least asking about being compensated. More than anythingpray.

 

Humbly,

Whappo

AccuGroove

[moot]

Hmmmm. Not to share your gift would be wrong but so is being taken for granted.

 

Do you think God would hold it against you for using your talent to put food in the table? And after all, isn't it his opinion that really matters?

[tatudbassman]

Thanks Whappo. I do need to pray about it...we've done the secular thing trying to minister a positive message. And I know God will take care of me. But, having a great job would make a big difference...to where it's strickly minstry. It's just so hard. I work harder on music than a "real" job. But, it's not just about me...huh? I guess if I believe than, I shouldn't worry.

Email anytime...weekend cell minutes are free. I just took my ex-lead guitarist to D/FW for Sacremento yesterday BTW.

[davio]

I went through a phase where I was really into a christian hard rock band called Disciple (I still like pulling it out once in a while). My friend had a 45 minute video of them on the road for 3 days that was thrown in as a freebe when he bought one of their albums. When I watched it (and this was several years ago, when I was struggling with the same thing) this question of whether Christian musicians should play for money or not was asked in part of an informal interview. They put it very eloquently when they said (and I'm paraphrasing a great deal) "This is what we do. This is our job. While some people are at the office or the shop, we're playing music for God. One of us has a wife to support back home and all of us need food and clothes. If these people want us to drive hundreds of miles to play shows, they shouldn't feel bad about paying us a couple thousand dollars to do it."

 

I relate it to the pastor of a church. He's doing God's work by "tending the flock." That's his job so the flock takes care of him in that part of tithe and offering money goes to pay his salary and provide for him and his family. You are doing God's work by entertaining and leading audiences/congregations in worship. That's your job so the audience should take care of you. Even if you only play part-time, you still get paid for a part-time job.

 

What I'm getting at is that playing for God is a job just like pastoring, preaching, teaching, managing the church, etc. Some people feel convicted to perform these tasks without compensation and they are truely blessed that they are able to do so but they are the exception to the rule.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

That would be a tough call. I don't think there is anything wrong with taking money in order to cover related expenses and incidentals. As opposed to playing for the church, taking church money, and buying drugs and porn with it.

[Yogi]

It's not just people at Christian benefits who take musicians for granted these days. It's everywhere - indifference to the arts is part of our culture now.

[dcr]

I think davio's post is dead on. I've not played Christian music for money, & I wouldn't necessarily seek it out. But then, it's not my job. And a job can be a gig or a ministry; either way, one needs to get paid. As a musician, & especially as a professional musician, your talent represents a major investment of time & other resources on your part, not to mention your gear, transportation, time spent, etc. There is nothing wrong with expecting to be paid, even while you are ministering. But of course this doesn't mean that when you are ministering, you should be doing it for pay. You'll have to make that call.

 

So I guess that doesn't answer the original query. But my guess is that if you're bothered because you give & no one expresses any appreciation, being handed a check probably won't fix that. It might fix other things! But I'm not sure it would fix that feeling of being unappreciated for what you do.

 

Think about it. Suppose someone said, "My co-workers don't respect the job that I do. But it doesn't matter--I'm getting paid either way." Does that really sound very plausible to you? Not all losses can be made up for with money.

[Fred TBP]

WWJD? (What would Jesus do?)

IIRC, the tradition was to welcome a traveling minister and offer him lodging and a meal in appreciation of the spiritual message and the messenger's arrival to your little village. JC didn't charge admission but his needs were attended to. It's all there in the New Testament.

 

Now I'm not a minister but I consider a good performance a ministry of sorts in that I help people feel better about themselves and take them away from their daily troubles for a couple of hours. I don't have to get paid, nor do I expect to get food and lodging, but it would show me that the patrons who asked for my services (the ministry or charity) have read the New Testament and understand they have a spiritual obligation to thank me in some way for my time, expenses and services. I'll work for a good slice of pizza and a Pepsi if that's all they can afford. (and if they can't afford that, they're in need of good financial counseling IMHO.)

 

The important thing is not to look at this in the letter of what's expected but the SPIRIT. The Lord provides for my daily needs and enables me to perform some of my work in His service. The Lord also provides for the needs of the ministry and will enable them to spring for a pizza and Pepsi (or Coke) or maybe a little gas money to help me through the journey.

 

BTW, I get more than that as I play for pay a few times a month. And I think there's a Universal Rule in place here such that for every charitable thing I do I get it back in a paying gig or three, but that's another topic for another time. I'm not here to challenge anyone's belief system.

 

Eventually, we will be called to give testimony on what we've done. I don't know about you but I don't think I'm asking for much in terms of pizza and a Pepsi. I'll even settle for the Pepsi. It's all in the spirit of what you do and why you do it.

End of sermon.

[tatudbassman]

Thanks to you all!

[Bob Gollihur]

IMHO it's all a matter of context.

 

I have been paid for "church gigs" as a semi-professional musician over the years, from main line Philadelphia church string ensembles to local Catholic churches. None were in churches of which I was a member. Churches routinely pay for their musical director and/or organist, some also for soloists and key members as well as other musicians. Many people rely on that compensation for their life expenses.

 

OTOH I've sung in church choirs and played instruments as a member or friend of a member, as a volunteer. Along the same thread, I've played free gigs for good causes, whether a beef and beer for a sick or injured person in surrounding communities, the American Cancer Society Telethon, municipal and regional events that are just "good for the soul"-- etc. And I'm sure we've all done those good turns for friends who just ask for the favor of an unpaid gig for whatever reason.

 

There were times in my life where I would not turn down the offer of a few bucks for gas or my trouble, due to my own economic circumstance (Kiddies need shoes), but many more times I could afford to be altruistic.

 

We all live by our own moral compasses, use yours.

 

I'm good as long as I don't feel I'm unjustly being taken advantage of big time; if it's just a little, I can live with it.

 

Good thread.

 

Not to ruin my serious response, I thought WWJD was "What would Jaco do?"

[davio]

Originally posted by Bob Gollihur (bob@gollihur.com):

"What would Jaco do?"

Probably dump his medication in the sink, mumble something about supporting his kid and try to jump on a stage.

 

But I could be wrong...I didn't know him.

[Steve Lawson]

WWJD? (What would Jesus do?)

I'm not sure that's a particularly helpful question to ask - mainly because it assumes there's only one way to respond here. I think it's more important to be aware of all the factors involved and try to act ethically/morally/righteously. It's not the same thing as going through some mental gymnastics about the personality of Jesus. It's about knowing me, and my strengths and weaknesses, my history, my relationship with the people around me. What the people I'm playing with/for need, and what I need.

 

That's a far more complex and open ended mental process than just asking WWJD. Maybe a better question along similar lines is 'what advice would Jesus give?' - which would probably end up being 'hey, it's your call' - there are good and ethical reasons to carry on playing for free in a situation where you feel like you're being taken for a ride, and good and ethical reasons to quit. There's a right way and a wrong way in either direction.

 

For me, I don't make any distinction between 'christian' and 'non-christian' music. 'My' music is an expression of me, who I am, what I'm about and what I hold dear. Playing music is also my job. If, indeed, I believe that in a particular situation my primary audience is of one, then I can play anywhere at anytime, and don't need to waste my energy, time and resources in playing in a situation where I'm neither helping anyone else or myself. Sometimes I'm too tired, sometimes I'm too busy doing other things. Doing the washing up at home may in the long run be a more useful way to spend your time than playing bass in church.

 

Don't get hung up on the importance of music in a church setting. People can live without it, and what music there is can happen OK without bass. If you need to leave it well alone, do so in good conscience, just do so with regard for your fellow musicians and the people you're working with. Treating the people involved right whichever decision you make is a far far bigger deal than the actual choice you make.

 

Steve

www.stevelawson.net

[davio]

A very good point^^

[MattC]

There is something about music wherein non-musicians seem to think that musicians make their craft simply for the love of the art. While this may seem true on the surface, remember that musicians need to eat, be housed, and make a living just like anyone else.

 

As far as musical talent being a gift from God:

This is very true and all-too-easily forgotten. Of course, every talent you have is a divine gift as well. The skilled tradesmen which built the church at which you performed were definately gifted by the Lord but they wouldn't hesitate to ask for compensation for their work, and neither should any musician. To perform for charity's sake is noble, as long as you attend to your needs. God grants us the talents we have so that we can use them to take care of our temporal needs and those needs of others.

[LLroomtempJ]

Originally posted by Yogi:

It's not just people at Christian benefits who take musicians for granted these days. It's everywhere - indifference to the arts is part of our culture now.

wow...everything that needed to be said has been said. BUT, just to share with your guys:

 

Remember that pride is what comes before the fall. Looking for the approval of man ("You're an excellent bass player, i liked that one run...") should not be our goal as musicians, however, creating an atmosphere that is conducive to the magnification of God as well as giving God our best in praise and worship as musicians is what we should strive for.

 

I got that word while attending an album release party this saturday night for a Holy Hip Hop artist named Todd Bangs. good stuff.

 

jason

[dsanders]

I have to constantly remind myself that if its ministry I really play for an audience of One (God). If that is true, then why do I allow the way others act to affect what I do or how I feel about things.

 

My playing & serving in ministry is about dieing to self & living for Him. Its about being obedient to the call regardless of how I feel or how others react. Its not about me & its not about them. At 6:00 AM tomorrow morning Ill have the honor of waking up & doing it all over again trusting that Hell be glorified, not by how people respond, but by my obedience.

 

 

Wow, now I know why from day one I have felt comforitable around this forum. I had no idea that alot of us were family.

 

Also, now that Mark has said the above I know where my next cabinet is coming from. Always feels good to buy from a brother in Christ. When we don't get paid or recognized for playing in church , remember that it is all about the pursuit of God.

[Steve Lawson]

Remember that pride is what comes before the fall. Looking for the approval of man ("You're an excellent bass player, i liked that one run...") should not be our goal as musicians

true, but don't beat yourself up over people digging your playing! It's a good thing. False modesty is a curse in the church, and feeling good because people like what you're doing isn't pride.

 

I really like getting the approval of the people around me, and I give as much encouragement to the people around me as I can... I'm human, not some kind of machine, and I'm quite happy to balance my music being a gift from God with feeling pretty stoked when people like what I do...

 

As that great theologian John Mellencamp once said - 'I know there's a balance, I see it when I swing past'.

 

Steve

www.stevelawson.net

[Phil W]

Yes, I ws talking with a fellow church musician about two types of worship music playing - the difference between playing an instrument in a supportive way to provide the foundation for others to worship and worshipping through the instrument (though in reality it's always a bit of both). Don't knock the latter - listen to John Coltrane!

Out talents are a gift from God and as long as we're honest, sincere and worshipful when we play, we can sometimes play the most extreme stuff and it's appropriate (guess it depends what kind of worship situation) as long as avoid the ego.

Most of my most fluid technical moments and inspired bass moments have been in church and almost all were unplanned.

People complimenting your bass playing are at least sharing positivity and love and that's what we all want.

There are some very meaningful posts on this thread, what a great forum this is!

[jimb213]

Personally, I would love to be paid to be a part of my worship band full-time. Right now, I'm a volunteer musician (although the church does pay me a bit when I shoot/direct/edit videos for sunday service since I make my living in media and freelance work).

 

Our youth band is really hot right now (3 of the 4 of us have been playing together for about a decade now in various rock bands), and our youth pastor wants us to start playing out at other churches and youth events soon. It could definitely become something where we make money down the road. Hopefully enough that we can make it a full-time job.

 

One of my favorite bands, Further Seems Forever, is a band full of Christians that isn't a "Christian Band." On the FAQ at their website, they say as much, and there's a statement to the effect that they wouldn't feel right being paid for ministry, so they don't view their band as one. But that got me to thinking about pastors, ministers, church administrators, etc... as someone mentioned above. If you're obedient (something I still need lots of work on ), God will provide. That provision could be in the form of payment for leading others in worship.

 

If being paid for playing allows you to keep doing God's work, then don't feel ashamed for taking money for using His gifts to you.

[Steve Lawson]

If you're obedient (something I still need lots of work on), God will provide.

you hope... How do you explain that to faithful people who have lost everything, or are in debt, failing to feed and clothes themselves or their kids? There are lots of them.

 

The responsibility for providing falls at the feet of those who hold the purse strings, and if they are asking you to do too much and not paying enough for you to live, then self-preservation is the better part of piety.

 

Steve

www.stevelawson.net

[Danzilla]

To me, the music is all ministry. I draw two distinctions: Playing/ministering at my home church; and playing/ministering at other locations/events/etc. At my own church- it's on a volunteer basis, part of my offereing of my time and talents to my parish. I'm not looking for compensation there (even though I know that some people are paid, mainly those who are full time directors or otherwise professional musicians), but giving a sacrifice of praise through the instrument and my voice. On the other hand for the last five years or so, I've played in Christian rock bands. While that too is a ministry, it is nice to be compensated for that. I don't have a set fee; we accept what they are willing to give. Never underestimate the power of the "love offereing". The workman is worth his hire. However, there have been times we've played for free because we knew we needed to be there to offer what we have to that community; and times we've been given money, and given it right back to them because they needed it more than we did. And most of the money we've gotten from that has gone right back into the ministry- promotional materials, recording time, CD reproduction, etc.

Some have said the reason Christian musicians don't get much money is because we're "expected" to give the Gospel for free. Freely recieved, so freely give. And in humility, we often don't think our music is worth as much as it could be, in a dollar sense. Some view that if it is free, it isn't worth much, so why go let alone give money. There's nothing wrong with being paid for your services, especially if that is how you've decided to make your living. I'm blessed enough to have a good full-time job; while I'd like to make the music full-time, that door hasn't quite been opened to me.

I've seen Disciple- they played at our music festival last year (guess you could say we opened up for them!). Great bunch of guys- just totally genuine. Even if you're not into their style of music, talking with them and seeing how they relate to people onstage and after the show is worth checking them out. I think they're having a new record out sometime soon, too.

[PhilMan99]

For me personally, getting paid to play bass takes the fun out of it. On the other hand, I have a "day job", and am likely about to quit my own Church group...

 

...anyway, I wish more "key" people *were* paid - the priest is paid! The volunteers I see at most Churches (not just musicians), while nice, tend to be rather "lack-lustre". With dwindling attendance, churches would do well to at least spend a bit more on decent music. Listening to a bunch of out-of-tune singers, or a guitarist that can't keep the beat is *not* the best way to keep people coming back.

 

Again, I play only for fun. As for guilt, though, I don't see any reason to feel guilty when the supposedly "most spiritual" people are themselves paid. Volunteer work is great, but it is hard to get the dedication required for good music (practice!) from musicians who only play "when they feel like it".

[badgerbass]

All of the ethical and religious questions aside, the root cause of this problem is playing for free and feeling unappreciated. In most cases, if people get something for free, they undervalue it. If there is a free concert in the park, for example, they might wander in, listen a bit, and then leave. On the other hand, if they paid money to go to the concert, they are more apt to stay and listen through the whole thing.

 

I have been in a few situations where our band was playing for free and the shows were poorly attended.

 

Bottom line is: if you continue giving away your music, it will be underappreciated (whether it is Christian music or any other kind). If you can accept that, then fine. Personally, I know how much time and effort musicians put into the performance and I think they should be compensated for that. We gotta live, too, ya know.

 

Guy

[davio]

Originally posted by Danzilla:

Some have said the reason Christian musicians don't get much money is because we're "expected" to give the Gospel for free. Freely recieved, so freely give.

The Gospel is free, your music is not. They pay for a concert, you can give them the Gospel for free while you're there. You can go out before and after the show and give out the Gospel. You don't have to go to their church or venue to give out the Gospel...you can do that in your own neighborhood. A ministry is not the same as the Gospel. A ministry is only a vehicle for the Gospel and if it requires money to opperate, it needs compensation. They are paying for the ministry.

[saxofunk]

Well said badgerbass.

 

I have been watching this thread, trying to come up with a reasonable response, and you covered it well.

 

My experience comes from playing sax in the same church for over 5 years. I enjoy the church, the music, fellow band members, and they have never offered me a cent... FWIW, the rhythm section is paid for their time and service. I am thankful they are, it keeps them coming back and we have developed a very consistent sound over the last couple years. Prior to that, when no one was paid, personnel changed regularly and the band we had at the Saturday night service was rarely the one we had for our two Sunday morning services.

 

Personally, although I am not paid, I can credit this as an opportunity that made me grow and learn. I have become very comfortable playing live. I have gained a confidence in my playing that I never had before. I have been forced away from written music (darn classical training) and depend on guitar charts and my ear to improvise harmonies, copy vocal parts, add punches and accents with the rhythm section, etc. Mostly, I get to have a great time and play for something I see as a worthy cause.

 

At this church, I play for free and don't expect otherwise. If/when I change churches I will ask about compensation. Playing costs money. In five years I've invested over $400 in horn maintenance and supplies, and I'm overdue for some additional maintenance. There was also $100 spent on a mic that would work with a wireless system the church had, with a verbal agreement that I get to take that system home one day (It's an old A-T 1100 system, not impressive but quite functional). I won't push for the system when the time comes, but it helps to think that it's available to me.

 

Material goods aside, playing for worship is very meaningful to me, as it clearly is to those who have posted here. Compensation is nice, it covers the expenses of transportation and gear, but it shouldn't be the deal maker or the deal breaker. It's a personal issue, covered on oodles of internet forums (and probably 2000 years prior to the internet), and no one will force an answer on you.

[MattC]

There was either an article or editorial about the same subject, PhilMan, in a recent Catholic mag that I read. The Church I attend is fortunate to have a fairly active music ministry with the 2 volunteer choirs (adult and youth) and several instrumentalists (which, I hope, may count me among their rank soon), and a backup pianist.

Some other Churches I attend periodically have volunteer orchestras (for special events) and full SATB choirs. There are other churches, though, that just seem to have a breathy organ and a sorta-tenor-baritonish leader and about 10 song titles.

 

Good music at services works in such a way as to compliment the worship. It is not outright visible but rather just works, much like a good bassline. With the latter churches, though, the music takes away from teh worship in that worshippers are acutely aware of what is going on, what notes are missed, that the tempo is too fast, etc. Perhaps this is why so many bass players are active in the Church- they fundamentally understand the role music is to play...

[ATM]

When I played in church, I was in high school and living at home, so my financial needs weren't high on my worry list.

 

Saturday night Mass, we had a choral group. Somehow, I was enlisted, and had a great time with it. Consisted of two guitarists, a flutist, pianist, a couple of other singers, and me. 2 of the group were actual music teachers, so we did have some solid background. None of us were financially compensated, but I don't think that any of us ever thought about it. We would arrive at church about an hour early, practice, and have a good Mass.

 

Here is where I think that my experience differs. My fellow musicians would thank me for playing, and members of the congregation would frequently say that I should turn up the volume. Good thing for the big double doors so I could get my head through. I also remember my father, a very devout Catholic, being more than happy to help me with my gear early to church.

 

Currently, I am looking for a church where I can play. The search continues, as being in Heaven's waiting room, the church memberships are not quite as young.

 

Here's an interesting point of view:

Makin' Music For Money

By: Alex Harvey 1974

 

When I woke up this mornin'

I was tired as I could be

I think I was countin' my money

When I should a' been countin' sheep

 

My agent he just called me

And told me what I should be

If I would make my music for money

Instead of makin' music for me

 

Chorus:

I said, "I know that this may sound funny

But money don't mean nothin' to me

I won't make my music for money

No, I'm gonna make my music for me"

 

He said, "The people only buy the love songs

Rock n' Roll and not too long"

He said, "Son you got to be commercial

If you want to turn the people on"

 

And I said, "Turnin' on the people

Now that's a beautiful place to be

But if I spend my time makin' them up a rhyme

Well, who's gonna turn on me?"

 

(Repeat Chorus)

 

Bridge:

 

Well now I went up to Country

And I'll tell you all about the scene

I found a place with much charm and much grace

That wasn't touched by the music machine

 

Whoa, the people were havin' a good time

Makin' music all day long

And nobody cared if they ever got paid

One penny for playin' a song [song]

 

Now, if you would release that on an album, would you be required to pay royalties?

 

ATM

[MattC]

Wow, ATM- a mass with a bassist. That'd be a dream come true. I could do it, too, except for my damn job working me weekends...

 

Keep looking...