getz out Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 No reverse engineering here, he? http://www.behringer.com/vp1/VP1_medium.jpg http://www.behringer.com/BLE100/BLE100_medium.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraub Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 And just what are you implying here? Peace, wraub I'm a lot more like I am now than I was when I got here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lug Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Next you will be claiming Vanilla Ice ripped off someone in that "Ice, Ice, Baby" song! You can stop now -jeremyc STOP QUOTING EVERY THING I SAY!!! -Bass_god_offspring lug, you should add that statement to you signature.-Tenstrum I'm not sure any argument can top lug's. - Sweet Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onelove Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Haha yeah there is a discussion about that over in the g****r forums too. Here is the link. I find it sort of funny that Behringer keeps making such blatant rip-offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeronyne Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I saw the display...it was quite impressive: http://rhee.net/LDLD/stomp_big.jpg I am completely conflicted in terms of how I feel about this latest stunt by Behringer. These things are 20-40 bucks US, I think. I feel like a hypocrite because I sort of feel like this is a ripoff of Roland and EH, but I don't quite feel the same way about boutique manufacturers that create, let's say, a nearly exact '62 Jazz Bass. The fact that a ripoff is an improvement or of a discontinued item doesn't make it any less of a ripoff. And the obvious attempt at misrepresentation or "inference" in the branding of these doesn't make it illegal as long as these is no infringement. Nor is this something unique to Behringer. They just have a lot more nerve. So I'm internally wondering what's worse: Making something look the same with different guts (pseudo-misrepresentation) or making something look different with nearly the same function/guts (true pirate reverse-engineering). I can't offer an opinion that doesn't make me look hypocritical. It's definitely something to think about. "For instance" is not proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I saw those pedals at NAMM. They look almost exactly like other brands of pedals. But they don't sound like them. On the other hand, they're selling them for $20. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 Wow, at that pricepoint... jeez... the kiddies are going to have even more pedals! AH! Nice observation 0-9. No one seems to jump up and down regarding the Maxon pedals or Keeley's work. Nor does it seem to effect Mr. Sadowsky or Mr. Lull. I have used Behringer gear with good results. I put that use in my "karma to burn" category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClarkW Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I guess I can see what the fuss is about, but I don't agree with it. I buy generic prescription drugs. I buy generic over-the-counter drugs. I buy generic jeans. I use open source software. (Plenty of open source software is motivated by a desire to fill the place of proprietary software, not to come up with a great new innovation.) If the difference between Product A and Product B was that Product B cost one-fifth as much but was slightly lower quality, I'd go for it in a flash. If one record company was selling all of their artist's CDs for $2 instead of $15, you'd buy them, wouldn't you? Especially if you knew that the artists were getting the same $$$? And what if they were selling recordings of public domain classical music? One is the Utah Symphony, $2. One is the London Symphony, $15. I know which one I'd buy. But maybe I'm tainted by the fact that I own Behringer gear. Sure, the mixers' effects channels make a little bit of noise. Sure, the V-Amp doesn't sound EXACTLY like all of those amp models. Sure, the FCB1010 MIDI footpedal won't wipe my butt when I crap (I can't find anything else to complain about). But it all cost a pittance compared to competing gear, and in case the world hasn't noticed, musicians rarely suffer from a cash overflow. My hat's off to Behringer. If it's seen that what they are doing is legal, then more power to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 They've been doing this long enough so that if it were illegal, I'm sure they would have been sued by now. Or maybe they have been. I couldn't tell you. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraub Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 While I have not heard these pedals, I must agree with Sam and Clark on this. I also have conflicting feelings about "reverse-engineering" and the outrageously cheap foreign made products that abound in the marketplace. But... Recently, a time of music-career related need overwhelmed my diminished cash flow, and I purchased a piece of Behringer gear. Given other options, and more time, I might have chosen differently, but the realities of the situation were the sole reason for the purchase. Thus far, I have been quite pleased. Even bearing in mind the reportedly spotty customer service (a complaint I have also heard about some more established and "reputable" American companies), the features and construction quality are unbelievable at the price point, and it sounds good too. I'll use it until something better comes along, at a price I can afford. The same reason I bought my first Ibanez bass, and my first Peavey amp, back when those companies were considered design thieves and inferior manufacturerers by some. I'll probably check out some of those effects as well. And, if something sounds good to me, I might just buy it. That's the ultimate point to me. Peace, wraub I'm a lot more like I am now than I was when I got here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyD Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Originally posted by jeremy c: They've been doing this long enough so that if it were illegal, I'm sure they would have been sued by now. Or maybe they have been. I couldn't tell you.Yup, they have been sued by Mackie. My site | Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Originally posted by LizzyD: Originally posted by jeremy c: They've been doing this long enough so that if it were illegal, I'm sure they would have been sued by now. Or maybe they have been. I couldn't tell you.Yup, they have been sued by Mackie.And what was the result? Their mixers look identical to Mackie Mixers. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbn Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 You can fairly easily get DIY kits for a lot of the older effects. I'm looking at building a compressor (from a kit) and maybe attempting a distortion pedal ala Big Muff after that. The schematics can be easily found with a google search. I might check out a vintage distortion pedal... but I've got a huge GAS pain and should have more to report in the next few weeks as I pull together some cash and sort through some old gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyD Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Originally posted by jeremy c: Originally posted by LizzyD: Originally posted by jeremy c: They've been doing this long enough so that if it were illegal, I'm sure they would have been sued by now. Or maybe they have been. I couldn't tell you.Yup, they have been sued by Mackie.And what was the result? Their mixers look identical to Mackie Mixers.Some quick Googling, and lots of sifting through more discussion about it than factual reporting, it appears the Mackie/Behringer lawsuit was settled. I also read on the Sweetwater site that Aphex sued Behringer and won. Not sure what the story is on that. My site | Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 If you build an effect from a circuit diagram, you will probably end up spending a lot more money than just buying the effect in the first place. But you will learn things which will be priceless. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumpelstiltskin. Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Originally posted by ClarkW: [QB]I buy generic prescription drugs... I buy generic over-the-counter drugs...I buy generic jeans.[/url] patent law is a funny thing. patents are valid only for a certain amount of time. therefore, the generic drugs you're buying are certainly copies of name brand drugs, but they're legally produced only because the legal protection of the intellectual effort put into them (commonly known as intellectual property, or IP) has expired. same as with a '62 jazz bass. that's over forty years old. any innovation inolved in it has long since passed into the public domain and can be legally copied ad nauseum. it's choice whether that's cheating or impressive. (imagine having the stones to say, "i want to improve what is widely regarded as the best electric bass ever designed.") i'm sure behringer is aware of what circuits involved have entered the public domain (and have altered the others enough to satisfy the lawyers). at that point it's your choice whether you want to buy cheap plastic crap from china. but that's a personal decision, like tone, that never gets further than a pissing match. I use open source software.this, obviously, doesn't apply, because open source software is designed from the beginning with no intentions of protecting intellectual property. it is predicated on a completely opposite assumption. Especially if you knew that the artists were getting the same $$$? And what if they were selling recordings of public domain classical music? One is the Utah Symphony, $2. One is the London Symphony, $15. I know which one I'd buy.so since you're not going to buy a real small stone, anyway, and EH is not going to get your money, you may as well buy the behringer? as for which classical CD, which is SACD? which performance and recording is better? where is the value in each? too many assumptions make for poor arguments. But it all cost a pittance compared to competing gear, and in case the world hasn't noticed, musicians rarely suffer from a cash overflow.but that's really the crux of all of your arguments. you essentially agree with the commoditization of music gear, regardless of the impact on quality. you simply want to get through the door without any regard for where the door leads, what it means, or what it takes to get through it. that is your choice, but i don't think it makes for a particularly consistent argument. i think you'll find that if your work -- and therefore your livlihood doing what you love -- were being stolen in such a manner, you may have the impetus to develop a more rigorous argument. robb. because i like people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClarkW Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Don't get me wrong, I think there's a market for high-end, high-quality pioneering material. I could probably play my parts on a $300 bass, but I have chosen to amass an arsenal of $1k+ instruments. I think it matters there. I didn't have my eye surgery done by the lowest bidder, either. But if I feel that the sacrifice of quality is offset by the reduction in price, am I somehow discrediting the man who created the higher priced, higher quality alternative? No. I'm simply telling him that his product doesn't work for me. Sure, it might make it tougher for him to compete, but he probably got where he is by being smart in the first place. But then again, I'm a capitalist and a libertarian. If my livelihood were being threatened by a competitor, I'd probably get off my comfy chair and figure out a way to get my chunk of the market back. I do believe in intellectual property. If someone wants to sue Behringer, let them do so. If Behringer infringes, let them pay dearly. But if they don't, tough beans. I work in the software industry for a company that makes plenty of proprietary software. We're doing our damndest to adapt to a marketplace that is swaying strongly in the direction of open source. If we weren't, we'd be dead in the water already... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbn Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Originally posted by jeremy c: If you build an effect from a circuit diagram, you will probably end up spending a lot more money than just buying the effect in the first place. But you will learn things which will be priceless.My intention is to possibly save a little money ($42 for the kit, plus a switch and housing, probably $60 total) for a compressor similar to the Ross design. I could get an MXR DynaComp (based loosely on the same circuit) for around that, and maybe I will eventually. But, as Jeremy pointed out, I will learn things that are priceless. I vaguely know how to solder and end up paying $8-9 for 6-12" patch cables and scrapping 20 foot cables when the 1/4" plugs go bad. With some soldering practice I'll be able to make/repair my own cables in the future. With some effect building practice, I'll be able to repair my own effects when they go bad (at least the analog ones) and maybe do a few mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St_Genesius Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 I'll dinfinitely be picking up the Big Muff copy. Why not? My Les Paul is fake too. For sale: 1992 or 1993 Carvin LB20F fretless 4-string with lines. Black with black hardware. Good player, fair amount of wear. $250 shipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stackimo Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Hats off for zeronyne's reply. "Some people are like "slinkies". They're not really good for anything; but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 robb, I'm totally with you on this. I'm tired of arguing out Behringer's dubious business practices, though I'd hoped that we'd have seen a little more thought before posting on this subject. Behringer have copied entire designs and they have been sued successfully. Unfortunately it's very difficult to protect your products against this kind of copying, due to the cost and complexities of worldwide intellectual property rights. So Behringer continues to make copies of other manufacturers' equipment and then sells them for less because it don't have any research and development costs. Isn't that a somewhat parasitic and fundamentally unsustainable business model? Alex Barefaced Ltd - ultra lightweight, high ouput, toneful bass cabs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbn Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 A dirt cheap BDDI ??? They are showing a list price of $39.99 for these things and come out and say they are modeled after the SansAmp! That is $140 less than what I paid for the real thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted February 1, 2005 Author Share Posted February 1, 2005 It's a BBDI (Bass Bass DI?), not a BDDI. Ha, the Bass BDI21. That's hilarious, actually. They have the Big Mac, we have the Big Mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted February 1, 2005 Author Share Posted February 1, 2005 It's pretty funny when you think about the fact they're modeling a modeler. That's like covering a cover song... how many times have I heard, "I think we should cover a Hendrix song. How about All Along the Watchtower?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 This company is scary. Now I feel bad about owning two of their little mixers.....unless that I find out that they made a settlement with Mackie when they were sued. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassric Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 The prices that Boss and others are asking for some of their pedals are also very, very scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Originally posted by bassric: The prices that Boss and others are asking for some of their pedals are also very, very scary.Really? Full-blown multi-FX for a few hundred dollars? Or discrete pedals that may not be cheap compared to a cheap bass but not exactly pricey compared to most players' main instruments (especially as the tonal variation from adding good effect is much greater than between any two basses)? And with the thriving trade on eBay you can buy, enjoy, and then sell used pedals without it costing any more than the shipping and auction fees. Alex Barefaced Ltd - ultra lightweight, high ouput, toneful bass cabs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbn Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Originally posted by bassric: The prices that Boss and others are asking for some of their pedals are also very, very scary.I have to agree. For example: Boss TU-2 (tuner pedal). List Price: $149.50 Musicians Friend: $79.99 Behringer TU100 List Price: $24.99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudcat Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 One more note on these pedals: If you visit the Behringer Website you will see that in their product descriptions they specifically identify the pedals/amps that their knock-offs are based upon. As I stated in the thread on the guitar forum, I suspect Uli's attornies have confirmed Behringer's legal standing to manufacture and market these products. I just wonder if Uli had any correspondence with EH, Boss & Tech 21 prior to introducing these things. Mudcat's music on Soundclick "Work hard. Rock hard. Eat hard. Sleep hard. Grow big. Wear glasses if you need 'em."-The Webb Wilder Credo- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassric Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Last time I checked for the Boss OC 3, it was way too much money for the use I would make of it. The tuner example is also a very good one. And let's not even talk about the Sansamp ($450 CDN). And the last pedal (boss bass chorus) I bought through Ebay is not working anymore (just to say that these things happen). My point is that through their pricing strategies, these companies have exposed themselves to that kind of rip-off. Would the prices for the originals be between the Behringer's and the originals', I would without hesitation buy the original ones. But for now, I am seriously considering that Octaver pedal that I will only use sporadically anyway, before I manage to save enough money for the EH POG (talk about something overpriced, but still, I will buy one...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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