What exactly is 'selling out' as far as music is concerned?

[TShakazBlackRoots]

Formerly favorite group(insert group name here) was better when they were on an independent label, they sold out when they signed a major label contract. If a group is played on the radio, they can't be good. The best music is underground.

This above, is a quote by Jeremy C.

 

I was watching the bio of Shania Twain (don't ask...I watch most artists' bios ), and there was this 'beef' between her and the traditional Nashville country artists. They felt she was making Country 'too commercial', making it lose it's soul.

 

I've heard this argument in Reggae (Marley, UB40 etc), Jazz (Kenny G etc), in the Blues, Rap, Hip Hop etc...Infact, in almost all genres of music.

I believe all artists want their works to be heard/seen by as many people as possible; a good thing, right? Why then is this called 'selling out'?

 

I am aware that going 'mainstream' usually 'dilutes' most genres, but can't there be a balance struck where even so called 'Traditional' or 'Hardcore' artists are celebrated in the mainstream, without necessarily being seen as 'sell outs'?

In otherwards, give 'underground' artists as much exposure/support in the mainstream, let the fans decide who to enjoy. But then again, what would happen to the vibtant underground scene??

[lug]

50% comforming to a broader standard or "diluting" as you say, 50% jealousy by the one calling "sellout!"

[MattC]

To have truly "sold out," an artist must change something important in order to become sucessful.

 

For many astists, this simply means changing the genre (or, more accurately, watering it down).

[jeremy c]

All my comments were tongue in cheek, so please don't interpret the quote as to be what I believe.

 

Music fans are very fickle and will often turn against their heroes when the rest of the world discovers them.

 

There is selling out and there is the perception that someone must have sold out. These two things are quite different. Also many entertainers who are seen to be hopeless sellouts by "more aware people" may indeed actually be expressing their true selves on stage.

 

For instance, I hate Celine Dion for wasting a fantastic voice on insipid material. But maybe she is merely an insipid person and truly loves her material. And of course she would say that I don't understand what she feels and who am I to judge her and she would be correct.

[DaveAG]

when you are turned into a product as opposed to a musician....that's when I think the line is crossed...

 

cheers

[zeronyne]

I don't know...I think the term sellout is a cop out that is used when someone doesn't like someone else but can't articulate why because the reason is internal to the critic. Jealousy, differences in taste, a perceived "betrayal" by the artists...these are the situations where I've heard the label "sellout" used.

 

I've heard people call Metallica sellouts. Why? Because they decided to do shorter songs with less technically-intricate parts? Because they cut their hair? Because more people like them now?

 

Kenny G? He's the master of his genre...I'd hardly consider him a sellout. And Jeremy's points abotu Celine Dion are spot on...who's to judge?

 

I'll tell you who the sellouts are: people who have to be "exclusive" by listening only to underground bands and to rip on bands that "make it". Get a grip. Have a backbone. Quit following your little clique of nasty little self-confidence vacuums. It's OK to like popular artists and songs. It's OK to like songs that even non-musicians and non-fanboiz enjoy.

[rockinredneck69]

Originally posted by zeronyne:

I don't know...I think the term sellout is a cop out that is used when someone doesn't like someone else but can't articulate why because the reason is internal to the critic. Jealousy, differences in taste, a perceived "betrayal" by the artists...these are the situations where I've heard the label "sellout" used.

 

I've heard people call Metallica sellouts. Why? Because they decided to do shorter songs with less technically-intricate parts? Because they cut their hair? Because more people like them now?

 

Kenny G? He's the master of his genre...I'd hardly consider him a sellout. And Jeremy's points abotu Celine Dion are spot on...who's to judge?

 

I'll tell you who the sellouts are: people who have to be "exclusive" by listening only to underground bands and to rip on bands that "make it". Get a grip. Have a backbone. Quit following your little clique of nasty little self-confidence vacuums. It's OK to like popular artists and songs. It's OK to like songs that even non-musicians and non-fanboiz enjoy.

WORD!!!

[Steve Lawson]

I tend to think of selling out in terms of integrity. For some people music is just their job, and they pursue success the way others would a promotion, so the hustle is to get gigs and write tunes that will get them gigs, or play covers that get them gigs etc. If a band appears to make the switch from a band that 'seem' to be playing the music they love to one that is playing music more closely aligned to what either the record buying public are already consuming or the radio formatters are already playing, then that's often seen as a sellout.

 

The problems with this are manifold, given that a) musicians just get 'better', and as they get better it may be that their craft is honed to the point where what they do is going to be received favourably by more people. b) most bands don't really want to stay in the same place for too long - I certainly wouldn't want to be putting out identical albums time after time - and change will probably cause a band to lean in the direction of the music they are listening to. If they are radio listeners, the music is going to head in that direction. c) as Jeremy was hinting at in the initial quote, there's the crazy equation of success and selling out - a band sells out when their CDs 'sell out' in the shops... Clearly rubbish.

 

I think the problems arise when record companies get involved in the recording process. It's sometimes possible to track a definite and seemingly calculated shift towards a particular market by a band that may be seen as at best a compromise between their 'natural' sound and the radio friendly pop formula imposed by the people with the cheque book. A prime example would seem to be Dave Matthews - his breakthrough album was 'Under The Table And Dreaming' - acoustic, intricate, adventurous, lyrically intriguing and fiercely original. Each successive album has drifted further and further into stadium rock territory. The stadium bit may be a clue there - it might just be the Dave is sensible enough to write songs that sound OK through the PA systems in basketball halls... but it certainly sounds like a quest for a particular chunk of the market, an apparently self-defeating one given the unsatisfying results and the initial success of 'Under The Table...'

 

But even then, definitions of sell out depend on what the band are claiming to do. If someone is apparently chasing airplay and sales whilst claiming to be 'for real' and 'all about the music', then I'd say there was a lack of honesty and integrity there, but for a lot of musicians, that's all part of the deal - you say what the press want to hear, write what the radio want to play, and reap your pittance from the millions your record company make.

 

Seems a little self defeating to me (why Dave Matthews hasn't started his own label and gone fully indie is beyond me...) but it is a complex set of relationships to be sure.

 

Meanwhile I have a solo bass album out on my own label, and I'm fo' real, fo shizzle!

 

 

Steve

www.stevelawson.net

[tnb]

Not playing as well as you can for whatever gig you have is selling out.

 

I would rather quit.

[RobT]

Good thread!

 

Seems like there are a lot of factors at play when one uses the term selling out. Jealousy and envy, being unable to articulate, flat out musical growth that everyone is not going to understand all play a part. Its okay to like stuff that maybe commercially popular and its also okay to like stuff that is more underground. Music should be liked or disliked on its own personal merit (your own tastes) rather than if it was popular or sold a lot of copies.

 

Just my .02 cents adjusted for inflation.

[StinkMonkey]

ZERONYNE is right on the money. Everyone of us thinks our music is better than almost everyone elses' and don't understand why it hasn't happened to us. I'm no different. Yet who of us wouldn't want to be able to make a living (or maybe even get rich and famous as in the 'Dream') just playing our music? But sign a contract and your labled a sell out. It's just jealously. Pure and simple. Am I jealous? HELL YES!!!! Would I 'sell out' if thousands or millions of people wanted to hear and buy my music? Double Dog HELL YES!!!! If you can do it, go for it and live the dream and to hell with anyone who calls you a sell out.

[tnb]

oops!

[bottle12am]

I had the great fortune of meeting Victor Wooten in the early 90's. I'd met him after a Bela Fleck show at Tipitina's in New Orleans; he was kind enough to spend a good 5-10 minutes chatting with me after most of the autograph hounds left.

 

He gave me some serious words to live by.

 

I asked how could he stand playing these clubs, when Bon Jovi (who I had just seen) were selling out 15000 seat arenas. I told him that the Bon Jovi bass player (whom my brain cells refuse to let me recall-- Von Such? John Such? whatever) wasn't half the bassist he was, yet he had millions of adoring fans.

 

Victor said these words, very humbly:

 

"His (Such's) job is to sell millions of records and thousands of seats. If he can do that, and be happy, and keep his record company happy, good for him. He's doing his job.

 

"My (Wooten's) job is to sell thousands of records and hundreds of seats. As long as I can do that, and my record company is happy with me, then I'm happy."

 

That opened up a world of humility for me.

 

His words also helped me gather my definition of a 'sellout'. A sellout is someone that performs a task he/she is not happy with just for the glory or the paycheck.

 

But if what you are doing makes others happy, and keeps you happy, then you should never consider yourself a 'sellout'.

[BenLoy]

Interestingly, Alec Jon Such isn't with Bon Jovi anymore as far as I know. Bon Jovi is now graced with the presence of Hugh McDonald, a fantastic pro's pro of a bassist whom had "ghosted" on Bon Jovi albums for years (that's him playing on "Livin' On A Prayer").

 

He's definately at least three-quarters of a bassist that Victor is.

[davebrownbass]

Great Vic Wooten Story, bottle12am.

 

There is also the problem of youthful invention becoming stale.

 

Dave Matthews may have used up all of his original inspiration, inspiration gained by years of life and learning, on his early material. Then, when he feels the need (or is contractually obligated to) produce more music, he may have less to say.

 

Jaco felt the same problem...his first album is full of the stuff he worked on for all his youth. I won't say that everything he did subsequently was just a derivative of that, but it certainly made some things fall under his fingers more naturally.

 

Many artists go into reclusion after a successful full album, or wait to write until they think they have something to say. Michelle Shocked comes to mind, for some reason.

 

Other folks just keep putting less valid music out when their inspiration runs dry. That could be called "selling out."

 

There are examples of people who live life between recording and touring; who work to make themselves more complete people. They bring new insights into their music. Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Peter Gabriel, Pete Townshend, Roger Waters, all those Fleetwood Mac folks, and many, many others (even ZZ Top!) still have important stuff to say on later albums.

 

Of course, you could probably point to one or two records of any of these people early in their career when they were "at their peak." For example, Pete Townshend has written many, many recordings, but isn't "Who's Next" a standout? That doesn't mean "Face Dances" is a sellout; however, many people thought that all their reunion tours were.

 

Makes you wonder about someone like Beethoven. His symphonies move from brilliant Mozartian Classicism to something completely new, inventive and powerful. Of course, he kept sketchbooks of themes and worked on ideas for, sometimes, more than a decade until he found what he considered the exact right medium (quartet, piano, orchestra) for the fully developed idea.

[lug]

I would play a single 440 Hz note for as long as the sustain of my bass could take it if someone would pay me to do it. Call me a prostitute...I JUST DON'T CARE!

 

(runs crying from the forum)

[erikmag]

There is also the element of giving away your music for movies, comercials, etc. to anyone who is willing to pay for it, regardless if you like the cause or not.

[TShakazBlackRoots]

You've all given good, solid answers. You've made it alot clearer. Thank you.

More opinions on the matter will be 'appreciloved'.

[butcherNburn]

Sometimes artist music changes trough their careers. Often a first album consists of material that they have been playing for a long time before it's recorded. It may also have been written when they were younger, poorer, and influcened (perhaps even under or not under the influence)by different sources. As they become successfull: more money, more studio time, less time to accumulate new material, and possible being more or less mature, the music is going to change. A young person with their heart pounding out of their chest, and full of passion, operating superbly with limited skills and experience, will produce different music than an older, more experienced, person that may be trying to support an empire.

 

And sometimes people just sell out, even before they record their first song.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by lug:

I would play a single 440 Hz note for as long as the sustain of my bass could take it if someone would pay me to do it.

Really - 26 frets or a 6-string?

 

Alex

[lug]

Originally posted by C.Alexander Claber:

Originally posted by lug:

I would play a single 440 Hz note for as long as the sustain of my bass could take it if someone would pay me to do it.

Really - 26 frets or a 6-string?

 

Alex

You caught me. Yes I'd even play a gu***ar if someone paid me.....I'm such a ho.

[Warlock1016]

Sellout: In my book, compromising personal integrity for personal gain.

 

That said, I will now steal Mick Foley's (see biography HAVE A NICE DAY!)three points.

 

1) I enjoy playing music, specifically bass, whenever possible.

2) I enjoy playing music for lots of people whenever possible.

3) I enjoy being paid well for doing so whenever possible.

 

Therefore, no matter what kind of trash is talked about me, or what I wind up playing, be it stadiums, or a life of smoky bars and dinner theaters, I will never consider myself a sell-out.

 

The previous point made, about claiming to be "about the music," is dead on. While I'm in the ranks of Used-To-Be-Gene Simmons fans (His over-marketing has started to get on my nerves), he could never be considered a sell-out, primarily because he's all about the money, and broadcasts that to anyone who will listen.

 

There was a point to this rant, and I hope I've made it, because now I've forgotten it.

[daofktr]

as a friend of mine once said:

"i'm not selling out...i'm buying in!!!"

selling out is all in the attitude, imho. i want to succeed, and i baldly affirm that i would like to get paid as well as get heard, but i primarily want to play music. i'm a lesser person when i'm not playing with others. in my area, it's so difficult to find compatible, competent musicians i would take a commercial, soulless brothel of a gig just to play. then i'd ride that thang and network my ass off to find folks that do what i want to do, that love music as well as love to spread the fun. then i'd bounce that slut gig inna boston minnit.

thank you ver' much, and don't forget to tip yer waitress!

[Bass_god_offspring]

I think that most people that say that bands have "sold out" just becuase they have become popular are pretty stupid (not you Jeremy). i mean c'mon, if u were in a successful band and you got popular becuase you worked hard, are u automaticly some type of sell out???!!

 

in my town, so many people think that Papa Roach sold out becuase they got big really fast and now are really popular. just becuase they grew up here, and they are popular, so does that make every band that works hard and has a bit of luck a sell out??!!!!

 

people that think all popular bands are sellouts are ignorant idiots in my opinion.

[TShakazBlackRoots]

people that think all popular bands are sellouts are ignorant idiots in my opinion.

Err...not quite. The key word in your sentence is 'ALL popular bands'. I personally don't think ALL popular bands are sell-outs (whatever that means). There are some, however, who make a huge diversion from their earlier intentions PURELY for fame and money....NOT their art? Shouldn't that be termed as selling out?

Or is it 'simply the need to feed one's own kids'.

[Bass_god_offspring]

true. it just gets really annoying where i live becuase so many people talk about it.

 

i don't mean anyone who thinks that a band is a sell out, i am talking about the people that hate a band becuase they got a record contract or what have you.

[jeremy c]

It's interesting that high schoolers with no jobs are experts on what "selling out" means.

 

And that they will stop liking a band when the band actually manages to get paid for what it does.

[a boy named sue]

Didn't Dylan "sell out" by jumping on the folk band wagon? Then all the folknicks thought he "sold out" when he started playing electric...

 

If I ever "sell out" I'm jumping straight back onto ebay to buy more gear!

[Adamixoye]

Here's something I wrote a long time ago about the different levels of selling out. Not all selling out is equal. By the way, after I posted these, Sweet Willie posted his approval, so you know I must be on to something :-D. These are my 4 Levels of Selling Out, from most to least offensive:

 

(1) Doing something that you consider morally or ethically wrong for money.

(2) Doing something you consider humiliating for money.

(3) Doing something that you don't consider wrong or humiliating, but wouldn't do otherwise if it were not for the money, that is, you would rather do something else, but you're going for the money.

(4) Taking something that is within the spectrum of what you would do, you happen to be getting paid for it, and you tailor it to what makes you the most money.

I could add a fifth: (5) Receiving money for anything you do artistically, but I don't consider that selling out. Others seem to, though.

 

When we talk about musicians selling out, we are talking mostly about Levels 4 and 5; occasionally we are talking about something between 3 and 4. But that's the worst case. There are far worse forms of selling out. Here are some examples of the five levels:

 

(1) Becoming a hitman.

(2) Going on most reality TV series (for me anyway; others wouldn't consider that humiliating)

(3) Taking the corporate job instead of pursuing your dream

Between (3) and (4) You love music but hate country; you take a country gig for the money

(4) You write a song that you would normally write; you tweak it so it's radio-friendly.

(5) You write your music exactly the way you want it, then you get paid for it

 

Even a band like Metallica that has supposedly sold out is doing no worse than Level 4 (I don't really believe that they are, but that's another argument); some people accuse you of being a sell out for a simple Level 5, which as I said, I don't believe should count but I'm throwing in there for the sake of argument.

[a boy named sue]

(1) Doing something that you consider morally or ethically wrong for money.

(2) Doing something you consider humiliating for money.

(3) Doing something that you don't consider wrong or humiliating, but wouldn't do otherwise if it were not for the money, that is, you would rather do something else, but you're going for the money.

(4) Taking something that is within the spectrum of what you would do, you happen to be getting paid for it, and you tailor it to what makes you the most money.

Love this list. Brittney and Madonna pashing would have to be at least a 3, I'd say a 2. I think a lot of world wide tours are in the 3 cattegory....my 2 cents