What led to the 'demise' of Black US bands?

[TShakazBlackRoots]

I grew up on EWF, Gap band, Kool and The Gang, Chic (The group with Nile Rogers...btw, who was the bassist? He was superb), Sly Stone, James Brown, Isley brothers, Jackson 5, Mint Condition, Midnite Star, Surface, Flyte Tyme (Prince, Jimmy Jam, Terry Lewis), Whispers, S.O.S Band, Atlantic Star, Roger & The Zap Band and many more.

What happened to Black live bands?

 

This demise hasn't affected so much the 'white bands' coz we have many good and solid Rock, Metal and Alternative bands doing well.

You gat U2, Guns & Roses, Rolling Stones and many 'old' and new Rock and Metal groups still recording and touring heavily.

 

Could it be that Hip Hop inadvertently destroyed Black musicians, or was it lack of label support?

[jeremy c]

Rap

Samplers

Turntables

[Fuego]

Yea Jermery got most of it there, but there are some still around, Lenny Kravitz, 7Dust's lead singer is black, along with Kid Rocks Drummer. Dont 4get, Rolling Stones bassest currently is black. There just harder to find due to Rap being created.

 

Fuego

[Jimbroni]

Could it be that Hip Hop inadvertently destroyed Black musicians, or was it lack of label support?

You don't consider Hip Hop to be music?

 

I don't think bands are in demise as much as the industry is promoting performers more than bands right now. At least for top 40.

 

Most of the bands you mentioned were R&B or Funk and didn't have all the sequencers and beat boxes and synth's that todays R&B and Funk artists have.

IMHO they are bands with a different look, the problem is the industry tends to find the leader of said band and exploit them.

 

Treading very carefully, I think the R&B groups you mentioned are a little more popular with white audiences today than Black audiences. I maybe wrong, but whenever I've been to see black R&B groups from back in the day, there always seems to be more whites than blacks.

I think that young black musicians tend to be more cutting edge when it comes to accepting the latest sounds and technologies for making R&B and danceable music, they tend to be less nostalgic than young white musicians.

Certainly not true for everyone.

Also, there are alot more mixed bands these days as well.

[butcherNburn]

I agree with jeremyc. I'd like to add a little more...

 

Part of the problem is the current definition of R&B. It is definitely NOT rythem and blues. Any song, performed by a black person that is 50% or less rap is R&B. Kind of like the current definition of Jazz. Take a song, preferably one we all know, add a Sax, sometimes in place of the vocal, and put it on the Jazz station. Or even more hilarious, take a Country song, put pre-programmed dance beat #5 behind it, and you have the latest club/dance hit. Another thing I hate is singers, with a good voice and vocal range have to sing like they're being electrocuted.

I got off the subject a bit I know, I know...

 

Another sad thing about the state of music today is the music of the future. More and more kids (more Rap music is purchased by suburban white kids in the US than black) don't play instruments. They want to be MC's. They are never even exposed to anything with a decernable musical instrument. This scares me. It really worry about the music of tomorrow.

[davebrownbass]

Earth, Wind and Fire are playing Sunday evening here in good old Dallas...with Chicago.

 

That kinda tells the tale...music evolved. These guys are still playing...but it's now an oldies circuit.

 

It's the marketplace...if there were crowds of young people lining up to hear one of these bands, they'd still be out there.

 

There is a lot of music I miss; but I'm only a crowd of one.

 

I see no reason to "blame" the record companies in some kind of conspiracy theory. They are in business to make money...the bottom line makes all the difference.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

I don't think bands are in demise as much as the industry is promoting performers more than bands right now. At least for top 40.

 

I believe that there's some truth to this.

 

Also, over the past few years it seems to me that more hip-hop artists are touring with live musicians. I'm sure it has helped that the Roots are meeting with critical and commercial success (and have backed other hip-hop artists on several televised music shows). The Black Eyed Peas are backed by live musicians. Mos Def performs with his band, Black Jack Johnson, which has included (and maybe still does?) Doug Wimbish on bass and Bernie Worrell on keys. However, I'd say many of the groups TSBR has named were more prominent than some of these groups (maybe not the Roots, and we'll have to see about BEP).

 

OutKast is hot. They use live musicians in the studio. Do they also use live musicians when they tour?

 

Living Colour released another album this past year, although they don't seem to have the same popularity as they did in the late 80s/early 90s. Aren't Fishbone and Bad Brains still truckin' along? But again, not with the same prominence as they did 10-15 years ago, and not at a comparable status to some of the bands mentioned in the opening post.

 

I think rap, turntables, and sampling have contributed, but I also think there were other circumstances as well. For example, the Jackson 5 certainly had other issues going on that were not related to factors external to the band. Last time James Brown came through Chicago (earlier this year) tickets at the House of Blues were over $70!

 

Originally posted by TSBR:

Could it be that Hip Hop inadvertently destroyed Black musicians...

Isn't a lot of hip-hop performed by black musicians?

 

Also, TSBR, you might want to try a search for some prior threads using the search terms "hip-hop" and "hip hop".

 

Peace.

--SW

[tarkus]

What led to the demise of big band swing?

 

My professors would always blame it on the Jukebox.

[tnb]

Beats me.

 

I have been in 2 bands in 25 years where all the members were Black. One was a jazz quintet (high school) the other was a band on a cruise ship. In both cases it was just the way it worked out.

 

I will say that as far as Jeremy's statement of "rap, turntables and samplers", I remember these being greeted by young Black musicians with great enthusiasm as early as '79. Musicians, rappers, DJs, singers all working together to create some "brand new sh*t". This was in Indiana, of all places.

 

Money got involved, whole thing went to Hell.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by butcherNburn:

More and more kids (more Rap music is purchased by suburban white kids in the US than black) don't play instruments. They want to be MC's. They are never even exposed to anything with a discernable musical instrument.

I'll though I agree partially, I'm also going to play a bit of the devil's advocate here.

 

Is it that students interested in music choose not to play an instrument to work on their poetry, err, literary, err, rap skillz? Or, are there students who would not have taken up an instrument in the first place now pursuing music through hip-hop, while we still have the same number of instrumentalists? If there are fewer instrumentalists among our youth, is it because of rap and the desire to MC or because of financial threats to and actualities in school music programs?

 

Compared to some earlier hip-hop that was so grounded in just rhymes and beats, hip-hop music today is more complex, with more live instrumentation used in the studio and live. I believe that there is "discernable" instrumentation on many current hip-hop recordings -- whether from samples or live instruments, and even when the mix favors bass and drums. There's a reason why artists pay folks like Doug Wimbish, Pino Palladino, Preston Crump, Eric Coombes, Raphael Saadiq, Ron Carter and others to lay down live bass tracks on their hip-hop albums.

 

Explanations for the kind of changes TSBR is talking about are rarely tied to only one or two factors, but usually a complex variety of interacting factors.

 

Peace.

--SW

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Sweet Willie:

Is it that students interested in music choose not to play an instrument to work on their poetry, err, literary, err, rap skillz? Or, are there students who would not have taken up an instrument in the first place now pursuing music through hip-hop, while we still have the same number of instrumentalists? If there are fewer instrumentalists among our youth, is it because of rap and the desire to MC or because of financial threats to and actualities in school music programs?

I dunno, if kids now are anything like I was (and everybody else I went to school with who played), they want to develop whatever skills they need to play the kind of music that most inspires them. Most of the guitarists I knew in school were really into Eddie Van Halen and Hendrix, so they focused on being able to "shred," which led to metal getting really popular in the 80's. I respected EVH and Hendrix, but they didn't send me totally over the moon the way the Stones and Beatles did... so I focused on tone and dynamics and playing more to the song, rather than chops. Some people with monster chops might say I was just being too lazy to learn them, or not capable of it, or whatever... from their perspective that's how it looks, but I have no doubt that had I wanted to be a "shredder" I coulda been. I just wasn't interested and still am not.

 

Likewise, if kids are really turned on by rapping then they're going to learn to rap. They don't have any motivation for picking up an instrument, although there are starting to be more hip hop artists who do make use of live instruments now so maybe that will change. I do miss really good singers, I must say. Rock is full of Eddie Vedder wannabees/Creed clones (UGH), then there are pop divas (double UGH) and the pseudo R&B vocal gymnasts (more talented, but still BLAH). I'd rather listen to a good rapper!

[butcherNburn]

Point taken on many aspects, Sweet Willie. Thanks for the correct spelling on "discernable" as well. Good points by others too.

 

I have noticed more musicians in the background of live rap acts these days. But in my humble opinion, I think many of these players are veterans with a need for work. Not many kids want to be that person, they would rather see themselves as one of 5 guys in background going "Huh, Yea, Come On, Come On". If that's what they like, more power to 'em. Follow what moves you. I'm just worried about the music of the future.. It can be a good thing for working musicians, more work.

 

I also have to admit that I am a little biased. I live in a very urban area and it's hard to find a person under 20 that doesn't listen to Rap/Hip Hop, Dance/Techno, or whatever. At least we have some hope with the Latin scene. Although I don't care for it much myself, they do play instruments.

 

* Bring music education back to the schools.

* Listen to, and make music you like.

 

I still have all my oldies on CD, I don't need the radio. I find people and music I like, when that gets boring, I find out who inspired them, and go there. I always felt like I was born 20-30 years too late for the music I love anyway.

 

Another good post by TSBR you keep things interesting, even if I drift away from your point.

[dcr]

I don't think the question was whether there are still black people playing music. That's not a hard question to answer.

 

I think the question had to do with a certain genre, which, I agree, is for the most part missing from the current scene.

 

Why? I don't know. Hip-hop features mostly black musicians, but not musicians in the sort of genre that TSBR asked about; so it seems to be an alternative (rival?) to that genre. Jeremy seems basically right about that. And BnB seems basically right that R&B has fallen on hard times. What's to keep the genre from coming back? That depends on what the future holds. At present, though, a "revival" would probably be viewed as an oldies thing, or (gasp!) a disco throw-back.

 

That said, damn I'd love to see the Funk Bros. And an MGs reunion.

[butcherNburn]

Originally posted by tarkus:

What led to the demise of big band swing?

 

My professors would always blame it on the Jukebox.

True true...

[BenLoy]

It seems to me that there's been a resurgence of black bands playing real instruments lately.

 

The Roots are probably the best example out there...those guys are tight!

 

Fishbone and Bad Brains are still packin' them in at live shows, even though they're not all over MTV.

 

Sorry, TShakaz, I don't see what you're talking about.

[A McLeod III]

Got to chime in right here. Every day that i wake up, I feel I'm from another planet and don't belong here. I feel that musical taste are for sure being steered by the music industry's bottom line. Supply and demand in effect. Sell an image-not music is the order of the day. I'm 44, a music educator (high school band director), Studio Owner and performing musician. I was a horn major in college and was always told to earn my chops. All that very technical Kool and the Gang Stuff (before JT), EWF, Tower Of Power- my college professors were encouraging that stuff back then. I remember that the climate at the end of the 70's'early 80's was everybody huddled to the wee hours practicing and every weekend, you found some type of gig to play and everybody played.

 

I teach young folks and too many are only interested in how cool old school sounds. They don't won't to learn it. They can sample it, freak it on the computer and get a similar product. They aren't intrested in learning scales, modes, harmony etc. (Although with last years blockbuster, "DrumLine", everyone wants to play drums )

 

That's the industry focus. Let Beyonce' Shake it. Let Nelly, Ludicrous, and even Usher teeter on the edge of gangsta/suggie Pop land. This is whats being promoted as music and that's what's killing the future of not only black bands but rock bands as well (they are not what they once were either and are only experiencing a minimal resuugeance in popularity). All of our "foundation" music is faltering-from gospel to classical/opera, jazz and even blues. Try going into a Target, Wal-Mart, K-Mart, etc. and sample the blues selections. The sadddest part of all of it to me is that there are still thousands of killer musicians, bands-real artist still out there that can't get a break and can't get heard outside of very small select venues because of this. Something needs to change. The music has become no more than a reflection of whats left of our society-the narrowing of what was a very prolific culture. It seems the ship is sinking

 

A Soul Survivor Trying To Stay True To Music-Check Out Archie\'s Joint @ SoundClick

[doc taz]

I don't see anything wrong with learning the old school stuff. The real trick is to somehow intergrate all these influences, know them well, and then at least try to step away from them enough to create something new and unique. That's often easier said than done.

 

I'm exploring electronica and darkwave these days, but I'll be damned if I chose to completely disavow my classical, jazz, blues, rock, and metal influences.

[tnb]

Benloy said:

It seems to me that there's been a resurgence of black bands playing real instruments lately.

NYC doesn't count , there is plenty of everything in NYC. You probably can't throw a rock without hitting the drummer for an Inuit death metal band there.

[-Will-]

These guys are doing alright.

 

http://www.robertrandolph.net/

[The Fonz]

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

Could it be that Hip Hop inadvertently destroyed Black musicians, or was it lack of label support?

You don't consider Hip Hop to be music?

i don't think whether or not hip-hop is considered music, which i think we can all agree that it is, is really the point.

 

the fact is that the black community is really only interested in hip-hop or r n' b. and i find it really sad that hip-hop afficionados don't really understand the roots behind their music. i had heard stories and decided to try an experiment. i played a number of songs that i'd heard in popular hip-hop for some people that could quote bible and verse of hip-hop liturgy. they could all quote several examples, some quite obscure, of songs that a particular work had been sampled in but none could identify either the original song or the artist. thusly i think musical skills are falling out of fashion.

 

as far as r n' b, that's never really changed. it's not until much later that fans go into who played what on which song. a lot more people know who james jamerson is now than in the 60's.

 

that said, there is some sign of life. i think it's too early to call it a resurgence. the roots are one example, dmx traveled with a live band, there is a renewed interest in rock outside of white people. it's slow gowing, but it's coming along.

 

as far as black musicians go, there's no shortage that i've noticed. the only problem is they're not selling out and making top 40 garbage and we all know how much recogition guys like that get.

[wraub]

Originally posted by tnb:

Benloy said:

It seems to me that there's been a resurgence of black bands playing real instruments lately.

NYC doesn't count , there is plenty of everything in NYC. You probably can't throw a rock without hitting the drummer for an Inuit death metal band there.

Actually, there are a couple of Inuit death metal bands here that I know of.

There's one called "37 Words for Snow",

Another is called "It's Really Freaking Cold", and still another is called "Tastes Like Whale".

 

None of this is true.

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[bassaddik]

Rap

Samplers

Turntables

 

though it IS a generalization, i find myself in agreement with Jeremy once again. There are a few black bands around , but less than before--

i thank Hip-Hop for that-

Empty-V had a show... a reality show called the making of Da Band or something like that where the illustrious PuffDaddyPDiddySeanJohnCombs showed his inc redible talent by puttign together a Hip Hop "Band" that contaied not a single musician- yet the show is called Da Band ---

enough said...

a REAL band? i just picked up Prince Live in Las Vegas ( DVD) and though it is a loose jam set- Prince shows us all the REAL DEAL. the band is on fire throughout and His Funkiness reminds us where the funk really is. and Rhonda Smith? she is the only woman i would marry !!

[butcherNburn]

So I guess the answer to your question is the type of music is not hitting the demorgraphics that are extremly profitable.

 

I'd really like to blame it on American Idol but it started before that.

[jeremy c]

On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of extremely well-qualified Black jazz musicians. Young, formerly young, middle-aged, or old.

 

There just aren't enough gigs.

[wraub]

IMO it happened in part when the labels realized that blacks were buying white music, i.e. rock music, and upped production of rock music.

Sure, whites bought black music too, but that was largely following the model of the 50's-mid 60's which had doo-wop, jive, and dance bands largely comprised of black players.

The mid to later 60's and on saw the Woodstock-"hippie folk" thing that led more to rock being the dominant radio entity in the 70's and 80's, and most rock at that point came from white players. And it still does.

The audiences for "black" music are still out there, but the music being sold to them has changed, so they may have to look for it sometimes.

The audiences for the bands you referenced can still find them (Chic is playing a free outdoor afternoon show here soon, for example), and these bands play out more because they often don't have a current label deal but have catalog to tour on and merchandise to move. In this sense you might say they are more successful than ever, making or losing money on their own merits.

As for hip-hop, it could be argued that, because it is a "black" music that white audiences buy the labels have upped production on it, diminishing output of rock product, thereby inadvertently helping to "destroy" "white" music.

 

Peace,

 

wraub

 

p.s. Bernard Edwards was the bassist for Chic.

[The Fonz]

rock was black music before buddy holly and that damn cricket.

[TShakazBlackRoots]

Isn't a lot of hip-hop performed by black musicians?

Some of you are way off the mark. Did I say there weren't black musicians? That's why I made it a point to give examples of bands that existed at the time. Funk as a genre is still alive and kicking. Listen to Lucy Pearl, Outkast etc.., however, we do not see many musicians in the mainstream.

You can call it Top 40 rubbish, but the truth is, most musicians would love to be in the Top 40. The groups I mentioned in the original thread were all super musicians in the Top 40.

 

BenLoy mentions Bad Brains etc.. I haven't heard of these groups! Personally, I feel when a band is well known in places like Africa, that's a true Globally popular band. The groups I mentioned to this day, you'll hear in African clubs and radio.

These guys could put on a live show. Have you been to a Hip Hop show? Even with a live band, it's a struggle to enjoy the music live as compared to it's studio version.

 

I respect Hip hop alot, but I'd love to see alot more live bands.

[TShakazBlackRoots]

Oh yeah, I watched Robert Randolph Family band on BBC2, brilliant band.

[73 P Bass]

I just bought an incredible album from a guy named Prince. He plays with an inter-racial band with guitars, and bass, and horns, and keys, and all sorts of great things. Close your eyes and imagine R&B / Funk. Press play and you've found it.

[getz out]

Since when did we have to worry about the color of a musician's skin? What is this thread about?

 

Turn off the TV and listen to the radio; there's no such this as color radio.