The demographics of bass builders

[_Sweet Willie_]

Does anyone else share my perception that an insanely large majority of bass builders in the USA and Canada (electric, EUB, ABG, URB) are white men?

 

We've talked here before about the underrepresentation of women among the ranks of bassists, but it just struck me that I can't think of a single female bass builder! Not one! I've actually never even had a female tech work on one of my basses. >

 

Off the top of my head, I can only come up with one non-white bass builder: Scott Ambush of Ambush Basses (also quite the bassist!). (Although I can think of several whose racial/ethnic background I don't know.)

 

There must be some other Americans and Canadians building basses who are not white guys. Anybody know any? Anyone else noticed this? I've never been to something like NAMM, but maybe some of you have seen more diversity among the manufacturers there.

 

And, assuming my observation is right, why is this? There are certainly a lot of non-whites and women playing bass, why not leading a business building 'em too? Are they poorly represented among apprentices and schools of luthiery as well?

 

Is the ethnicity or gender of a builder important? No -- the quality of the instrument built is. But I sure am curious why there are a bunch of white guys building basses, and not many representatives from other groups.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Peace.

--sweet'n'low

[saxofunk]

Sweets, I agree with your perception.

 

I think it extends into woodworking, architecture, furniture design, and related fields in general... at least as far as the public sees it.

 

Look at woodworking & home improvement shows, ads, and magazines. The players have been white males, with the exception of Home Time and a some of the new shows (like Extreme Makeover Home Edition) that are putting power tools and job tasks into female hands.

[Thomas Wilburn]

I also agree.

 

Maybe it's just one of those areas where the lack of diverse role models leads to a lack of diversity. It could be a vicious cycle.

 

On the other hand, how many luthiers have gotten their start because they enjoyed playing the instrument and wanted to get close to it? Could the relative sparseness of female bass players be a cause?

[lug]

Men by and large have more experience working with their own wood than women.

 

(walks out of thread whistling innocently)

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by Thomas Wilburn:

On the other hand, how many luthiers have gotten their start because they enjoyed playing the instrument and wanted to get close to it? Could the relative sparseness of female bass players be a cause?

But a separate explanation would be necessary to explain why there are so few builders from non-white racial/ethnic groups. There are certainly, for example, plenty of black and latino bassists.

 

There seem to be fewer female carpenters, cabinetmakers, and woodworkers in general. Could it be that the low number of women bassists combined with the low number of women working in related woodworking fields decreases the likelihood that women will pursue careers as luthiers?

 

Nonetheless, as with bassists, there are plenty of woodworkers from all racial and ethnic backgrounds. So this explanation doesn't work as well in explaining why there seem to be so many white bass builders.

 

Perhaps the gender and race/ethnicity explanations will be different. Certainly, though, the "role modeling" idea carries weight in both instances.

 

Originally posted by lug:

Men by and large have more experience working with their own wood than women.

 

Originally posted by lug:

(walks out of thread whistling innocently)

Off to see a tech about adjustments to your instrument, lug, or do you do your own "set-ups" these days?

 

Peace.

--SW

[Adamixoye]

Is it accurate to say that electronics are also more or less dominated by white men? I seriously don't know.

 

I don't mean electricians, I mean people interested in electronics. The type of people who might take a class on it in high school.

 

Sorry if this is gratuitously stereotypical, it's just a thought.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by Adamixoye:

I don't mean electricians, I mean people interested in electronics. The type of people who might take a class on it in high school.

 

I don't know.

 

In the public high schools where I've worked, the electronics classes (usually part of a vocational education, technical education, or applied sciences curricula within the school) were disproportionately male, but balanced racially/ethnically.

[zeronyne]

SW, this is a great question to mull over, since the control group is SO well defined and closed, as we are talking about the US and Canada.

 

For such a diverse musician population in terms of ethnicity, there seems to be little correlation between bass player and luthier.

 

So, as others suggested, I think we need to look to the apprentice/master relationships that used to exist to see the origin of a homogeneous ethnic profile in a profession.

 

But I think that there is another factor, and this is pure conjecture. I think the business capital required to start up a small boutique-level business often needs the support of a financial institution, and despite federal and state antidiscrimination statutes, I think it's much harder for an African American to get a loan for such a speculative business plan.

 

As for the lack of women in the biz, I think that again goes back to the unwillingness of master bass luthiers to "invest" in female apprentices.

 

But the bass guitar is only 50 years old. I think as the instrument matures, we'll see an emergence of superstar craftsmen of many ethnicities and genders. It's all about evolution. After all, I just can't imagine moden builders like Carey Nordstrand not taking on an apprentice based on skin color or gender.

[Thomas Wilburn]

Originally posted by Sweet Willie:

Originally posted by Thomas Wilburn:

On the other hand, how many luthiers have gotten their start because they enjoyed playing the instrument and wanted to get close to it? Could the relative sparseness of female bass players be a cause?

But a separate explanation would be necessary to explain why there are so few builders from non-white racial/ethnic groups. There are certainly, for example, plenty of black and latino bassists.

 

There seem to be fewer female carpenters, cabinetmakers, and woodworkers in general. Could it be that the low number of women bassists combined with the low number of women working in related woodworking fields decreases the likelihood that women will pursue careers as luthiers?

 

Nonetheless, as with bassists, there are plenty of woodworkers from all racial and ethnic backgrounds. So this explanation doesn't work as well in explaining why there seem to be so many white bass builders.

 

Perhaps the gender and race/ethnicity explanations will be different. Certainly, though, the "role modeling" idea carries weight in both instances.

 

--SW

You raise a good point, and honestly I have trouble thinking of an explanation. The part of me that fights the Man immediately points to the relative financial security required to take up a trade like bass-building. It's certainly more risky than cabinet-building, and such a level of credit seems something more likely to occur in white males--but I'd still expect a few more minority luthiers to exist.

 

I will say that among the computer science/electronics geeks I know, the vast majority of them are white, usually followed by newer minorities to this country, and then with African-Americans and Latin-Americans bringing up the rear. However, there are still more than enough minorities of any and all persuasions to be noticeable and significant.

 

One more point: perhaps these rare luthiers of non-white persuasion exist, and we're just not aware of them. I can rattle off the names of a few great builders, but not a whole lot, and every now and then I'll notice a custom model hanging in a shop somewhere with a name I've never seen before. How many small-time bass builders exist below our horizons? And should we be giving them our business?

 

Does Ibanez count?

 

Just thinking aloud. This is a really interesting topic. I'm curious to see if anyone can come up with a really good explanation.

 

Wait a second, does this have to do with a dissertation? Cause if not, I think someone had better get back to work.

[Thomas Wilburn]

Damn you, Zeronyne, posting the same point at the same time!

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by 0-9:

But I think that there is another factor, and this is pure conjecture. I think the business capital required to start up a small boutique-level business often needs the support of a financial institution, and despite federal and state antidiscrimination statutes, I think it's much harder for an African American to get a loan for such a speculative business plan.

 

I heard some excellent research presented about this. The research was multi-method (quantitative and qualitative), though I believe specific to the Chicago area. The professor was looking at the relationships between lending institutions and small businesses, particularly that between loan officer and business owner. He found no differences based on the race of the either party in terms of obtaining the initial loan (i.e., relevant anti-discrimination policies might actually be working), but that the strength of the business relationship over time was stronger when the loan officer and borrower shared similar background (e.g., race/ethnicity).

 

Originally posted by 0-9:

But the bass guitar is only 50 years old. I think as the instrument matures, we'll see an emergence of superstar craftsmen of many ethnicities and genders. It's all about evolution. After all, I just can't imagine modern builders like Carey Nordstrand not taking on an apprentice based on skin color or gender.

I agree. I wonder very much about the ethnic and gender backgrounds of some of today's luthiers' apprentices/assistants and the demographics of student populations at schools of luthiery.

 

I'm also sure that there are women and racial minorities working in the factories of some of the bigger shops -- like Fender, Carvin, et al.

 

Maybe if I knew more about the career trajectories of builders like Tobias, Steinberger, and Sadowsky and some of the promising younger builders like Nordstrand or Stambaugh, it would help me understand where opportunities for diversification would be likely to happen and for whom.

 

Originally posted by Signor Wilburn:

Wait a second, does this have to do with a dissertation? Cause if not, I think someone had better get back to work.

Um, tangentially. Very tangentially.

 

It sure does sound like a great future research project for someone with an advanced social science background and an interest in finely crafted instruments. Hmmmmmmm, I wonder who fits that bill?

 

Of course the broader theoretical question would be related to how members of groups underrepresented in craftsman-type occupations are able or not able to break into such a career. It would overlap nicely with my sociological interests in race and education, and add to them some knowledge of the sociology of work and occupations. The project methodology would of course be primarily qualitative in nature, and the grant applications would request funding for travel to visit the workshops of luthiers all across the USA and Canada, and, of course, to purchase a few sample instruments. I would need passes to NAMM for a few years and some backstage time with artists who use the instruments built by these builders. I would also need funding to travel to visit some educators like Jeremy Cohen and Dave Brown and pay them for lessons. Why? Well, just because!

 

Anyone need me to write some money for a research assistant or two into the grant applications? (Maybe Ace and wraub could benefit from such an opportunity to help get Seismic off the ground and into the faultlines... )

 

Maybe dcr could help. There's got to be something relevant to all this related to hedonism and Plato. Whaddya think, prof?

 

What was that about a dissertaton, T-Dub?

[Thomas Wilburn]

Hm, a recent Communication graduate could probably find a way to be research assistant on such a project, as long as it meant he didn't have to live in Chicago. Bit cold for me--I mean, him.

[ClarkW]

As for the man vs woman disparity, I would suggest that it's a product of our civilizations' propensity to propagate behaviors from father to son and mother to daughter. Boys play with tools and erector sets and help Dad work on the old Chevy, while the girls help Mom bake cookies and learn to sew. Up until very recently (20th century), gender lines and roles were very well-drawn. Now they're getting all grayed up (not making a judgement, just stating a fact), and we tend to be more aware of places where it's still black and white.

 

And as for the black and white (and red and yellow and all shades in-between), I think several people are spot-on in their assessment of the disparity probably partly stemming from historic class distinctions, partly from historic musical divergence (Europe has a much stronger history in stringed instruments than Africa).

 

That comment from the lender/borrower survey is pretty insightful. When it comes to maintaining relationships, I'm culturally different enough from most of the black people I meet that even though we've got no reason to dislike each other, we also can't come up with many reasons to become close friends, either. Where does the schism end? I dunno. I could point fingers at a few people on both sides who aren't exactly helping matters, but I think for the most part we as a global civilization are moving very slowly (glacially, even) towards a better racial harmony.

[BigKahuna855]

daisy rock was founded by a lady bassist

[zeronyne]

Originally posted by BigKahuna855:

daisy rock was founded by a lady bassist

...who is the wife of the owner of schecter. I'd call that an advantage.

[PickPunk]

Sweets said:I'm also sure that there are women and racial minorities working in the factories of some of the bigger shops -- like Fender, Carvin, et al.

Im not 100% sure if this is true or not but i've heard a few times that the majority of people who work in guitar factories for big manufacturers are women because they generally have smaller, slimmer hands than men which allows them to put together smaller parts in less time than men.

[The Fonz]

who knows and who cares. to say the opportunity isn't there is misinformed. eventually if the interest within black/latino/female/etc communities arises the opportunity is there.

 

as far as loans go, wraub and i are white. we can't get a loan or a grant to save our lives. no one is going to give out money to a small business just because. however there are several grants available specifically for women or minority owned businesses.

 

the idea that the opprtunity doesn't exist offends me. do you know how many things are available to everyone but me? i know plenty of out of work tradesmen, including myself. people with tons of skills and experience who are having trouble feeding their families. yet there are programs designed to find skilled trade jobs such as carpentry and masonry for women, no experience necessary, free training, because they're women.

 

i had minority friends that went to schools i couldn't afford for free even though their parents made more money than mine because they went on minority education grants.

 

look, ponder the question all you want but please don't try to say that the man, or whoever you want to blame, is denying the opportunity.

[dcr]

At this late date, I can't imagine there's much to keep a person from developing luthiery skills if they've a mind to, & from setting up as a luthier. I doubt enough players would care who built it as long as it was a good bass. And so on. I suspect it's just a matter of the different choices that individuals have made, and that by the time we've cooked up an explanation for the low numbers, the numbers will have shifted.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by Ace Cracker:

... to say the opportunity isn't there is misinformed. eventually if the interest within black/latino/female/etc communities arises the opportunity is there.

 

...the idea that the opportunity doesn't exist offends me.

 

...look, ponder the question all you want but please don't try to say that the man, or whoever you want to blame, is denying the opportunity.

Dig it, man, I hear you. There's only one post in this whole thread that suggests the homogeneity among builders might possibly be related to a lack of opportunity. I think most people who have posted seem more curious about patterns of occupational choices (and also traditional gender roles), and not issues of opportunity.

 

Originally posted by Ace Cracker:

who knows and who cares. ... eventually if the interest within black/latino/female/etc communities arises the opportunity is there.

I don't know who knows, but I care -- I'm curious. Whenever I see a whole lot of homogeneity related to a profession, or organization, or whatever, I'm curious.

 

Why isn't the interest there? I would expect at least some interest to be there. Why isn't it, or why isn't it apparent? Or maybe I'm just not familiar with enough current builders.

 

Peace.

--sweet'n'low

[tarkus]

I know a place where there are hundreds of non-white, mostly asian female instrument builders........

[Fuego]

here is a girl luither http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/

 

As far as i know shes good, my teacher gets his classicals set-up there. When i tried 2 get a price quote for installing a Badass Bass bridge on my American Deluxe P-bass tho she couldnt get me one. Said she needed templates to do the routing even tho its already routed thru body, so i dont think she works much on basses, or knows anythin about basses. So for #'s, theres more women and ethinic builders and player today than ever, soon itll mix up so much this thred will be all BS, heck, am hispanic lol

 

Fuego

[Thomas Wilburn]

Hey, and she's cute!

 

But seriously, that's an interesting example, Fuego. I dig the name, too.

[davebrownbass]

Well, African American luthiers invented the....banjo!

 

Now I want to tread lightly on stereotypes, and I honestly don't want to perpetuate myths.

 

In my experience with African Americans (10 years as supervisor of hospital cleaning crew, 10 years of teaching to include substantial mix of A/A, 8 years as a young child whose best friend was black, 5 years of working daily with my assistant, a black woman) I've drawn a few conclusions.

 

The oral history tradition emphasizes the importance of story in one's life. It places high value on the immediacy of experience. It places high value on interactivity.

 

These things are lost if you become a cloistered luthier.

 

I, for one, would love to see the contributions of less "waspy" builders. But as I review all the talented students I have, I can't think of one who'd be interested in selecting wood and aging it for a few years, and then taking 6 months to make it into a quality instrument. It's not "immediate" enough.

[Fuego]

Well, African American luthiers invented the....banjo!

Tryin to think of a african-american playin a banjo,,,,just doesnt come 2 sight lol buy i could c everyone playing a banjo bass

 

Fuego

[wraub]

I would venture that a combination of factors at work has caused the disparity.

Women are not "traditionally" tool users in the sense that men are, that's a fact. Fortunately, this has changed somewhat, but ultimately it's an uphill struggle for that change as the hidebound "traditionalists" strive to maintain their positions as "protectors of sacred knowledge".

 

As some have said, the economics of buying specialized tools for luthiery are daunting. Developing the skills to use them, designing and prototyping instruments, market research and parts sourcing, the actual build, placement and sales of product, shipping, etc. are a lot to chew on, even for someone with an active interest in both woodworking and musical instruments, especially when you factor ROI.

 

There are a lot of Latinos and Blacks working the construction trades who seem to have tools for their jobs, so lack of access to tools is likely a limited influence on luthier stock.

Here, though, I think environment plays a role, in that it's considered more "traditional" (there's that word again )i.e. acceptable

to enter the building trades through familiar relationships than to venture into the relatively uncharted.

Clearly there are long standing patterns of building and musicality in the traditions of both the Latino and African cultures, so the divide is puzzling but explainable I think in light of the economic and environmental realities of the situation.

 

Additionally, most builders are players as well, and, being a minority to begin with, there would be likely be fewer bass players than guitarists anyway, and fewer of both than say, percussionists.

And these players are likely happy enough playing instead of building, regardless of what instrument they play.

 

DBB, I think you may also be on to something there as well with the societal trend for immediate gratification mucking things up.

 

I say more people making more instruments to make more music is a good thing, provided the wood holds out.

And racism is bad, mkay?

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[lug]

I worked many years in the electronics field and at first there was a dirth of minorities and women. This began to change primarily due to the military. There was not one woman in my college electronics classes and very few minorities, but many have come from a military background into the field. So the obvious solution is for the military to build less bombs and more basses to correct this situation, thank you.

[The Fonz]

Originally posted by wraub:

There are a lot of Latinos and Blacks working the construction trades who seem to have tools for their jobs, so lack of access to tools is likely a limited influence on luthier stock.

Here, though, I think environment plays a role, in that it's considered more "traditional" (there's that word again )i.e. acceptable

to enter the building trades through familiar relationships than to venture into the relatively uncharted....

 

And these players are likely happy enough playing instead of building, regardless of what instrument they play.

no pun intended, but i think wraub hit the nail on the head. i've certainly seen a ton of minority craftsmen in cabinet shops and jobsites. the difference is that it's possible to make a good living at a trade. whereas in the instrument building field (luthiery i think is a more specialized word) i've got a long road to hoe.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Thanks all for the thoughtful responses. I think that the Seismic fellahs have certainly identified one very important factor -- we're already dealing with a very small group who are willing to take on the demands of something likely not to be as lucrative as other craft trades, i.e., bass building. Then my question asks about a subset of an already very small group!

[rumpelstiltskin.]

Originally posted by Sweet Willie:

I'm also sure that there are women and racial minorities working in the factories of some of the bigger shops -- like Fender, Carvin, et al.

there are plenty of black folks working for peavey -- moreso than white. i think most of the folks working in plant 2, where we build the cirrus bass (and used to build the millenium bass), are also black. more men than women there, but as in all factories, there is still an abundance of skilled women.

 

the head luthier is white, but perhaps we'll spawn the first prominent black luthier. Meridian, the town i live in (and the town in which peavey is located) is mostly black -- approaching 50% and about 8%more than white. there are also 12 filipinos in meridian, or there were in the 2000 census.

 

at any rate, the only prominent luthier i could think of that is potentially not white (non-hispanic) is ray roger of r basses. he builds them in puerto rico, so though his name is not puertorriqueño, there is at least a chance that he is. i can't seem to find a web site for his work (so no pictures), but there are plenty of reviews at harmony central, bgra, and talkbass.com.

 

and though he's not a minority in his home city of tokyo, the guy who started atelier Z basses apprenticed with roger sadowsky and is now the builder of sadowsky tokyo basses.

 

as with all notions of social change, patience and willingness to put your money where your mouth is will work wonders. corollarily, i find that the same people who can't stand jobs going to china shop at walmart a lot and are happy to buy inexpensive import basses.

 

robb.

[jeremy c]

I had some good bass repairs done many years ago by Jane Hunter, whose other achievements include being the mother of Charlie Hunter. (The guy who plays the custom made Novax instrument with three bass strings, five guitar strings and fanned frets and does a very impressive (and musical) job of playing bass and guitar at the same time).